Need Software Support on my 2017 BULLS Bike...Resolution Found.

[RoadWrinkle]

restricted to comply with local regulations

Federal regulations allow up to 750w motor as long as the 20 mph and 28 mph limiters are used; the law is the same in all 50 states. I think Bosch, Brose and Yamaha program conservative motor regimes to increase reliability and reduce warranty claims.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

I really thought they felt the same powerwise

Thanks for the real world experience info you had testing all three motors. eMag came to their conclusions by timing riders on the same terrains; and scoping motor output, a fairly objective way to judge. Looking forward to issue #10 myself.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

I never recall Brose or mfg. usng their motors suggesting they are designed for those seeking mountan bike experience with a little help up the hils(if you could tell me where to read that- i'll stand corrected).

From BULLS USA website: "The E-STREAM EVO models are classic bikes with a little extra push, whether you’re pedaling on or off road." Check it out for yourself (Link Removed - No Longer Exists).

 

[fxr3]

Federal regulations allow up to 750w motor as long as the 20 mph and 28 mph limiters are used; the law is the same in all 50 states. I think Bosch, Brose and Yamaha program conservative motor regimes to increase reliability and reduce warranty claims.

I would not argue that. But yamaha- for sure -knows how to make stuff powerful yet reliable. I'm going with conspiracy theory- ala iPhones. Give att exclusive, let everyone buy one on known inferior network- then take exclusive away, allow Verizon to sell iPhones, sit back and watch all those att peeps buy another phone and switch to Verizon!!!!
Let first ebikers stumble around on 250w- feeling the potential- then after that slows- give me a 500w drive that really kicks butt! Lol, kinda.

 

[fxr3]

From BULLS USA website: "The E-STREAM EVO models are classic bikes with a little extra push, whether you’re pedaling on or off road." Check it out for yourself (Link Removed - No Longer Exists).

I stand corrected! I don't think they admitted to less power to attain those results. And don't really think they have noticeably less power, imo. They are for sure silky smooth, quiet and low key and still my choice of mid-drives. Firmware hops em up a bit- aaaawwwwwwww. Sweet

 

[fxr3]

Thanks for the real world experience info you had testing all three motors. eMag came to their conclusions by timing riders on the same terrains; and scoping motor output, a fairly objective way to judge. Looking forward to issue #10 myself.

I read #9 and saw those results and cannot deny them. If they ride like those guys on videos I've seen on ebike magazine, they are much better riders than I ever was dirt bike or bicycle, they are well able to notice the deficits on one motor to the next!

 

[fxr3]

Thanks for the real world experience info you had testing all three motors. eMag came to their conclusions by timing riders on the same terrains; and scoping motor output, a fairly objective way to judge. Looking forward to issue #10 myself.

In fairness to all, I personally had to pedal pretty hard and fast to get any of them up to 20mph in Long Beach- before I ran out of straight away and had to slow to make turn. I'm also 57 years old with heart failure and base my opinions of ebike power after owning and riding st1 and st2!

 

[JRA]

Federal regulations allow up to 750w motor as long as the 20 mph and 28 mph limiters are used; the law is the same in all 50 states.

Federal law does regulate 750w/20 mph (level ground) but there is no Federal statute for 28 mph, only in the states that have adopted the CA Class III law. Also there is no Federal law that states PAS is required for operating an e bike. And some states have 1000w limits and some have none at all. Always best to check what your states regulations are before operating an e bike and where you can ride it.

 

[fxr3]

I would not argue that. But yamaha- for sure -knows how to make stuff powerful yet reliable. I'm going with conspiracy theory- ala iPhones. Give att exclusive, let everyone buy one on known inferior network- then take exclusive away, allow Verizon to sell iPhones, sit back and watch all those att peeps buy another phone and switch to Verizon!!!!
Let first ebikers stumble around on 250w- feeling the potential- then after that slows- give me a 500w drive that really kicks butt! Lol, kinda.

Agreeing with your "collusion " theory- really.

 

[E-Wheels]

Federal regulations allow up to 750w motor as long as the 20 mph and 28 mph limiters are used; the law is the same in all 50 states. I think Bosch, Brose and Yamaha program conservative motor regimes to increase reliability and reduce warranty claims.

Think on a global basis to where these manufacturers mostly supply. The US market is only a fraction of their overall sales. 250W is the maximum permissible where I live.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

Think on a global basis to where these manufacturers mostly supply. The US market is only a fraction of their overall sales. 250W is the maximum permissible where I live.

And the US sellers for these brands want to be able to get the bikes "AS IS" from the oversees manufacturers to limit their overhead cost. I guess my point is the boys in Europe need to think more globally and start designing USA-only bikes and discover a new untapped market here. Trying to force European standards on US consumers seems like swimming upstream.

 

[fxr3]

Think on a global basis to where these manufacturers mostly supply. The US market is only a fraction of their overall sales. 250W is the maximum permissible where I live.

I personally think on global basis.

And the US sellers for these brands want to be able to get the bikes "AS IS" from the oversees manufacturers to limit their overhead cost. I guess my point is the boys in Europe need to think more globally and start designing USA-only bikes and discover a new untapped market here. Trying to force European standards on US consumers has never worked for any company or product accept high-end Automobiles.

I dont no why the limits. But anybody that can design, build and sell a bike as cool as bulls(or any high end edirt bike) likely is not targeting chinese factory workers for a method of transportation.
The surely realize the USA and socal are the biggest markets for pretty much anything and everything. Period. And, sinceEurope is somewhat saturated, once americans figure out transportation aspect(combined with fun), or just the mountain bike part of it- USA will dictate how ebikes are made, imo. We are known consumers, most with the ability to afford ebike and 300,000,000 strong. The japanese dirtbike and KTM depend ON USA to stay afloat. Btw, i wonder how long until yamaha is making more than just motors? And honda, suzuki and kawi get in the game. The future is bright for ebikers!

 

[E-Wheels]

And the US sellers for these brands want to be able to get the bikes "AS IS" from the oversees manufacturers to limit their overhead cost. I guess my point is the boys in Europe need to think more globally and start designing USA-only bikes and discover a new untapped market here. Trying to force European standards on US consumers seems like swimming upstream.

Yes totally agree, and these improvements and upgrades will come in time. Greater accceptance of these drives and competition will give the US more market share and a bigger voice to drive change

 

[LimboJim]

I would not argue that. But yamaha- for sure -knows how to make stuff powerful yet reliable. I'm going with conspiracy theory- ala iPhones. Give att exclusive, let everyone buy one on known inferior network- then take exclusive away, allow Verizon to sell iPhones, sit back and watch all those att peeps buy another phone and switch to Verizon!!!!
Let first ebikers stumble around on 250w- feeling the potential- then after that slows- give me a 500w drive that really kicks butt! Lol, kinda.

The real problem I see with more powerful eMTBs is TRAIL ACCESS in the long run. 500W is still pretty reasonable, but folks like Luna, HPC, Stealth and Optibike "peddle" 3000W and more! Sure, they generally disclaim these eMotos as "for use on private land only," but we all know folks will ride them wherever...

In my region of the good ol' USofA, the predominant MTB association, New England Mountain Bike Ass'n (NEMBA), outright opposes the use of pedal assist on any and all MTB-designated trails. They specifically call on the Int'l MBA and local land managers to condemn and ban pedelecs, lumping them in with these high-powered eMotos that can reach 50mph, but which cannot easily be differentiated from lower, more reasonably powered ebikes on sight. Unless they're going 50mph, of course, but trying to chase them down would be cray.

NEMBA's lobbied hard to get my state (MA) to keep calling all ebikes "motorized vehicles" regardless of Federal guidelines, technically prohibiting me from riding 90% of my area's best singletrack. I ride during "off-peak" hours and have avoided detection for two years now, but fear "No Electric" signage to come. NEMBA says that allowing true pedelec (no throttle) eMTBs on their trails a slippery slope of sorts, one that would create a "management nightmare." It didn't help my cause that someone literally tore up some "non-motorized" trails near me with a two-wheeled vehicle recently, presumably with an eMoto as it was near a densely populated area and no one heard it happening.

For anyone who cares to read it, here's NEMBA's "Open Letter..." It's well-written, sensible, and endorses accommodations for "senior citizens or people with disabilities" I'm 54 and endure chronic Lyme Disease symptoms, and I tend to agree with many of their positions. Marketing and promoting high-powered ebikes, especially ones that don't need to be pedaled, should focus on the motocross segment, and true pedelec eMTBs to the 50+ and "differently-abled" MTB crowd.

 

[bob armani]

I am feeling contrary today(and i cant help respond:/

Im feelng contrary today, and this post will likely not help anybody...... i rode brose powered bulls45, a habike with cx motor and a yamaha powered giant at long beach expo. I really thought they felt the same powerwise, and reconfirmed that the other day by riding a bosch cx again. I never recall Brose or mfg. usng their motors suggesting they are designed for those seeking mountan bike experience with a little help up the hils(if you could tell me where to read that- i'll stand corrected). There is nothing natural about walking up a 4-1 slope with no effort in low gear, just as it doesnt feel natural moving along at 28 mph on st2 with minumal effort.

The great emountainbike magazine that called brose power feeble and worse were the ones that suggested software manipuation could improve performance. They also promised in issue #10 there would be a article about motors from different mfgs, pros and cons, etc.
Detailing these questions we have about mid drive motors.
Now, may 10, still no issue #10 or any mention on their website or facebook why #10 is late. You would think after talking smack about Brose, they would want to be on time detailing why they think Brose is underpowered.
I am also curious why any of these companies do not come up with a substanially more powerful mid drive- seems like it would be a good seller

Great points Fx3! I would also be interested in issue #10 to see why this controversy with the brose motors are now coming to the surface. MTB mag needs to back up their claims about the motor before they can release the issue, so perhaps it is taking longer than expected?? If anyone sees it, give us a holler. It would be a great addition to this thread to see what their findings are IMHO!

 

[fxr3]

Great points Fx3! I would also be interested in issue #10 to see why this controversy with the brose motors are now coming to the surface. MTB mag needs to back up their claims about the motor before they can release the issue, so perhaps it is taking longer than expected?? If anyone sees it, give us a holler. It would be a great addition to this thread to see what their findings are IMHO!

Q

Great points Fx3! I would also be interested in issue #10 to see why this controversy with the brose motors are now coming to the surface. MTB mag needs to back up their claims about the motor before they can release the issue, so perhaps it is taking longer than expected?? If anyone sees it, give us a holler. It would be a great addition to this thread to see what their findings are IMHO!

Emtb magazine officially gets thrown under my bus! They talk smack fearlessly, but 11(or 40) days late in publishing issue 10 with a supposed in depth look at the motors available for emtb bikes without a reason or apology says a lot about their operation. I guess I knew a free easy to read emag on ebikes was too good to be true. go figure. Someone needs to explain the - under promise/over deliver thing to them.

 

[fxr3]

The real problem I see with more powerful eMTBs is TRAIL ACCESS in the long run. 500W is still pretty reasonable, but folks like Luna, HPC, Stealth and Optibike "peddle" 3000W and more! Sure, they generally disclaim these eMotos as "for use on private land only," but we all know folks will ride them wherever...

In my region of the good ol' USofA, the predominant MTB association, New England Mountain Bike Ass'n (NEMBA), outright opposes the use of pedal assist on any and all MTB-designated trails. They specifically call on the Int'l MBA and local land managers to condemn and ban pedelecs, lumping them in with these high-powered eMotos that can reach 50mph, but which cannot easily be differentiated from lower, more reasonably powered ebikes on sight. Unless they're going 50mph, of course, but trying to chase them down would be cray.

NEMBA's lobbied hard to get my state (MA) to keep calling all ebikes "motorized vehicles" regardless of Federal guidelines, technically prohibiting me from riding 90% of my area's best singletrack. I ride during "off-peak" hours and have avoided detection for two years now, but fear "No Electric" signage to come. NEMBA says that allowing true pedelec (no throttle) eMTBs on their trails a slippery slope of sorts, one that would create a "management nightmare." It didn't help my cause that someone literally tore up some "non-motorized" trails near me with a two-wheeled vehicle recently, presumably with an eMoto as it was near a densely populated area and no one heard it happening.

For anyone who cares to read it, here's NEMBA's "Open Letter..." It's well-written, sensible, and endorses accommodations for "senior citizens or people with disabilities" I'm 54 and endure chronic Lyme Disease symptoms, and I tend to agree with many of their positions. Marketing and promoting high-powered ebikes, especially ones that don't need to be pedaled, should focus on the motocross segment, and true pedelec eMTBs to the 50+ and "differently-abled" MTB crowd.

From what I have read about history of mountain bikes and their fight to gain access to basically hiking trails, it shouldn't come as a surprise that mountain bikers will distance themselves from ebikes-regardless of wattage, power, disabled ebiker, etc. For good reason.
General public and those who spend much time hiking could care less about the subtle differences us fanatics may see as night and day.
Is it powered? Yes, but only…… STOP! Hiker or general public or mountain biker doesn't care about pedal assist. And for the good of most- the ebiker needs to accept that and ebike where the dirt bikes go. In socal, if you want to ride a dirt bike you go to the desert or Gorman.
Gorman is a state ran dirt bike park with thousands of acres that a ebike could safely coexist and possibly not even see a dozen dirt bikes all day. The mountain bikers can usually do it in almost their backyards(but they have to use pedal power.;/)
There are no gains to be had by general public.
Street ebiking, especially for transportation, the general public can easily be sold on- for every ebike= 1 less car. Eventual goal to create bike paths and everyone is a winner. I suppose with enough emtbs- the goal should be ebike trails- like skateparks, I guess.
BLM land is another possibility " this land is our land, this land is your land" where pretty much anything goes. Maybe there is some of that closer than you know- check it out.

 

[Brian Salisbury]

Long time lurker and decided to sign-up and post to this thread. I don't have a dog in this fight. My bike is from another manufacturer and I have no relationship with Bulls but I felt compelled to post because I don't like at all what I'm reading here. Maybe there are some extenuating circumstances but based on what I've read here the buyer's conduct is similar to what buyers try to do in other situations relating to different products and needs to be challenged.

I believe the manufacturer who said all bikes have the current firmware when they are shipped from the warehouse. Buyer decided to not support local bike shops and maybe save some money buying out of the area. Not a problem - his choice. The out of area retailer is at fault for not flashing the latest firmware. Now the buyer is angry because the local shops are expected to support him for free after he chose to not support them. The manufacturer appears to have made a good faith effort to help him, but his anger is directed at the manufacturer because they would not either cover the cost of of a local shop's labor or otherwise try to coerce a local shop to perform the upgrade for free. A better recourse would have been to contact the out of area dealer and see if they would reimburse $100 of what he paid to cover the cost of the local shop's labor.

What is offensive to me is is the use of social media, this forum in particular, into trying to intimidate the manufacturer to cover for the choice the buyer made or punish the manufacturer for not complying. Would have been better and in my opinion more honorable to suck up the costs and realize the $100 offsets the probable lower price he paid to the out of area shop. The customer is not always right.

I also just purchased a Bulls Evo Stream FS 2 Plus. This is my 2nd e-bike. I have to agree with John F here. For something like an expensive e-bike, it's in the customer's best interest to buy from a local dealer who can service the bike. The software update just barely came out, so I don't see how it is fair to criticize Bulls. It sounded like they were trying to make it right for the buyer. I want to see e-bikes and all the manufacturers and local dealers flourish. It's better for everyone. I bought my e-bike from Great Western E-Bikes in North Salt Lake, Utah. The customer service has been fantastic. The Bulls bike doesn't have quite the same power of my other e-bike, but I can still make it up all of the steep hills, and I get 3 times the range, which is so much better for peace of mind while riding. This is a high quality bike. So far I love it and would encourage anyone to buy from a local dealer.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

but 11(or 40) days late in publishing issue 10

Could be delayed because they wanted to include a new motor that just came out.

 

[fxr3]

Could be delayed because they wanted to include a new motor that just came out.

Could be. But, personally, maybe annaly too, I've opened that app almost daily since April 1st to read what they say about motors. All they had to do was mention issue was to be late, that would have sufficed. I'm still looking forward to it. Lol