My New Globe Haul ST (2 weeks Old now)

[Lippy]

Thanks, Stefan. Good advice.

 

[AvalancheRun]

I *thought* that no matter what gear I was in, the faster I pedal the more the motor will assist me. But I'm finding that in actuality it seems that the higher the GEAR I'm in(no matter the assist level), the more the motor kicks in to help. Does this jibe with your experiences too?

I’m not understanding this 100%. The bike uses a torque sensor to determine when to provide assistance, but I think it’s fairly straightforward. PAS levels 1-5 give gradually more assistance, irrespective of your gearing. That’s how I remember it at least. It is a pretty balanced and elegant power delivery system.

PAS 2-3 was super powerful for almost any situation, 4-5 for really tough hills or if you really want to cruise at 28 mph (I don’t!). I remember using PAS 1-2 quite a lot.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I’m not understanding this 100%. The bike uses a torque sensor to determine when to provide assistance

Do not think a lot of torque sensing for a hub-drive. Unlike a mid-drive, where the assistance is variable and actually depending on the product of the cadence and the torque exerted by the feet (the product is called the pedaling power), hub-drives just deliver a constant assistance per the assist level. Additionally, mid-drives offer variable motor speed while hub-drives only give constant rpm per assistance level. That's why pedalling at the optimum speed is so important for hub-drives. (Think of the Assist Level as of the cruising speed selector there).

A good example is the Mahle X20 motor, a hub-drive with torque sensing used for lightweight road e-bikes. People who believed the torque sensing there was any improvement eventually felt very disappointed. In my opinion, both torque and cadence sensing for a hub-drive just activate the motor to run

 

[Lippy]

Good info for me to internalize. Important to keep my feet moving if I want the hub to assist fully.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Guys - I need some of your help in understanding the way my Haul's motor is set up to help me:

I *thought* that no matter what gear I was in, the faster I pedal the more the motor will assist me. But I'm finding that in actuality it seems that the higher the GEAR I'm in(no matter the assist level), the more the motor kicks in to help. Does this jibe with your experiences too?

Does anyone have a link to an article(s) explaining cadence motors and how I should be utilizing the assist for maximum BATTERY savings(while still getting as much "help" as possible/needed)?

One more question:
If I'm in an assist mode (say 1st) and I'm just coasting downhill for a mile or so - am I actively using battery power when I don't need to? Should I be changing the assist level to 0 ( a minor pain) when going downhill or is the fact that I'm NOT pedaling just the same as if I had turned down the assist to 0?

Thanks,
Lip

Last question's easy: No matter what kind of assist you have, if you're neither pedaling nor on the throttle, you're the motor's not pulling current from the battery.

The answer to your other question depends on the kind of assist the Haul employs.

A. If you have pure torque-sensing assist, power delivery is based solely on the force you apply to the pedals: More force from you = more assist from the motor. Higher assist level = more assist for a given pedal force.

True cadence (pedaling speed in RPM) isn't measured and has no effect on motor power.

B. If you have simple cadence-sensing assist, motor power is 100% when the pedals are turning and 0% when they're not. Nothing in between. Often, higher assist level = higher forward speed at which the assist cuts out. True cadence and pedal force aren't measured.

Either way, true cadence has no effect on power delivery.

C. Higher-end Specialized ebikes measure true cadence, pedal force, and other parameters and dole out assist accordingly using sophisticated proprietary algorithms. True cadence would affect assist on these bikes.

Couldn't find a clear statement of which kind of assist the Haul uses.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Unlike a mid-drive, where the assistance is variable and actually depending on the product of the cadence and the torque exerted by the feet (the product is called the pedaling power), hub-drives just deliver a constant assistance per the assist level.

Generalizations like this just aren't helpful. That might be true of some poorly implemented torque-sensing hub-drives, but certainly not of mine.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

A. If you have pure torque-sensing assist, power delivery is based solely on the force you apply to the pedals: More force from you = more assist from the motor. Higher assist level = more assist for a given pedal force.

It does not work on hub-drives. The torque sensing on a hub-drive e-bike only activates the motor. Same, as the cadence sensor that only activates the motor as soon as the crank is spinning. The torque sensor on a hub-drive motor will activate the motor earlier than the cadence sensor could engage.

C. Higher-end Specialized ebikes measure true cadence, pedal force, and other parameters and dole out assist accordingly using sophisticated proprietary algorithms. True cadence would affect assist on these bikes.

Globe is not a Specialized Turbo, and the rules for Specialized Turbo do not apply here.
The Specialized Turbo cargo e-bike is called Porto, is only available in Europe, and has a mid-drive motor.

Complete BS. Come ride my torque-sensing hub-drive.

Some hard data please. I can prove everything with hard data for my Specialized Turbo e-bikes.
If you can ride in the fully open throttle in Assist Level 1 and show me the figures for motor power for pedalling with different torque then I could believe you.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

It does not work on hub-drives. The torque sensing on a hub-drive e-bike only activates the motor. Same, as the cadence sensor that only activates the motor as soon as the crank is spinning. The torque sensor on a hub-drive motor will activate the motor earlier than the cadence sensor could engage.

Globe is not a Specialized Turbo, and the rules for Specialized Turbo do not apply here.
The Specialized Turbo cargo e-bike is called Porto, is only available in Europe, and has a mid-drive motor.


Some hard data please. I can prove everything with hard data for my Specialized Turbo e-bikes.
If you can ride in the fully open throttle in Assist Level 1 and show me the figures for motor power for pedalling with different torque then I could believe you.

Here's some hard data for you: I've ridden 2 different torque-sensing hub-drives — one for 2400 mi and the other for 50 mi, both in varied terrain. Off the throttle, where I do 99% of my riding, both dole out assist in proportion to pedal force — exactly as I described in the pure torque-sensing case. In no way is the power delivery all or nothing.

This isn't some hallucination or theory on my part. It's an in-the-saddle observation any experienced ebike rider would be qualified to make. And it falsifies your wild generalizations about torque-sensing hub-drives.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Here's some hard data for you: I've ridden 2 different torque-sensing hub-drives — one for 2400 mi and the other for 50 mi, both in varied terrain. Off the throttle, where I do 99% of my riding, both dole out assist in proportion to pedal force — exactly as I described in the pure torque-sensing case. In no way is the power delivery all or nothing.

This isn't some hallucination or theory on my part. It's an in-the-saddle observation any experienced ebike rider would be qualified to make. And it falsifies your wild generalizations about torque-sensing hub-drives.

I do not deny your observations. I admit torque sensing on a hub-drive might work by adjusting the amount of the motor power by the pedalling torque. That way, the cranks might work as yet another throttle, that is, the torque on the cranks could deliver more or less power to the motor up to the maximum allowed by a given assistance level. That is, if Level 1 allows 100 W max then hard mashing on the cranks could deliver 100 W of assistance at that level while light pedalling would give 50 W.

There is, however, a fundamental difference between a hub-drive and a mid-drive. While a torque-sensing hub-drive can only amplify the torque exerted by your feet, a mid-drive motor amplifies your leg power, that is cadence * torque. It means you can either mash or spin your cranks and the power to be amplified by the mid-drive motor might be the same in both cases.

Let me give you an example. Yamaha PW-X2 (one of Giant Syncdrive Pro mid-drive motors) has no cap on the power delivered by the motor, and the max motor power there is 520 W (mechanical). If you set the Assistance to 100% then you can deliver 100 W of the leg power either by light but fast pedalling or by slower but hard stomping on the pedals. In either case, the motor would deliver 100 W of mechanical assistance. That makes it very different to the hub-drive motor where the pedalling cadence is not taken into account at all.

That would explain the fact the Haul motor requires a higher gear and harder pedalling to move faster.

 

[Lippy]

Very interesting observation. That last sentence describes my (admittedly new) Haul motor experience exactly.

 

[Marcela]

Those little tires give the sensation of power, and require the larger front chainring to compensate.

 

[Lippy]

In my limited experience with the Haul so far, the motor absolutely responds to quick torque bursts from the legs.
It’s great. Best of both worlds.

 

[FWGlobeHaul]

Hey, I am new to this group. I have had my Globe Haul ST since December 2023 and absolutely love it. I bought it from a local bike shop and I am glad I did. They've been incredibly helpful. (I had a Juiced ScorpionX for 2 years and sold it because it wasn't what I wanted).

I did have a question and wasn't sure how to post. When I get to 28 mph, my bike won't just go over, I feel the motor holding back. Is there a setting I can change so my bike won't jump back when at 28 mph.

I also noticed that my USB port won't charge my phone so that's disappointing.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I did have a question and wasn't sure how to post. When I get to 28 mph, my bike won't just go over, I feel the motor holding back. Is there a setting I can change so my bike won't jump back when at 28 mph.

You are getting immense motor assistance, which is more than a typical pro cyclist can generate with their legs. When you are getting past the 28 mph speed limiter, the motor stops working and now all the resistances (especially the air drag) act against you. This gives the false Impression the motor holds you back.

It is the best to ride slower than 28 mph so the motor is assisting your ride all the time.

 

[AvalancheRun]

Hey, I am new to this group. I have had my Globe Haul ST since December 2023 and absolutely love it. I bought it from a local bike shop and I am glad I did. They've been incredibly helpful. (I had a Juiced ScorpionX for 2 years and sold it because it wasn't what I wanted).

I did have a question and wasn't sure how to post. When I get to 28 mph, my bike won't just go over, I feel the motor holding back. Is there a setting I can change so my bike won't jump back when at 28 mph.

I also noticed that my USB port won't charge my phone so that's disappointing.

Yeah, the USB port is almost useless. It could power a small action cam, or maybe some LED lights -- but forget trying to charge a phone with it.

Honestly wouldn't want to ride faster than 28 on this bike. It's just not designed for that. I had the handlebars come loose randomly while riding. No doubt Specialized failed to torque it correctly, but it's not a motorcycle or scooter is all I'm saying.

 

[Lippy]

Damn!
I *just* bought a USB>Thunderbolt cord thinking I could charge my phone while riding. Disappointing to hear that it’s a hobbled port

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Damn!
I *just* bought a USB>Thunderbolt cord thinking I could charge my phone while riding. Disappointing to hear that it’s a hobbled port

Not uncommon. My non-Specialized display's USB port puts out only 0.5A. Useful enough in keeping my aftermarket headlight charged but worthless for charging my Samsung Note20 phone.

HOWEVER, my battery has its own 1.2A USB port, and that will (a) just keep up with draw by the RideWithGPS app if running, or (b) charge the phone VERY slowly when RideWithGPS is off. Better than nothing.

 

[mfgrep]

Not uncommon. My non-Specialized display's USB port puts out only 0.5A. Useful enough in keeping my aftermarket headlight charged but worthless for charging my Samsung Note20 phone.

HOWEVER, my battery has its own 1.2A USB port, and that will (a) just keep up with draw by the RideWithGPS app if running, or (b) charge the phone VERY slowly when RideWithGPS is off. Better than nothing.

I believe my Vado USB is 1amp. Occasionally I have to plug my phone in multiple times to even get the phone to recognize the juice.

 

[mschwett]

I do not deny your observations. I admit torque sensing on a hub-drive might work by adjusting the amount of the motor power by the pedalling torque. That way, the cranks might work as yet another throttle, that is, the torque on the cranks could deliver more or less power to the motor up to the maximum allowed by a given assistance level. That is, if Level 1 allows 100 W max then hard mashing on the cranks could deliver 100 W of assistance at that level while light pedalling would give 50 W.

There is, however, a fundamental difference between a hub-drive and a mid-drive. While a torque-sensing hub-drive can only amplify the torque exerted by your feet, a mid-drive motor amplifies your leg power, that is cadence * torque. It means you can either mash or spin your cranks and the power to be amplified by the mid-drive motor might be the same in both cases.
...

while i'm sure many (even most) hub drives are implemented like this, there are no mechanical reasons which require it to be this way. with a hub drive, the speed of the chainring is directly related to the speed of the rear wheel in any given gear. there are multiple gears available of course, so the effective torque at the rear wheel varies. while it is possible for the chainring to spin faster than the rider is pedaling thanks to the clutch, that's a very wierd sensation and not the desired mode for a mid-drive. you can ascertain just how rare this is by using a tool like golden cheetah to compare pedaling cadence to speed, where other than coasting or ghost pedaling, cadence and speed remain in a fixed relationship regardless of motor assistance. in fact the software will even tell you what percentage of the time you were in each gear, without that information being in the file. were the chainring allowed to spin faster than the crank routinely, the torque on the crank would drop to zero, and we all know that torque sensor bikes don't assist when the torque sensor reads zero. the presence of this clutch is a non-factor, which makes the physics of the two systems extremely similar. on a hub drive, the speed of the motor and the speed of the wheel are completely fixed in relationship, since there are no gears between them. however, the speed of the bike varies, and the torque produced by the motor can be varied and is in fact directly proportional to current. the force exerted on the wheel is the sum of the rider input and the motor input, just like a mid drive.

there are lots of pros and cons to the two systems, but the only absolute difference between them is that there are no gears between the hub motor and the wheel, which causes the maximum POWER (not torque) of the hub drive to drop precipitously as bike speed approaches zero. this is not good for going slow up really steep hills. in every other way, two bikes of similar weight, similar electrical system, similar sensors similar output motors, one hub, one mid, can be engineered to feel nearly identical. this is not a theoretical proclamation - i've ridden thousands of miles on a creo and thousands of miles on a scott addict eRide, and other than the slow climbing scenario, they feel pretty much identical. the addict has additional user-changeable variables which can make it feel quite different than the creo (namely the ramp from no power to full power) but when set a certain way, it feels the same.

anyone who disagrees that this is possible with the correct engineering has simply never ridden the right two bikes back to back. like these two:

 

[Lippy]

Super informative. Thank you.

My experience with the Haul’s hub motor is exactly as you say. Its Achilles Heel is that scenario of slow speed up a steep hill. Happily I have the throttle installed so that helps a lot ( though it eats up the battery of course).

Also I’m finding that the throttle gets less powerful going up steep hills after the battery has drained below 40% or so. Why is that?