Mike leroy
Active Member
Yes. I am suspicious of M1. Very risky.
Need help with Haibike, M1 spitzing, stealth, optibike, Stromer,focus, or grace e bikes
- Thread starter Racingkyle
- Start date
Mike leroy
Active Member
That is very good. I am very biased against SF. I looks like a SUV.
Racingkyle
Member
I am bias to acceleration and power. but I'm also bias to German automotive manufacturing. I had a Mercedes ml350 for about 3 months as a loaner car. it was so precise.
Racingkyle
Member
yes. they are very unlike apple. the design doesn't please all, and I can't blame you for that!!
Racingkyle
Member
stealth should have a more elegant model that they can sell which is still powerful
Mike leroy
Active Member
So, what is the German SF? That is what you might want. Have you consider KTM? they make motorcycles.
Mike leroy
Active Member
Try this http://www.ktmfreeride-e.com/en for starters. I will sins another
Racingkyle
Member
I love KTM so much! I believe they are currently working on an e bike, but nothing has been released yet (as far as I know). I'm worried that once these electric bike pioneers find the right market, all the large bike companies are going to charge into the market and create a crazy amount of competition
Mike leroy
Active Member
Racingkyle
Member
Doesn't seem to be anything special. KTM really seems to be focusing all their attention to the motorcycle industry
Mike leroy
Active Member
You should call KTM USA and find out. I know someone who got one. Search the discussions to find out how he got his.
http://electricbikereview.com/community/forums/ktm/
Time for me to sleep.
Racingkyle
Member
Thank you. I will search through the forums
Mike leroy
Active Member
Kyle,
If KTM does not work, how about Focus Thorn Speed 27R ? I think KTM is too high Risk factor.
Is this the best bike for you so far?
Let's adopt a standard approach for dissussing bikes.
- paste Court's review.
- stick with our bike vocabulary.
- The four Factors: Purpose, Cost, Risk, Bias.
- The six Benefits are:
- Excitement,
- Ease,
- Endurance,
- Elegance,
- Enjoyment
- Economy.
- Rate the Factors and Benefits on a scale from 1.0 to 5.0.
- Zero means ignore.
- Decimal points are allowed, e.g., 4.5 is between a 4 and 5.
- The highest Risk score, 5, is the worst, not least risk.
- We have a list of Rules to lower Bias:
- For example, Volt Rule for 48 vs. 76V regarding Excitement.
Thorn clearly meets your Factors with the highest scores. The Thorn Speed Purpose rating is higher than Grace One.
I think you rate Excitement as 3.0 because only 350-450 watts. Top speed 28mph, which is not as high as you want. The Grace Excitement rating is higher for you (4.0).
For me, Thorn is my #2 bike.
Summary: Focus Thorn
- Extremely well balanced, high speed 28 mph pedalec with full suspension that's on and off-road capable
- Features the highest end components including Shimano XT drivetrain, Fox Float suspension (front and rear), Magura MT4 hydraulic disc brakes, Ergon grips with lockers and Supernova + B&M lights
- Impulse 2.0 Off-Road Speed drive system is responsive, smart and highly adjustable, motor is well protected, battery is removable
- Make / Model : Focus / Thron Impulse Speed 27R
- Price MSRP : $6,599.00 USD
- Body Position / Suggested Use : Forward / Trail, Urban
- Electric Bike Class : Speed Pedalec (Class 3) - Learn More about Ebike Classes
- Warranty : 2 Year Comprehensive
- Availability / Model Year / Overall Rating :United States, Germany / 2014 / 10 of 10
Electronic Details:
- Motor Type / Nominal Output : / Peak Output : Mid-Mounted Geared Motor / 350 watt / 450 watt - Learn More about Ebike Motors
- Motor Brand / Motor Torque : Impulse 2.0 Off-Road Speed with Shift Sensing and Climb Assist / 70 Newton meters
- Battery Voltage / Amp Hours / Watt Hours : 36 volt / 17 ah / 612 wh
- Battery Brand / Chemistry : Xion / Lithium-ion
- Estimated Charge Time / Estimated Min and Max Range : 4.5 hrs / 40 to 120 miles (64.37 to 193.12 kilometers)
- Display Type / Readouts / Accessories : Center Mounted, Removable Backlit Monochrome LCD / Speed, Power Assist Mode (Eco, Sport, Power, Sport/ Power), Battery Charge State, Remaining Range, Total & Average Mileage, Highest & Average Speed, Trip Time / Independent Rubberized Button Pad
- Drive Modes / Top Speed : Advanced Pedal Assist (Measures Pedal Torque and Wheel Speed 100 Times Per Second) / 28 mph (45.06 km/ hour)
- Total Weight / Motor Weight / Battery Weight : 51.37 lbs (23.3 kg) 8 lbs (3.63 kg) 7 lbs (3.18 kg)
- Frame Types / Frame Sizes : High-Step / 15.75 in (40.01 cm ), 17.32 in (43.99 cm ), 18.9 in (48.01 cm ), 20.47 in (51.99 cm )
- Frame Material / Frame Colors : Aluminum Alloy / Diamond Matte Black
- Geometry Measurements :By Size XS, S, M, L: Seat Tube Length (mm) 400 440 480 520, Top Tube Length (mm) 580 590 605 620, Steering Angle (°) 68,5 68,5 68,5 68,5, Seat Tube Angle (°) 75 75 75 75, Chainstay Length (mm) 450 450 450 450, Bottom Bracket Drop (mm) 25 25 25 25, Head Tube Length (mm) 100 110 120 135, Fork Construction Height (mm) 507 507 507 507, Pre-Raked Fork (mm) 42 42 42 42, Wheelbase Length (mm) 1148,5 1148,5 1164,6 1181, Stack (mm) 578 587 597 609, Reach (mm) 425 433 445 456
- Fork Details / Rear Details : Fox 32 Float Factory CTD Suspension with 120 mm Travel, 15 mm Thru Acle with Quick Release / Fox Float Evolution CTD Suspension with 120 mm Travel
- Attachment Points : License Plate Bosses
- Gearing Details / Shifter Details : 10 Speed 1x10 Shimano XT Low Profile Plus, 42T Front, 11-34T Rear / Shimano XT Triggers on Right Bar
- Cranks : Focus Impulse Alloy
- Stem / Handlebar : Concept EX 7° / Handlebar Concept EX, Riser
- Brakes Details : Magura MT4 Hydraulic Disc with 180 mm Rotors
- Grips / Saddle / Seatpost / Seatpost Length / Seatpost Diameter : Ergon GP1 with Lockers / Fizik Tundra / Concept EX / 350 mm / 36.1 mm
- Rims : Lightweight Reynolds AM
- Tire Brand / Wheel Sizes / Tube Details : Schwalbe Super Moto X 62-584, 27.5” x 2.4” (650b) / 27.5 in (69.85 cm ) / Presta Valves
- Accessories / Other Details : Supernova E3 Pro Headlight, B&M Toplight Line Rear LED Light, Bar End Mirror, Aluminum Alloy Bash Guard and Chain Bounce Guard, Single Side Kickstand, Bell on Left Bar / Removable Batery Pack, Adjustable Motor Response Time (1-7), Adjustable Shift Sensing (0-300 milliseconds), Adjustable Wheel Circumference (1,540 mm to 2,330 mm), Walk Mode, Model Thron Impulse Speed 10-G XT, Magnetic EnergyBus Charging Port
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Racingkyle
Member
It does meet my criteria, but a pedelec that goes 28mph makes me nervous. if it had a throttle at 28, that would be better.
Mike leroy
Active Member
The pedelec will always be problematic for you due to strict German laws. Is Grace better?
Focus Thorn has 70Nm torque, which is much better than 55Nm for Grace. This is like M1 Spitzing. They favor torque over acceleration.
Racingkyle
Member
I like grace much better!!
Mike leroy
Active Member
I knew that, but did not want to presume. I checked out LaPierre, which is worse for you than Focus.
Mike leroy
Active Member
Kyle,
I think we reached the end of the line. I know of no other bike that matches your requirements.
My bias is 48-72 Volt, NMC chemistry Li-ion batteries. I prefer motors less than 2,000
Watts, drawing less than 30 Amps. Higher wattage motors should have proportionately higher the voltage. I am biased towards 90Nm+ torque. I am biased towards throttle.
I am biased towards extreme 500% gear ratios for my very steep hills. My bias towards top speed is 28-35mph. My battery range bias is 75+ miles. I am very biased against exposed, external cassette gears.
I am biased towards 1. hard-tails and 2. full suspension. I prefer bikes under 60 pounds.
The following Google Sheet lists the criteria we based our judgments on. The Google Sheet follows Court's EBR rating format. The main difference is we mapped our standard Factors and Benefit to Court's bike features.
You might want to talk with other people who look for different types of bikes. You might want to consider starting new threads to continue your search. You will get better responses by going to specific manufacturer forums to ask specific questions about particular models. I prefer to start other threads, than continue this one. We have reached the point of diminishing returns. I am happy to continue other threads with you.
The One.15 offers the best tradeoff for my requirements, but falls short in several areas. I could content myself with the One.15. No other bike even comes close. I am NOT thrilled by the Grace One.15, just the best rational choice.
I really hate the idea of drawing 50 Amps on a 48V battery. I will buy a 72V and 30A electrical system, rather than the Grace One.15, provided I find one. 55Nm of torque is underwhelming. The Focus Thorn Speed has a better electrical design, but is only 36V.
The 1300W Grace One Pro is much better than the One.15 in this regard. I do not quite understand why the additional 700W of power only result in 5Nm of extra torque. Torque = Power / RPM. The motor evidently reaches the point of diminishing returns around 1300W. For some reason, the additional watts are proportional with RPMs.
Does the entire electrical system reach the point of diminishing returns around 1300W? The 1300W motor top-speed is 28mph. Wind resistence is very strong above 30mph. Does the additional 700W primairly counter wind resistence? In CA, 1600W is the moped/motorcycle legal dividing line.
The Cost-Benefit ratio appears to maximize around 1300W! Paying more money is not buying you more motor benefit!
Along with the heavy Grace One.15 motor magnets comes a 70 pound bike. I feel the battery should be made in 5Amp, pluggable modules to reduce 10-20 pounds of dead weight.
So, there you have it. You know exactly my biases and systematic methodology. If you find other bikes, I am always eager to evaluate better alternatives.
Our standard approach for dissussing bikes:
I simply do not know of a better choice for you other than the Grace One.15. You and I both have a strong bias towards motorcycles. We relate to throttle and power. Grace is the only German eBike with a throttle, that I know of. Grace does not offer a full suspension, but the frame is the super-sized like no other.
I think we reached the end of the line. I know of no other bike that matches your requirements.
My bias is 48-72 Volt, NMC chemistry Li-ion batteries. I prefer motors less than 2,000
Watts, drawing less than 30 Amps. Higher wattage motors should have proportionately higher the voltage. I am biased towards 90Nm+ torque. I am biased towards throttle.
I am biased towards extreme 500% gear ratios for my very steep hills. My bias towards top speed is 28-35mph. My battery range bias is 75+ miles. I am very biased against exposed, external cassette gears.
I am biased towards 1. hard-tails and 2. full suspension. I prefer bikes under 60 pounds.
The following Google Sheet lists the criteria we based our judgments on. The Google Sheet follows Court's EBR rating format. The main difference is we mapped our standard Factors and Benefit to Court's bike features.
You might want to talk with other people who look for different types of bikes. You might want to consider starting new threads to continue your search. You will get better responses by going to specific manufacturer forums to ask specific questions about particular models. I prefer to start other threads, than continue this one. We have reached the point of diminishing returns. I am happy to continue other threads with you.
The One.15 offers the best tradeoff for my requirements, but falls short in several areas. I could content myself with the One.15. No other bike even comes close. I am NOT thrilled by the Grace One.15, just the best rational choice.
I really hate the idea of drawing 50 Amps on a 48V battery. I will buy a 72V and 30A electrical system, rather than the Grace One.15, provided I find one. 55Nm of torque is underwhelming. The Focus Thorn Speed has a better electrical design, but is only 36V.
The 1300W Grace One Pro is much better than the One.15 in this regard. I do not quite understand why the additional 700W of power only result in 5Nm of extra torque. Torque = Power / RPM. The motor evidently reaches the point of diminishing returns around 1300W. For some reason, the additional watts are proportional with RPMs.
Does the entire electrical system reach the point of diminishing returns around 1300W? The 1300W motor top-speed is 28mph. Wind resistence is very strong above 30mph. Does the additional 700W primairly counter wind resistence? In CA, 1600W is the moped/motorcycle legal dividing line.
The Cost-Benefit ratio appears to maximize around 1300W! Paying more money is not buying you more motor benefit!
Along with the heavy Grace One.15 motor magnets comes a 70 pound bike. I feel the battery should be made in 5Amp, pluggable modules to reduce 10-20 pounds of dead weight.
So, there you have it. You know exactly my biases and systematic methodology. If you find other bikes, I am always eager to evaluate better alternatives.
Our standard approach for dissussing bikes:
- Paste Court's review.
- Our bike vocabulary:
- The four Factors: Purpose, Cost, Risk, Bias.
- The six Benefits are:
- Excitement
- Ease
- Endurance
- Elegance
- Enjoyment
- Economy
- Rate the Factors and Benefits on a scale from 1.0 to 5.0.
- Zero means ignore.
- Decimal points are allowed, e.g., 4.5 is between a 4 and 5.
- The highest Risk score, 5, is the worst, not least risk.
- We have a list of Rules to lower Bias:
- For example, Volt Rule for 48 vs. 76V regarding Excitement.
I simply do not know of a better choice for you other than the Grace One.15. You and I both have a strong bias towards motorcycles. We relate to throttle and power. Grace is the only German eBike with a throttle, that I know of. Grace does not offer a full suspension, but the frame is the super-sized like no other.
Last edited:
Racingkyle
Member
Thank your for all your help. All the spread sheets and graphs have been very helpful. I am looking forward to talking to you again in the future on other threads. If you get a grace one15 feel free to comment in this thread since I'll get an email. thanks again!
Mike leroy
Active Member
Take a look at Polaris Aapex, but at 750W, I can probably guess your reaction.
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