New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[TomD]

Your legs still feel the resistance of all bike gears just like you would on any bike. The only difference is that you can now use the throttle to get to higher speeds faster. When coupled with a PAS sensor, the ride is exhilarating. With no worries of broken chains or freehubs.

How much different it is than riding a torque sensing rear hub? I can appreciate that higher power would be exhilarating but not really sure it comes from anything but that?

 

[tomjasz]

Retail: $5999 USD; early bird: $4999 USD

RESERVE YOUR XD for $40 USD (for CAD)

No, just no! in my view it’ll be a mechanical nightmare.

 

[Deafcat]

BBSHD / Ultra
None of them require frame mods, custom rear sprockets, multiple chains. The only thing common is a $20-$50 chain that people replace every 300-1000 miles. That is IT.

Wait a second, have you actually owned these motors and ridden them? (not knocking, just making sure). You will replace Cassettes, chainrings, chains, A lot more than $20-50 per 1000 miles.

You said yourself "armchair research", I hope you don't mean that literally... The differences between these motors/drivetrains DO matter in dollars and cents value, to regular riders like us.

How exactly do you figure this new system is "more repairs in the long term"? We've already tested Ultras, BBSHDs and XD's against each other, and know this is false... We didn't do it from armchairs, we did it with real bikes.


We've been riding the XDs since 2020, and all of the other motors (including direct drive and geared hub motors) since each of them respectively came to market, often on Biktrix models just as early as anyone else to market.

I do appreciate your feedback and enthusiasm/critique, we're passionate about continuously improving the product as it comes to market.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Launching this with PAS not ready and with a 6k price tag doesn't seem like a good idea to me... no matter how you spin it and fill the airwaves with half truths.
I think you may have over estimated the current offerings maintenance problems and the desire to go exceedingly fast on a bicycle whilst ghost pedaling.
Obviously there are many various needs out there and that the ebike market will (hopefully) grow much larger and become a more common means of transportation. But I still don't see any meaningful segment wanting this much power or complexity. Sure there will be a handful of hot rodders who may appreciate this... I hope it's enough to warrant your investment.

 

[teskow]

Too many negative opinions out there. Henry Ford did not like or want any advancements in his automobile design or engineering advancements. He thought it was perfect as is. He had no choice though as it was happening all around him and Ford had to eventually go with the flow or die as an auto company.
Nothing stays the same. Never has and never will.

 

[rtp]

Read most but not the entire thread, and see both positives for some and negatives for others depending on purpose.

Very cool it can mount up in place of an Ultra, and nice to see a non-China new motors, but that really only matters (to anyone other than Biktrix) if the motor/controller/etc. are made available separately - and has real parts availability. If so - good potential to sell for new DIY builds, replacements, and upgrades. If not, well - I really like Biktrix as a company, good/real support response from my experience and what I've seen, but their pricing vs value seems to be becoming a non-starter for me at least. Quando hubs, Tektro brakes and no-name forks for Monte Capro for $6k claimed retail? Sorry but no, Luna Z1 for $4k all day long. Sure, you can 'upgrade' but I'd expect solid components for $6k, and if this is indicative of where Biktrix is going, they'll put themselves into a pretty nice high $/low sense market IMO. The XD seems to be the same Juggernaut Ultra frame that's been out for years, which is certainly good for profit margins, but the Montes are even more a 'pure China bike' than most 'pre-upgrades' so will have to see where prices wind up.

No PAS is a non-starter for a majority of eMTB use (e.g. those expecting and wanting both a workout and do technical riding), except for the 'dirt bike replacement' crowd - which as someone with a fair amount of MC off-roading myself, I can appreciate but it's a smaller market, and one that doesn't belong on a majority of MTB/bike trails. Not a fan of even making that statement, as people should be capable enough of not doing stupid, but well, history and plenty of youtube/other videos prove this one's not the case far too often.

Could be solid for hunters, camping, even RV-ers, cargo, city delivery services, and even 'bike taxis,' as well as a Sur-ron/e-motorcycle replacement or on-road transportation.
Those looking for BBHSD type builds nowadays (vs Ultra, M600, ..) are also a candidate, as they generally fit into the cadence or throttle preference.

Likely will have good benefits to drivetrain reliability - how often people are replacing chains/cassettes/etc. depends a fair amount on how they ride it, but still, there's value in 'don't worry about it' level of reliability (if achieved) versus 'start checking your chain religiously after a few hundred miles' etc. Also interested to see if it's ever offered as a DIY package or not - there are one-off Shimano -> Bafang conversion brackets out there, and a few others. Seems like the initial motor may be wider than the Ultra, but it could evolve into selling motor, controller, and adapter/motor mounts across different platforms, although many would be waiting and expecting torque-sensing PAS...

Following for interest to see where it goes over time.

 

[pennybags]

Totally agree @Gionnirocket and @rtp

1. Price point for that bike is not even close. Everyone is selling the same frame bike for thousands less (bolton / m2S / pretty much any rebadge shop etc etc).
2. The motor cannot be fit on a carbon fiber frame - at 300Nm of torque, the monte carpo will break. So this motor is aluminum only.
3. No PAS at launch is probably not an oversight - no one starts out saying the PAS is an "option". It is more likely chances are it didn't work from the start and now there's a scramble to make it work.
4. Most controllers (like ASI) have built in signal processors for torque / cadence sensing. So saying "hardware is there and we can connect using water proof HIGO" means nothing. The bike does NOT have PAS regardless of what controller you put on it - KT / ASI / Grin (which is ASI). Adding PAS is not as trivial as you are making it out to be. If it was trivial, 2 years is a LONG enough time to put it in.

I think there is a consensus building that this is a good technology demonstration, but far from ready for prime time. If PAS hasn't worked in 2 years since dev, chances are it is not going to work any time soon. I'd give it a couple more years before basic stuff is working on this motor.


Saying its ready for primetime and not having basic features is just not ideal. If Biktrix would say that it is a good initial product and that they are working on improving before selling, that alone would take care of so much of this negative feedback.

 

[Deafcat]

No PAS at launch is probably not an oversight - no one starts out saying the PAS is an "option". It is more likely chances are it didn't work from the start and now there's a scramble to make it work.

Nope, it's because Sensor Systems take much longer to develop than anything else. In my professional experience, automotive/industrial grade sensors are one of the longer development cycles out there, and this is no exception. We could have put PAS in from the start but I'm not willing to cut corners or compromise on strict standards and testing (we will manufacture more PAS units than any other assembly early on, due to realities of strict testing cycles in batches etc).

 

[m@Robertson]

Assuming the motor has no problem with enough torque when limited to 750W, it's that "generous supply of amps" that is the next concern. Whether a motor has a 0-100 RPM range or 0-100,000 RPM range doesn't really matter after gearing--it still has performance curves proportional to that range. It's still going to start at zero from a stop and if geared for a top speed of ~40 MPH or so, climbing a technical trail up a mountain that limits your speed to ~10 MPH no matter how much power you have, will require efficiency in the lower 25% of the motor's RPM range, whatever it may be. Do you have any data like the below for the motor setups you're talking about?

No graphs here. I thought these were basic principles, self-evident. Bigger cog = an easily understood effect that everyone can agree on, etc. I'm not concerned either with how the motor behaves if hobbled to 750w. But more to your point, I was commenting on speed-solved-with-rpms to show how it can be done, conceptually, as part of a discussion where the question was whether such a thing (a bike that can have both the low end and hi) can even be done. The answer is yes.

But speed isn't what I would be interested in. People who look at bikes as recreational tools don't even consider that all that power can be used to create something useful that you can jog alongside.

The bikes that can best use left-hand drive haven't been built yet. But for sure the obvious use is cargo. Look at what DHL and UPS are experimenting with on last-mile deliveries. Fully load up a Carla Cargo style trailer thats so big it needs its own motor and braking system. 160 Nm thru the chain with that? Be farking carrrrreful. And speaking personally as a cargo bike builder/rider, I know for sure I'd be happy to safely leave 160 Nm behind.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Nope, it's because Sensor Systems take much longer to develop than anything else. In my professional experience, automotive/industrial grade sensors are one of the longer development cycles out there, and this is no exception. We could have put PAS in from the start but I'm not willing to cut corners or compromise on strict standards and testing (we will manufacture more PAS units than any other assembly early on, due to realities of strict testing cycles in batches etc).

I think that you are missing the point that many are trying to make.
The criticism is that the entire system should have been put on hold until PAS was ready... Especially with the 6k price tag.
So I'll ask again as this should shed some light even for you... How are pre_sales going?

 

[scrambler]

If for whatever reasons you feel compelled to bash a company based on your personal preferences, why would they even consider engaging with you ??

 

[stanmiller]

A drivetrain that mimics the engagement of a geared hub motor without all the unsprung weight while gaining the mechanical advantage of mid-drive placement and lots of power. I can see the want.

Even with a simple cadence PAS you have a winner.

 

[Gionnirocket]

A personal preference that seems to be the consensus of 50% of comments.
And how many of the enthusiastic well wishers are putting their money where their mouth is?

 

[scrambler]

Nothing wrong with your preferences, we are all entitled to our own. This is not a contest where someone needs to win.
I was just commenting on the expectation of answer given the tone being used

 

[JimK067]

I put my money in. Bafang is dead with canbus. Biktrix is offering a solid way forward. It's also fun and exciting to be involved in new technologies.
Now, three logistics questions:
1) Walk me through how the PAS will be attached/connected to the 1st batch of XDs.
2) How much custom programming will I be able to do? How will it work?
3) Can the XD eventually accommodate a IGH?

 

[Gionnirocket]

Nothing wrong with your preferences, we are all entitled to our own. This is not a contest where someone needs to win.
I was just commenting on the expectation of answer given the tone being used

Understood... I realize that I can be course (to put it politely)
And if you think about it... If I don't receive an answer it will only be because it is not in their interest to answer. I'd be more than happy to lose
I realize a level of bs is to be expected in all marketing, but there is a reputation here for loads of it.. Hence my breaking.

 

[pennybags]

Nope, it's because Sensor Systems take much longer to develop than anything else. In my professional experience, automotive/industrial grade sensors are one of the longer development cycles out there, and this is no exception. We could have put PAS in from the start but I'm not willing to cut corners or compromise on strict standards and testing (we will manufacture more PAS units than any other assembly early on, due to realities of strict testing cycles in batches etc).

You are re-inforcing my point.
If PAS was easy to do, 2 years is a reasonably enough time. No one is developing "sensor systems" - 90% of motors out there are just integrations of existing sensors. Let's be a little real here - If you are truly developing "sensor systems" - that is a company by itself. I mean the whole set of sensor systems you talk about are all off the shelf and readily available with some modifications.

If you are not willing to compromise then explain this - If there is NO PAS, why are you portraying something on the product that doesn't even exist? The whole ad / promo is disingenuous. The change gear / cassette stuff is completely unnecessary and made up.

This is worse than compromise - this is false advertising.

 

[pennybags]

A drivetrain that mimics the engagement of a geared hub motor without all the unsprung weight while gaining the mechanical advantage of mid-drive placement and lots of power. I can see the want.

Even with a simple cadence PAS you have a winner.

The issue is that they dont have it. That is the point of this whole exercise. There is NO sensor. The peron in the video is literally clown pedaling.

Cadence sensor is literally $5 off the shelf component the plugs right into SI (see BBSHD mods). There is no dev needed to make it work.

 

[pennybags]

I put my money in. Bafang is dead with canbus. Biktrix is offering a solid way forward. It's also fun and exciting to be involved in new technologies.

Let me help you based on the information above.

Now, three logistics questions:

1) Walk me through how the PAS will be attached/connected to the 1st batch of XDs.

This PAS will not be possible. They dont have it yet and it is in "development" with option to do it at a later date. In short it is not happening. here's why .....A true "torque sensor" requires the sensor to be on component that experiences the torque - so rear axle or the bottom bracket. Neither are possible right now with the current design without significant mods.

I fully anticipate Gen. 1 to not have any PAS sensors - or cadence sensor at best.

2) How much custom programming will I be able to do? How will it work?

ASI BAC 8000 series is a very common controller -I believe Luna has this controller too for the Surron.. tons of people with BBSHD and Ultra program them, so should be easy to do. Even if it is "locked down", you can always wipe it and reset it and program it.

3) Can the XD eventually accommodate a IGH?

Dont waste your time and money with an IGH - the speed and gear ratio are not related at all. You will literally be ghost pedaling the whole time. You might as well put a belt drive cog on it and save the money and headache.

 

[scrambler]

3) Can the XD eventually accommodate a IGH?

In theory nothing stops it from accepting an IGH, BUT a custom carrier to handle the Rear motor sprocket and the brake rotor on the left side would have to be possible and developed for the Targeted IGH.

I recently went through this exact same question, As I am planning to install a Kindernay VII on my dual drivetrain bike, and it is not as trivial as one would think.
In my case I was lucky that my bike has a 160mm rear dropout, and that allowed me to design a custom Carrier and torque arm that would allow a 148mm Kindernay VII IGH to be adapted and support both the brake rotor and the large rear sprocket on the left.

So it would take selecting IGHs that can support the 197mm x 12 dropouts, then know what are the Motor and pedaling chain lines of the new motor, then review if any of the considered IGH could be adapted to carry the left motor sprocket. If all that works, then adapters would have to be modeled and machined.