New class 3 or more hub motor bikes starting with the Biktrix Swift and the Hilleater Phaserunner

O

opimax

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
Atlanta
I have owned only hub motor ebikes (Stromers) since my 1st bike in 2011. I was not happy with the service I have received and since purchasing moved to Atlanta where the closest shop is in Tennesse so they are out. Currently the 2 most interesting bikes I am aware of for the near future are the Swift and Phase runner. am interested in finding which company is more reliable, which bike seems to be a better a design and if there are other bikes which fall into this category. For me , I am looking for 100 miles plus on slightly rolling rails to trails and paved streets, carrying additional batteries and built in lights would be good. The KISS principle applies. i don’t needs gps or other fancier electronic, reliability is the priority. Torque sensor a must and the smoother the better, high prioriy!

Simple thing like appearance my choice goes to the PR I prefer a diamond frame and feel it should be sturdier. Doesn’t come in black though.

Other and more opinions are the requested. Things like different specs on the motor, are Grin modifications worth it ? I like the ability to recharge and save brakes if reliable. Etc...anything is welcome
 
I like rear hubs with torque sensors. I want a high end bike that can do 28 or better. Every time I ride I want to make sure I can do 100 miles without being on low power. I am willing to carry 2 spare batteries in panniers. I want a bike that I can ride and not fix , not replug connectors , not get error messages on every ride. I have an almost unlimited budget for the right bike. a WattWagon design for reliability with a rear hub and a battery that does not stick out would be great in theory.

The HE motor doesn’t matter too much to me if it performs as required, reliable and grunt is what counts.

My bikes don’t leave my sight when I ride so fancy GPS and accessories are not a concern. Quality components are extremely important to me.
 
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As for the Hilleater Phaserunner, I'm going for a test ride tomorrow. I'll do a short review when I get back home.
As for the GMAC, David, the shop owner says that there is little difference between that motor and the Ezee motor. Personally, if I do end up buying a Hilleater I'll want one with the GMAC motor, even if it costs a bit more.
 
I know in the weeks to come Biktrix is supposed to be releasing some type of dual battery system that is cross compatible with all their bikes
 
Timpo, thx for posting I missed the regen was only the GMAC, the difference is bigger then I remember . I thought it was the Ezee also. I think I would like the GMAC more then I thought at first, bummer! I also would appreciate fine tuning too but not as important as the regen. Money difference would not matter.

Dual batterries interests me for the way it uses batteries evenly. I will still end up swapping on many long trips and carry a spare for a total of 3.
 
Took the Hilleater for a decent test ride today. Here's my short review in point form:
1. This is just a regular Juiced bike with some go-fast parts. The Juiced is an economy priced bike and it shows.
2. The bike rode and stopped well. I'm not tall, but the bike felt cramped.
3. The power is awesome. This damn bike flies. Anyone who thinks hub motors aren't good on hills needs to ride this bike.
I went up a long hill that would have had me down to around 14 to 16kph on my carbon road bike and was able to easily hit 41kph! 50kph comes up fast on the flats.
4. 52volts, but there is a possibility that a 72 volt battery could in installed. I can't imagine how fast this bike would be with that setup.

I think I'm going a different route with my next ebike purchase (light e-road bike), but if down the road I want to purchase a really fast commuter I know where to look.
 
Which motor was it? Would yo recommend the the motor on a nicer bike?
 
I would have to know more about the Ezee motor prior to going that route. With the GMAC, it not just about the proportional braking and available power, it also incorporates a MUCH stronger axle as the wire no longer run through it. AND, the torque arm that's incorporated into the GMAC design makes for a much sturdier install. It's very well done, and I believe it's a game changer.

All that said, it's still a design where people are going to need to pay attention to heat build up (just like other gear driven rear hubs and mid drives). A really long hill, sustained wide open speeds, especially in really warm weather, are going to get it warm enough where it's going to need some time to cool off. The Phaserunner CA3 combo controller and display can be set up to automatically cut back the available power when things start getting too warm - also an excellent feature of the GMAC w/variable regen. -Al
 
opimax said:
Which motor was it? Would yo recommend the the motor on a nicer bike?
Click to expand...

I sure would, with no hesitation, but I'm a fan of hub motors. Don't care for the idea of shifting gears under power with a mid drive, or worry over cutting the power to shift gears. Hub drives make this brain dead simple.
 
I'd heard that regen usually isn't more efficient than good riding technique, given the extra weight. Is GMAC's regen somehow better? Does it add drag when coasting or affect braking distances?
 
The answer to that question requires you to understand the difference between how a direct drive and a gear driven rear hub work. Until the GMAC, gear driven hubs have had a clutch that disengages them when coasting, making regen impossible to achieve. The direct drives have no clutch, which is exactly why you hear about some "draggy" sensation when coasting.

The comments made that allude to the fact "regen" is ineffective are mostly true with the direct drive, though some living and riding in hilly areas (like me!) will find much more use for it. It does not allow for a lot of braking under about 15mph, and the amount of power going back into the battery is pretty much insignificant. Engaged at 30mph while rolling down a big hill, you WILL notice the direct drive regen!

With the GMAC, the motor is turning 5 times faster than a direct drive at any given speed, due to the 5:1 gear ratio built into the geared hub. Without being real exact, this means if we could by-pass the gear drive's clutch (making it a direct drive with 5:1 reduction gears) to make the motor turn full time when coasting (like the direct drive does) we will have 5 times the regen available as compared to a direct drive. Doesn't sound like much, but it's a huge deal. Enough to bring the bike to a complete stop in short order using only regen. With the 5:1 gears, the regen is now so strong, engaging it fully at speed could cause the rear wheel to lock up under some conditions. That's why the GMAC features "variable" regen, so it can be controlled according to the riders wishes. With the motor turning 5x faster, regen is now so effective, rarely would you ever want ALL of it ALL of the time!

When it comes to replacing some of the power that's been used with the regen, we now have a significant amount of power that's worthy of talking about. Some are claiming up to 10% - which can be read real time directly from the CA3 display.

The last piece of this wizardry is about the controller and display. They have it tweaked so that when coasting with no regen (it's variable right, we have this option), a very small amount of power is fed to the motor, so the drag normally felt when coasting with a direct drive, is off set just enough where the drag is eliminated - letting the bike coast as if it had a clutch that allowed that. The power to do this is very small, but it will require that the power be turned on.
 
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AHicks said:
The answer to that question requires you to understand the difference between how a direct drive and a gear driven rear hub work. Until the GMAC, gear driven hubs have had a clutch that disengages them when coasting, making regen impossible to achieve. The direct drives have no clutch, which is exactly why you hear about some "draggy" sensation when coasting.

The comments made that allude to the fact "regen" is ineffective are mostly true with the direct drive, though some living and riding in hilly areas (like me!) will find much more use for it. It does not allow for a lot of braking under about 15mph, and the amount of power going back into the battery is pretty much insignificant. Engaged at 30mph while rolling down a big hill, you WILL notice the direct drive regen!

With the GMAC, the motor is turning 5 times faster than a direct drive at any given speed, due to the 5:1 gear ratio built into the geared hub. Without being real exact, this means if we could by-pass the gear drive's clutch (making it a direct drive with 5:1 reduction gears) to make the motor turn full time when coasting (like the direct drive does) we will have 5 times the regen available as compared to a direct drive. Doesn't sound like much, but it's a huge deal. Enough to bring the bike to a complete stop in short order using only regen. With the 5:1 gears, the regen is now so strong, engaging it fully at speed could cause the rear wheel to lock up under some conditions. That's why the GMAC features "variable" regen, so it can be controlled according to the riders wishes. With the motor turning 5x faster, regen is now so effective, rarely would you ever want ALL of it ALL of the time!

When it comes to replacing some of the power that's been used with the regen, we now have a significant amount of power that's worthy of talking about. Some are claiming up to 10% - which can be read real time directly from the CA3 display.

The last piece of this wizardry is about the controller and display. They have it tweaked so that when coasting with no regen (it's variable right, we have this option), a very small amount of power is fed to the motor, so the drag normally felt when coasting with a direct drive, is off set just enough where the drag is eliminated - letting the bike coast as if it had a clutch that allowed that. The power to do this is very small, but it will require that the power be turned on.
Click to expand...

Interesting. How does GMAC compare to TDCM - barring the obvious weight / size issues ? Wondering if GMAC is a smaller version of the TDCM IGH version ?
 
Sorry, I'm not that familiar with the TDCM geared hub design. From a first glance on their website it would appear they are much less power than the GMAC (GMAC = 1000+ watts vs. 350-500w) and they use an internal controller where the GMAC uses an external. I could have been looking in the wrong place though? -Al
 
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Ravi Kempaiah said:
TDCM makes variety of hub motors for different customers.
Their customer line includes Stromer, BESV, Grace, Brompton, KLEVER, Superpedestrain etc.
See below:

https://www.tdcm-motor.com/customers/

They also do custom motors.
Click to expand...

You are right - TDCM definitely is popular, and potentially a little advanced.

I am curious what the differences (if any) there are between the GMAC and the TDCM variations?


Another question - does Stromer have gears - I mean IGH style gears ? or do they not use any gears ? Haven't ridden one before.
 
pennybags said:
Another question - does Stromer have gears - I mean IGH style gears ? or do they not use any gears ? Haven't ridden one before.
Click to expand...

Please read more here and you may learn few things about the product:

electricbikereview.com

Stromer ST2 - Technical review

I have learnt quite a bit from reading other people's experiences on this forum. As a researcher, I enjoy learning new technologies and keeping up with the pace. Close to 18 months ago, I put together this presentation for my own understanding but being lazy, I never published it anywhere...
electricbikereview.com electricbikereview.com

Stromer motor does not have gears and their prototype with IGH style gears is not available for public purchase.
 
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I watched a Grin video where the owner explained how the GMAC's regen worked. The motor is always supplying a bit of power to overcome the motor's slight drag.

I'd forgotten about the regen until I went down a steep hill. I thought the brakes were dragging because I wasn't going that fast compared to the steepness of the hill. After discussing this with the shop's owner I realized it was the motor's regen at work.
It was kinda cool to watch the display and see watts going back into the battery while going down a hill.

As far a comparing motors, I can't since the shop only had two Grin powered Hilleater on hand and both had the GMAC motor.

As far has overheating goes, Grin's owner has a video out that shows him riding a bike with a hub motor up and down a very long hill a number of times to see if he could get it to overheat. He couldn't.
Here's a link to the video:
 
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