Need opinions from Creo and Vado SL riders

[Rás Cnoic]

The battery doesn't bother me on this one. I know what you mean - its nice to have it concealed like the SL. But I think it fits the 'Land Rover' looks of the Brave. It's a Shimano 630wh battery so hefty in more ways then one! That's what I mean about it being a kind of no nonsense, go anywhere bike, for long expeditions on the muddy lanes and moorland tracks here, with fat ugly welds and fat tyres for suspension - rather then them just having a cheap & heavy coil front sus at this price like so many companies do. It's well thought out. They are talking about a system of racks front and rear and bags so it could become my shopping bike as well! Maybe that might justify it to the powers that be : )

Regarding the Fazua- I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean for bike computers? I don't have any. What I like about that system is it's equally as light as the SL motor (though smaller battery) and seems to get good reviews. And as a bonus you can remove motor and battery easily and ride the bike unassisted & light. As I ride 50% of the time on my normal bikes the idea of having both in one is attractive. Plus the e Adventure comes with either 650b wheels or 700c so you can pick how off road (bigger tyres) you want to go.

When I bought the Vado SL last October, it was the drop bars (and lack of availability then) of the Cairn e Adventure bikes that put me off. But as I say it has since won a load of awards and the new Brave looks more suited & interesting fit for cycling around here.

Should add that the Vado Sl is an extraordinary bike and I absolutely love it. I made the right choice for sure. Just suffering from wandering eye & thinking of new departures!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The battery doesn't bother me on this one. I know what you mean - its nice to have it concealed like the SL. But I think it fits the 'Land Rover' looks of the Brave. It's a Shimano 630wh battery so hefty in more ways then one! That's what I mean about it being a kind of no nonsense, go anywhere bike, for long expeditions on the muddy lanes and moorland tracks here, with fat ugly welds and fat tyres for suspension - rather then them just having a cheap & heavy coil front sus at this price like so many companies do. It's well thought out. They are talking about a system of racks front and rear and bags so it could become my shopping bike as well! Maybe that might justify it to the powers that be : )

The Cairn Brave looks to be a nice gravel e-bike with flat handlebars. The large battery is the bonus for range for sure. (At the moment, I can provide 480 Wh for my Vado SL. With the second Range Extender that would be 640 Wh, with 2.2 kg extra for both REs and their cables). Another bonus of Cairn is the fact you can remove the battery for charging. And, as you said, the Fazua motor is removable. Taken into account Cairn is a British company, you should also benefit from the manufacturer that is closer to you (probably).

Any information on the Cairn Brave weight?

Regarding the Fazua- I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean for bike computers? I don't have any.

Bike computers, heart rate monitors, Smart Control, name it. Specialized has won my heart with their electronics/connectivity, and I stay with the brand. Necessary to mention, Giant e-bikes have great connectivity too (I had to said that). Nonetheless, I can understand why you are so excited with Cairn e-bikes!

I have already shown the mods to my Vado SL in another thread (I think). I should take the side picture of my e-bike to clearly show how low the bars are located now!

 

[jodi2]

The typical rider I see on a Creo isn't someone who's a 30, 40 year old professional who wants a speed machine. It's someone over 50 who used to ride fast, doesn't have the same power output, but still wants a bike with drop bars. It also seems pointless to me to have a restricted Creo. If your Creo isn't able to go up to 28mph (45kph) why would you even own it?

That is an odd limitation for a road bike, since roadies can do that speed without motor assist. But I guess it simplifies standards to apply it across the board.

I almost fulfilled this age when buying my Creo. But I've to disagree with the rest. I never had a race bike when I was younger and started with drop bars with a gravel bike when I was more than 48. I was very happy about this (for me) new bike category. It offered me a significantly faster bike (than normal bike) for my allday rides to work paired with a much more durable/usable bike on bad or unpaved roads than a race bike (that I often use or have to use as well). I never wanted an ebike limited to 25km/h as they feel without motor or over 25km/h and an my rides to work I can ride 25 without motor.
The decision for the Creo came when we moved near the mountains and my tours in the free time ended much too early/after very few hills. Or I avoided hills but missed the nicest areas here. So if it's hilly, you really can take advantage also of a 25km/h limited ebike. But the Creo or the SL in general rides so great even over 25km/h or without motor, that it's not a pain. You can use it also this way or if it's flat. Of course you don't have much advantage there/the extra money for the edrive is wasted, if you don't have other uses for the SL.
But even for pure roadies a Creo is useful with a 25km/h limit and usable also in a group if you're a little(!) bit weaker than the rest. At faster speeds where the motor doesn't help you can always stay in the slipstream of the group.

There's little sense in the german/european 25 or 45km/h limits. These are traditional limits for the two lightest motorcycle classes since 50 years ago. When ebikes/pedelecs started 15 years ago, the officials were unsure how to classify them. But any vehicle here without classification, rules, limits, laws and tax class, not possible... :-( When it was clear that this new devil thing will grow, the bike industry complained that to much rules will stop that growth. So one come with the idea to use this existing 25km/h motorcycle class, to limit as well the power to 250w and to make pedaling obligatory to get motor support. Then this class was freed of any extra rules/set equal to normal bicycles. The ones over 25km/h and 250w where limited at 45km/h, but aren't bicycles anymore but motor cycles. So cycle path&ways, unpaved paths in the nature, pedestrian areas, anything is illegal and you need insurance and a driver license. Even if the more has only a 5km/h higher limit or only 50w more. That's why this class is only 1-2% of all german ebikes. In Switzerland (as not in the EU) these ebikes/pedelecs are as well bicycle, you just need a plate and a helmet. So there 25% of all ebikes are fast ones and there are not more accidents or dead people by ebikes than here.
Also the 45km/h for a fast ebike used in cities on the road is stupid and dangerous. Speed limit is 50km/h, most people drive 50-55. An ebike limited to 45km/h mostly turns off the motor before 45 and the speedometer always shows too much. So you ride only 40km/h, you’re an obstacle in any city, a hated obstacle and in danger in rush hour.
So please don't try to find logic in german or EU rules... :-(

I'm riding heavy normal 45km/h ebikes since 2013. I was always dreaming of a really light 45km/h bike like the Creo. But I don't want it anymore even if it would exist here and without our stupid rules. It's more challenging and it's pushing you to kick more/more often without motor than with a 45km/h bike. Also the physical and mental need for motor support at higher speeds is less than in hard uphills. In my free time it's not really important if I ride 30 or 33 or 35 km/h on a flat road. But to ride 14-19 instead of 8-13 km/h uphill and to get 100-200w extra help is priceless there. Also you can achieve incredible ranges even without range extender/you don't need any.
But of course, the Creo is more interesting and more versatile with a 45km/h limit. Letting you decide when and how much support to use. If you want you can get the same great range as with a 25km/h Creo as mschwett shows.

This is also part of the reason I fully expect to see a Vado EVO in the next couple of years. A Turbo Diverge Evo if you will. Sefan already turned his Vado SL into a gravel bike, and with the onslaught of people riding gravel, but not needing a "race" gravel bike like the Creo EVO, this makes total sense.

I don't share your hope. There will be nothing like this from Specialized in the next two years. I was hoping for a Levo HT SL as there is a Levo SL and there was a Levo HT. But still nothing. The Vado SL is a allday trekking/city/tour bike (with this customer group), not a MTB hardtail. Gravel is a new growing trend and there's already the Creo Evo.
On the other hand, putting some grippy gravel tires on a Vado wouldn't be a big thing for Specialized. But you can do it yourself.

So over the first few months I got the bike last winter I changed the front chainwheel to a 38T (Raceface). This had a dramatic effect on the steep 20% hills- the SL motor loves my faster cadence and bike has become a real mountain goat.

I then swapped the pathfinder tyres for WTB Nanos 40c - although not any wider really, they are taller with more air and more supple sidewalls giving a lovely springy ride with good grip but not any more rolling resistance that I can tell - they feel light and very fast and great on technical descents.

I also swapped the straight handlebars for something with a bigger back sweep. This was more personal preference as I like a more upright position for long rides. Plus I have more choice in hand positions with the bends. I also added some 'homemade' inner bar ends- basically the top half & hoods with the brake levers levered off, from some old shimano 600 road brake levers & they do the same job as riding on the hoods.

Pics or I don't believe anything!!!! ;-)

 

[jodi2]

Another bonus of Cairn is the fact you can remove the battery for charging. And, as you said, the Fazua motor is removable.

This Cairn has a Shimano E7000 Stefan, and the Cairn Fazua model is also much more expensive.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I almost fulfilled this age when buying my Creo. But I've to disagree with the rest. I never had a race bike when I was younger and started with drop bars with a gravel bike when I was more than 48. I was very happy about this (for me) new bike category. It offered me a significantly faster bike (than normal bike) for my allday rides to work paired with a much more durable/usable bike on bad or unpaved roads than a race bike (that I often use or have to use as well). I never wanted an ebike limited to 25km/h as they feel without motor or over 25km/h and an my rides to work I can ride 25 without motor.
The decision for the Creo came when we moved near the mountains and my tours in the free time ended much too early/after very few hills. Or I avoided hills but missed the nicest areas here. So if it's hilly, you really can take advantage also of a 25km/h limited ebike. But the Creo or the SL in general rides so great even over 25km/h or without motor, that it's not a pain. You can use it also this way or if it's flat. Of course you don't have much advantage there/the extra money for the edrive is wasted, if you don't have other uses for the SL.
But even for pure roadies a Creo is useful with a 25km/h limit and usable also in a group if you're a little(!) bit weaker than the rest. At faster speeds where the motor doesn't help you can always stay in the slipstream of the group.

There's little sense in the german/european 25 or 45km/h limits. These are traditional limits for the two lightest motorcycle classes since 50 years ago. When ebikes/pedelecs started 15 years ago, the officials were unsure how to classify them. But any vehicle here without classification, rules, limits, laws and tax class, not possible... :-( When it was clear that this new devil thing will grow, the bike industry complained that to much rules will stop that growth. So one come with the idea to use this existing 25km/h motorcycle class, to limit as well the power to 250w and to make pedaling obligatory to get motor support. Then this class was freed of any extra rules/set equal to normal bicycles. The ones over 25km/h and 250w where limited at 45km/h, but aren't bicycles anymore but motor cycles. So cycle path&ways, unpaved paths in the nature, pedestrian areas, anything is illegal and you need insurance and a driver license. Even if the more has only a 5km/h higher limit or only 50w more. That's why this class is only 1-2% of all german ebikes. In Switzerland (as not in the EU) these ebikes/pedelecs are as well bicycle, you just need a plate and a helmet. So there 25% of all ebikes are fast ones and there are not more accidents or dead people by ebikes than here.
Also the 45km/h for a fast ebike used in cities on the road is stupid and dangerous. Speed limit is 50km/h, most people drive 50-55. An ebike limited to 45km/h mostly turns off the motor before 45 and the speedometer always shows too much. So you ride only 40km/h, you’re an obstacle in any city, a hated obstacle and in danger in rush hour.
So please don't try to find logic in german or EU rules... :-(

I'm riding heavy normal 45km/h ebikes since 2013. I was always dreaming of a really light 45km/h bike like the Creo. But I don't want it anymore even if it would exist here and without our stupid rules. It's more challenging and it's pushing you to kick more/more often without motor than with a 45km/h bike. Also the physical and mental need for motor support at higher speeds is less than in hard uphills. In my free time it's not really important if I ride 30 or 33 or 35 km/h on a flat road. But to ride 14-19 instead of 8-13 km/h uphill and to get 100-200w extra help is priceless there. Also you can achieve incredible ranges even without range extender/you don't need any.
But of course, the Creo is more interesting and more versatile with a 45km/h limit. Letting you decide when and how much support to use. If you want you can get the same great range as with a 25km/h Creo as mschwett shows.


I don't share your hope. There will be nothing like this from Specialized in the next two years. I was hoping for a Levo HT SL as there is a Levo SL and there was a Levo HT. But still nothing. The Vado SL is a allday trekking/city/tour bike (with this customer group), not a MTB hardtail. Gravel is a new growing trend and there's already the Creo Evo.
On the other hand, putting some grippy gravel tires on a Vado wouldn't be a big thing for Specialized. But you can do it yourself.


Pics or I don't believe anything!!!! ;-)

I like your posts Jodi! I don't want to say anything more about our silly EU rules: You have covered the subject extensively.

Now, fancy that: I offer riding a Vado SL to a 38-yo sporty female. After several kilometres uphill, she switches the assistance off and rides for, say, 130 km unassisted, with typical cruising speed of 30 km/h. How can I match such people with my Vado SL?! Not possible. So I need to ride my heavy 45 km/h Vado 5.0 and use a spare battery to be any match on-road! Gravel? She's bought a lightweight traditional gravel bike and has already beaten all QOM records of the area! So much for 25 km/h restriction.

This Cairn has a Shimano E7000 Stefan, and the Cairn Fazua model is also much more expensive.

Thank you for clarification Jodi. Still, hats off to Cairn!

Pics or I don't believe anything!!!! ;-)

He has shown the pic!

 

[jodi2]

Now, fancy that: I offer riding a Vado SL to a 38-yo sporty female. After several kilometres uphill, she switches the assistance off and rides for, say, 130 km unassisted, with typical cruising speed of 30 km/h. How can I match such people with my Vado SL?! Not possible. So I need to ride my heavy 45 km/h Vado 5.0 and use a spare battery to be any match on-road!

Your legs are not standard Stefan. And your strange friends aren't normal... ;-) I'm bored even with a 25km/h Creo among most of my cycling friends which are all experienced (allday and tour) riders, not athletes. If I would participate in the Hawai training of the triatlon club in our next big city, I would have now chance. Stefan, stay out of that bad company, my parents would have said! They are too sporty, that's too frustrating... ;-)

He has shown the pic!

Of his transformed Vado SL?

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Your legs are not standard Stefan. And your strange friends aren't normal... ;-) I'm bored even with a 25km/h Creo among most of my cycling friends which are all experienced (allday and tour) riders, not athletes. If I would participate in the Hawai training of the triatlon club in our next big city, I would have now chance. Stefan, stay out of that bad company, my parents would have said! They are too sporty, that's too frustrating... ;-)


Of his transformed Vado SL?

Here you go again Jodi and a second pic showing the drive train side - and yes sorry about the confusion with the 2 different Cairn bikes - the e Adventure is a fazua equipped drop bar gravel bike, price just under £3K. The new BRAVe is a Shimano Steps E7000 equipped bike - either flat bar for £2189 or drops for £2549. Weight is around 40lbs. So the idea behind this is to have a bike for long days ride - but more MTB then a gravel bike, a mix of both you could say. And I think that's the attraction for me- I mountain biked way before full suspension & trail centres became the main thing. The no suspension Brave just looks to me like a fun bike to explore on and perfectly suited to my local terrain.

Time will tell if it's attractive to many others or just me!!

 

[jodi2]

Apart from the handle bar this looks really MTB-like. Or a mixture between MTB and gravel.

As you can find sometimes cheap used Vado SL here in winter, I was already thinking of buying a used 4.0 non-EQ to convert it to an MTB hardtail with a good suspension fork. As there are almost no light eMTB hardtails on the market (just one but sold out until 2023) and everyone wants fullies, there aren't really alternatives.
But as explained in another thread, I still don't feel the need for a motor with my MTB hardtail yet. Rides are shorter and much slower, but still great and any uphill possible so far with the 12x gears.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Jodi: a side note.
I have learnt from @DiggyGun the British bike safety laws are even more stringent than ours in the EU!

• 15.5 mph restriction goes without saying, same as 250 W nominal
• Reflectors on pedals, eliminating most of MTB or clipless pedals from the public roads and bike lanes
• Reflectors on tyres, eliminating some good rubbers (I can see Ras has ignored that)
• A motorcycle helmet on S-Pedelecs...

I don't mind they have their brake levers reversed

 

[jodi2]

Stefan, we have ALL these rules as well, I just hadn't the time to mention all of them...
And about the brake levers, our 45km/h s-peledecs need to be equipped with brake levers with balls at the need like the ones of motor cycles to avoid squeezed hands or fingers in a crash.
Don't mess with Germany when it comes to rules&laws, we still have the biggest "library" of tax law books in the world! :-(

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan, we have ALL these rules as well, I just hadn't the time to mention all of them...

I need to check the Polish law more carefully then

And about the brake levers, our 45km/h s-peledecs need to be equipped with brake levers with balls at the need like the ones of motor cycles to avoid squeezed hands or fingers in a crash.

True! True! I have never noticed that on my Vado before you told me about it!

Don't mess with Germany when it comes to rules&laws, we still have the biggest "library" of tax law books in the world! :-(

Oh yes. 1990, Duisburg. I got my first German ticket ever, for riding a bike in the pedestrian zone... 10 DEM, it was a lot for me at that time! (My food for the whole day cost Zehn Deutschmark then).

 

[kahn]

Because I live in an extremely hilly area, with small narrow lanes and surfaces which although tarmacked are more akin to gravel roads because of the muddy/gravelly/potholed appearance, and it rains here a hell of a lot! (Dartmoor SW England) I set about converting my Vado SL to be able to deal with these local conditions. And importantly - to make riding on these lanes, fun!
So over the first few months I got the bike last winter I changed the front chainwheel to a 38T (Raceface). This had a dramatic effect on the steep 20% hills- the SL motor loves my faster cadence and bike has become a real mountain goat.

I then swapped the pathfinder tyres for WTB Nanos 40c - although not any wider really, they are taller with more air and more supple sidewalls giving a lovely springy ride with good grip but not any more rolling resistance that I can tell - they feel light and very fast and great on technical descents.

I also swapped the straight handlebars for something with a bigger back sweep. This was more personal preference as I like a more upright position for long rides. Plus I have more choice in hand positions with the bends. I also added some 'homemade' inner bar ends- basically the top half & hoods with the brake levers levered off, from some old shimano 600 road brake levers & they do the same job as riding on the hoods.

I got SKS Speedrocker mudguards - these are especially designed for gravel bikes. At first I was suspicious of them as they are simply attached with velcro and rubber bands and seemed too fragile for the harsh riding conditions here, plus are only 3/4 length. But that elasticity is their genius - unlike traditional bolted on mudguards these can move when hit by obstacles flung up by the tyres; sticks, rocks etc. They bounce them off without clogging. And if they do clog you don't need any tools to move them to get at the mud or leaves etc that have caused a problem. They also sit further from the tyres so are automatically better for stones mud not getting caught. So far they have lasted over a year and still going strong.

The bike now feels perfect for the riding conditions here. And Rider 51 I agree with you that Speccy might well come out with an EVO version of the Vado - and if it's an SL I'll be VERY interested to see what they do to make it more off road capable!

Meanwhile I've got my eye on a new bike from UK ebike company Cairn. It's their new BRAVe which has been delayed by the usual slowdown issues so now not available until June I think. Cairn are a small company but are the same people who make Hunt wheels and Privateer MTBs. Their first e bike was the gravel drop bar e Adventure & Fazua equipped. Won a ton of awards. But I like the look of the Brave because of the no nonsense robust looking build. It's also only £2100 which is brilliant. Hope it gets some good reviews. Then i'll be that well known problem, that disease that afflicts so many of us on here; is this an addition to my stable?

View attachment 107675

Cairn BRAVe 2.0 Flat Bar

It's Time to Feel BRAVe Gravel Bike, rigid mountain bike, monster cross, touring bike, back country or gravduro. Whatever you want to call it ...be BRAVe! A 21st century take on the touring bike, the BRAVe takes all the great features of gravel and mountain bikes and combines them into one...

www.cairncycles.com

I am interested in the model mud guards are discussed above "SKS Speedrocker mudguards"

There seem to be about 3,000 styles/models. Thanks.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I am interested in the model mud guards are discussed above "SKS Speedrocker mudguards"

There seem to be about 3,000 styles/models. Thanks.

I think this is precisely that model (it is one size product), and the "Speedrocker" is the unique name:

Amazon.com

According to SKS, these are wheel limitations:

• 27.5" or 28" wheels
• Tyre width: 0.9-1.65" (23-42 mm)
• Rigid fork
• Disk brake.

SPEEDROCKER SET - SKS GERMANY

Mudguard set with stays and a dual spoiler function Ready to rock the gravel! The SKS SPEEDROCKER mudguard made of high-performance impact-resistant plastic was designed especially for gravel, cyclocross and […]

www.sks-germany.com

Necessary to mention SKS make many other fender/mudguard models, several of them suitable for MTBs (including full suspension ones), some more permanent and other attached by zip-ties.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan, we have ALL these rules as well, I just hadn't the time to mention all of them...

Some extra information:
The Poland's law only requires these safety components from a bike (including 25 km/h e-bikes):

• A headlight (white or yellow) with either constant or blinking light
• A red tail-light (constant or blinking light)
• Rear reflector, red
• At least one operable brake
• A bell

That's it!

The requirements from a 45 km/h S-Pedelec are similar to the ones of Germany, only the rider needs to wear "a helmet" without specifying what exactly a helmet.

 

[mschwett]

i appreciate that my US class-3 creo has a 28mph limit … but i can count on one hand the times i’ve intentionally used assist over 20mph. although it might be fun, it’s just not that practical for a bike with a 320wh battery outside of short commutes. it takes the full 250w (300w draw) to bump your speed from 21/22 (about what i can do myself) to 27/28 (the limit.) battery exhausted after barely an hour, and the result - you’ve gone 6 or 7 miles further. silliness. certainly interesting to use the motor to enable faster commutes in that 20-30 minute one-way range, but for recreation, vado SL and creo SL are all about enabling climbs which would otherwise be unpleasant or impossible.

 

[kahn]

I think this is precisely that model (it is one size product), and the "Speedrocker" is the unique name:

Amazon.com

According to SKS, these are wheel limitations:

• 27.5" or 28" wheels
• Tyre width: 0.9-1.65" (23-42 mm)
• Rigid fork
• Disk brake.

SPEEDROCKER SET - SKS GERMANY

Mudguard set with stays and a dual spoiler function Ready to rock the gravel! The SKS SPEEDROCKER mudguard made of high-performance impact-resistant plastic was designed especially for gravel, cyclocross and […]

www.sks-germany.com

Necessary to mention SKS make many other fender/mudguard models, several of them suitable for MTBs (including full suspension ones), some more permanent and other attached by zip-ties.

Thanks for all the info.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

i appreciate that my US class-3 creo has a 28mph limit … but i can count on one hand the times i’ve intentionally used assist over 20mph. although it might be fun, it’s just not that practical for a bike with a 320wh battery outside of short commutes. it takes the full 250w (300w draw) to bump your speed from 21/22 (about what i can do myself) to 27/28 (the limit.) battery exhausted after barely an hour, and the result - you’ve gone 6 or 7 miles further. silliness. certainly interesting to use the motor to enable faster commutes in that 20-30 minute one-way range, but for recreation, vado SL and creo SL are all about enabling climbs which would otherwise be unpleasant or impossible.

Funny to say that but (with my "non-standard legs") I ride my Vado SL rather slowly. Even fully derestricted, the e-bike loves to stay at some 25+ km/h (16 mph is more correct figure here). With such slow speed, the Vado SL range is pretty high, especially with the RE. Riding gravel with my sporty friends required me using 70/70% assistance with occasional Turbo bursts on-road, giving the practical range of some 75 km (46 mi) with the RE. I often do grocery shopping in the neighbourhood, requiring me to ride for 4.4 or 7.5 or 15 km: I can afford riding in Turbo on the main battery only, especially when it is cold and/or windy to reduce the trip time. Of course, Turbo mode lets me ride faster: I hit 40 km/h (25 mph) on a sprint lately.

I could not fail to notice the Creo was potentially faster than Vado SL (it should be derestricted to prove it) but I was on two similar rides on two consecutive days (similar distance and wind): derestricted Vado SL on a gravel/on-road ride gave the average speed of 20.9 km/h, while a restricted Creo got me at 23.3 km/h on-road.

Needless to say, a full power 45 km/h Vado is a speed demon compared.

 

[jodi2]

i appreciate that my US class-3 creo has a 28mph limit … but i can count on one hand the times i’ve intentionally used assist over 20mph. although it might be fun, it’s just not that practical for a bike with a 320wh battery outside of short commutes (...) certainly interesting to use the motor to enable faster commutes in that 20-30 minute one-way range, but for recreation, vado SL and creo SL are all about enabling climbs which would otherwise be unpleasant or impossible.

That's a great resume of my two usages... ;-) And it shows, that each ebike type has it's use, there not the one and only for everything. My Stromer is a terrible tank (about twice the weight of my Creo), terrible to ride offroad or without motor. And I already need 320Wh for 10-12 miles.
But it's one of the best ways for 10-20 miles one-way to work every day, as speed really matters here and makes you using the bike more often also over years. For recreation use speed an time aren't that important. Also I would have to charge a 28mph limited creo to work more often than the Stromer (as the internal battery is about 3x the size of SL drive...). At "recreational use" I get 3x the range of the Stromer with 1/3 of battery (of course much much slower...).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

That's a great resume of my two usages... ;-) And it shows, that each ebike type has it's use, there not the one and only for everything. My Stromer is a terrible tank (about twice the weight of my Creo), terrible to ride offroad or without motor. And I already need 320Wh for 10-12 miles.
But it's one of the best ways for 10-20 miles one-way to work every day, as speed really matters here and makes you using the bike more often also over years. For recreation use speed an time aren't that important. Also I would have to charge a 28mph limited creo to work more often than the Stromer (as the internal battery is about 3x the size of SL drive...). At "recreational use" I get 3x the range of the Stromer with 1/3 of battery (of course much much slower...).

Jodi, hear this:
I made 168 km on my full power Vado using two 604 Wh batteries. I made a number of 130 km rides on that e-bike. The number of my 120 km or 112 km rides on my Vado 5.0 is huge. I was conquering real mountains with my Vado 5.0. While I could only make 116 km max on my Vado SL with RE, and would really hesitate to take the SL to the mountainous country

 

[jodi2]

Stefan you get what you pay for. The Stromer is not to heavy or not too thirsty for it's purpose. Neither are the normal Vado or Vado SL/Creo bad or slow ebikes.
My ride to work would be about 10% faster with the Stromer than with the normal vado (as this was also the difference to my S-Bosch). But of course it empties the battery like a glass of cold beer. Big motor support and higher speed need overproportional energy/battery.
I also can ride 100km with the Stromer at low motor support, but it feels terrible (for me, others ride more often like this), like a Porsche in the rush hour. Creo or Vado SL are fanatistic here, but of course much slower then a Stromer (or normal Vado) with full support. The normal Vado (or Bosch or similiar) is somewhere between, a good compromise. Perfect if you can afford or want only one ebike for everything.
Like always, there's no free lunch... ;-)