My New Globe Haul ST (2 weeks Old now)

[Stefan Mikes]

Also I’m finding that the throttle gets less powerful going up steep hills after the battery has drained below 40% or so. Why is that?

The battery voltage gradually drops as the battery gets discharged, so the power delivered to the motor drops, too. Do not expect a sophisticated electronics in the Globe system.

I'm sure @mschwett can explain another thing: How come a Turbo e-bike does not lose the power down to at least 20% battery charge (or even less)? The voltage drop with the battery discharge is a universal phenomenon. More advanced electronics in the Turbo system, or?

Besides: @mschwett, you are comparing advanced e-bike systems: SL vs. X20. Bear in mind the Globe system is rather generic. When was the last time you owned a generic hub-drive e-bike? (I still own one!)

 

[mschwett]

The battery voltage gradually drops as the battery gets discharged, so the power delivered to the motor drops, too. Do not expect a sophisticated electronics in the Globe system.

I'm sure @mschwett can explain another thing: How come a Turbo e-bike does not lose the power down to at least 20% battery charge (or even less)? The voltage drop with the battery discharge is a universal phenomenon. More advanced electronics in the Turbo system, or?

it probably just doesn’t often need to use the full voltage. i believe the SL battery for example is 10S4P, so 42v max, 37v “nominal” and specialized is probably pretty conservative, with “0” likely being at least 30v. voltage has much more to do with speed than anything else, it’s current which corresponds to torque which is what accelerates the bicycle or overcomes the other forces trying to decelerate it.

i’m no electrical engineer, but i have to imagine you could design the system to give the right amount of both current and voltage to the motor over a range of battery voltages and speeds as long as the power was within the limits of the system.

 

[Lippy]

Still trying to understand the motor/battery relationship:

I’ve heard that “speed is the enemy of battery life”.

So ( - on a flat stretch of road) if I’m on assist 2 and pedaling to get up to 16 mph for, say a mile. Would I be using up MORE battery if I rode the same route agin but this time with assist 2 and pedaling to a speed of 22 mph?

And if that DID use up more battery in the 2nd scenario, WHY?

 

[mschwett]

Still trying to understand the motor/battery relationship:

I’ve heard that “speed is the enemy of battery life”.

So ( - on a flat stretch of road) if I’m on assist 2 and pedaling to get up to 16 mph for, say a mile. Would I be using up MORE battery if I rode the same route agin but this time with assist 2 and pedaling to a speed of 22 mph?

And if that DID use up more battery in the 2nd scenario, WHY?

assuming you’re not going uphill, the vast majority of the energy required to move forward on a bike is to defeat wind resistance. this is why road bikes look the way they do, low in the front, narrow, frame profiles tucked behind the tires, deep wheel profiles, and why serious cyclists wear smooth tight fitting clothing etc.

the wind resistance increases exponentially as you increase in speed - by more than the square of the difference in speed. in your scenario above, it takes around 200w of power to go 16mph on an upright bike with wide tires. very crudely, a 600wh battery would last for three hours and you’d go 48 miles. (16x3). you need to take your legs’ contribution to the equation into account, but generally speaking the controllers of e-bikes are programmed to provide more power at higher speeds, or, with a torque sensor, more power if you pedal harder.

despite being only a third faster, it takes twice as much power to go 22mph. 400w out of that same 600wh battery only lasts an hour and a half, and so you’ll only go 33 miles (22x1.5)

it gets worse though, if you had enough power to go 28, the battery wouldn’t even last an hour, and range would be down in the 25 mile ballpark. so, the answer to go far on an e-bike is 1) reduce drag as much as possible, and 2) pedal hard yourself but without causing the motor to draw more juice, which means paying attention to the power settings and results in 3) going slow lol.

 

[Lippy]

Great, clear explanation. Thanks so much!

 

[Truman p.]

In reference to the comment about the motor limiting speed to 28mph. There is truth to that and i'd like to know more about it. If I go down a steep hill and pedal, it will limit my speed to ~28mpg and it feels like the brakes are on. If I stop pedaling after 2ish seconds it will start to coast and will allow me and the bike to accelerate to whatever speed the slope will allow. Is the motor braking or is there a possibility of regen?

I tend to ride this thing on setting 1-2 for the majority of our trips. We use settings 4-5 for our very steep driveway and to get up to speed out of an intersection. I bring this up to mention that It feels like there is some sort of preferred cadence or torque production that the bike or I prefer. Even at power level 1 it feels effortless at times to maintain high speeds.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

In reference to the comment about the motor limiting speed to 28mph. There is truth to that and i'd like to know more about it. If I go down a steep hill and pedal, it will limit my speed to ~28mpg and it feels like the brakes are on. If I stop pedaling after 2ish seconds it will start to coast and will allow me and the bike to accelerate to whatever speed the slope will allow. Is the motor braking or is there a possibility of regen?

It is only your impression as you are losing several hundred watts of assistance instantly. Then, the gravity takes over, and gravity is worth thousands of watts on a steep descent.

 

[Truman p.]

It is only your impression as you are losing several hundred watts of assistance instantly. Then, the gravity takes over, and gravity is worth thousands of watts on a steep descent.

No its not my impression. It's whats happening. But thanks for the response.

 

[Truman p.]

Just another example here I was pedaling down a hill and was limited to 28mph for about half of the hill and it was obviously holding me back. I stopped pedaling and in about 1-2 seconds I started coasting up to about 35mph. Started pedaling again and it basically felt like brakes were applying heavily and it slowed me to ~28mph. It's not a feeling, its whats happening.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Just another example here I was pedaling down a hill and was limited to 28mph for about half of the hill and it was obviously holding me back. I stopped pedaling and in about 1-2 seconds I started coasting up to about 35mph. Started pedaling again and it basically felt like brakes were applying heavily and it slowed me to ~28mph. It's not a feeling, its whats happening.

Perhaps it is the electromotive force of the hub-drive motor holding you back but decidedly not a regen.
This never happens on mid-drives which have a clutch to release the motor at assistance loss.

 

[Truman p.]

Perhaps it is the electromotive force of the hub-drive motor holding you back but decidedly not a regen.
This never happens on mid-drives which have a clutch to release the motor at assistance loss.

Electromotive Force, I like it. I do not fully understand it but I am going to go try to get a better grasp on it. A mid drive motor has two clutches between the pedals and the wheel(There is the clutch at the chainring/mid drive and the clutch in the wheel)so it would coast faster with no issue but is their resistance in the pedals when trying to exceed the rated speed? This may vary by system Im assuming? I will try it with my wife's Giant Trance.

 

[mschwett]

Electromotive Force, I like it. I do not fully understand it but I am going to go try to get a better grasp on it. A mid drive motor has two clutches between the pedals and the wheel(There is the clutch at the chainring/mid drive and the clutch in the wheel)so it would coast faster with no issue but is their resistance in the pedals when trying to exceed the rated speed? This may vary by system Im assuming? I will try it with my wife's Giant Trance.

i do not think there are any - or certainly not many - geared hub motors without a clutch. the two i have (one bafang one mahle) certainly have clutches, and there is essentially no drag at all at any speed when the motor is not assisting. of course you are spinning around the weight of the motor when accelerating, but that’s really a very, very, very small amount of resistance compared to moving the bicycle.

there are direct drive hub motors with regenerative braking which introduce a LOT of drag through what’s being referred to here as the “electromotive force” in which a motor becomes a generator when operated in reverse. never heard of a geared motor that tried to do so. if you had a direct drive motor you’d know - they’re huge.

 

[Cargonaut]

i do not think there are any - or certainly not many - geared hub motors without a clutch. the two i have (one bafang one mahle) certainly have clutches, and there is essentially no drag at all at any speed when the motor is not assisting. of course you are spinning around the weight of the motor when accelerating, but that’s really a very, very, very small amount of resistance compared to moving the bicycle.

there are direct drive hub motors with regenerative braking which introduce a LOT of drag through what’s being referred to here as the “electromotive force” in which a motor becomes a generator when operated in reverse. never heard of a geared motor that tried to do so. if you had a direct drive motor you’d know - they’re huge.

Grin Technologies has a GMAC geared hub motor with no clutch that allows brake regen, it's a collaboration with MAC motors, I have not tried one, but it and the All-Axle hub motor from Grin are very interesting. Specs on the GMAC:

GMAC - Grin Kits - Product Info

The GMAC motor is Grin’s customization of the powerful rear MAC motor, modified to run without a clutch for regenerative braking, a huge plus for cargo hauling applications. A round axle and integrated torque arm allow for powerful regen without risk of axle spinout.

ebikes.ca

 

[mschwett]

Grin Technologies has a GMAC geared hub motor with no clutch that allows brake regen, it's a collaboration with MAC motors, I have not tried one, but it and the All-Axle hub motor from Grin are very interesting. Specs on the GMAC:

GMAC - Grin Kits - Product Info

The GMAC motor is Grin’s customization of the powerful rear MAC motor, modified to run without a clutch for regenerative braking, a huge plus for cargo hauling applications. A round axle and integrated torque arm allow for powerful regen without risk of axle spinout.

ebikes.ca

the “electronic freewheeling” is an interesting concept! i do a lot of descending on almost all my utility rides and have always thought regen would be interesting despite generally not making sense for e-bikes.

 

[mfgrep]

Not sure what it is that is happening here. The 28mph limit, in any and every bike that I've been familiar with, merely stops providing motor assist when 28mph is reached. None that I am aware of applies a clutch, brake, or otherwise to contain your speed within that limit. Your bike could theoretically travel at 100mph if your legs or gravity provide such power/force.... But the motor stops running once 28mph is reached. Your bike is a heavy one and perhaps you are merely feeling the lack of motor assist and thus your overall raw weight when the speed limit is reached? On a heavy bike this sudden loss of power could 'feel' like something that it is not.

 

[Lippy]

Hi guys - It's been a while (I bought my Haul back in April of this year ('24). Been quite pleased with so much about it. It's really been a great alternative ride for me (perhaps a bit too much - I don't ride my analog bike nearly as much as I used to). But just today I noticed that on a slight downhill grade the bike is barely moving when I just let it "cruise" (no pedaling - just gravity). I KNOW it's a heavy bike, but I thought it'd be more free wheeling. I started to wonder if my wheels were binding up or something.

Question:
When the Haul is propped up on its kickstand I tap the wheels (especially the back wheel) very gently to see how freewheeling they are and I can see the wheel sort of stops quite quickly. VERY little rotation on it - especially the back wheel).
Is this "normal" or should my wheels be rotating quite freely (like on my analog bike)?

 

[indianajo]

I check my disk temperature with my finger after pedaling a while to see if the pads are dragging. Sometimes they are, it is warm. Then I have to adjust something.
Back wheel should coast a bit in the forwards direction. About same as front wheel. Look to see if tire is dragging on something like a fender strut. If that is not it, you may have a clutch problem. Besides motor clutch, on a mid-drive, there is a one way clutch in the cassette hub. Try a little penetrating oil spray, but do not expect it to last more than a week. Penetrating oil evaporates. Best way to lube the clutch is disassembly and then 5W or SUS46 non-detergent oil. Like generic tractor hydraulic fluid (no manufacturer specs on label) or Type F or A ATF. Not dexron or mercon, those have detergent in them that takes moisture out of the air. Air tool oil if you have access to a home store with compressors and air wrenches. You'll need a tool to take a cassette retainer off, like the Park . Also a 1" box wrench or socket.

 

[Lippy]

I check my disk temperature with my finger after pedaling a while to see if the pads are dragging. Sometimes they are, it is warm. Then I have to adjust something.
Back wheel should coast a bit in the forwards direction. About same as front wheel. Look to see if tire is dragging on something like a fender strut. If that is not it, you may have a clutch problem. Besides motor clutch, on a mid-drive, there is a one way clutch in the cassette hub. Try a little penetrating oil spray, but do not expect it to last more than a week. Penetrating oil evaporates. Best way to lube the clutch is disassembly and then 5W or SUS46 non-detergent oil. Like generic tractor hydraulic fluid (no manufacturer specs on label) or Type F or A ATF. Not dexron or mercon, those have detergent in them that takes moisture out of the air. Air tool oil if you have access to a home store with compressors and air wrenches. You'll need a tool to take a cassette retainer off, like the Park . Also a 1" box wrench or socket.

Thank you for the info. I *did * notice that the rear tire “coasts” a bit more freely in the forward rotation than the back -which stops rotating much sooner. Maybe my bike is just fine?

 

[Buellwinkle]

I traded in a 2018 Expert Carbon Turbo Levo for my new Globe Haul ST. I am 73 years old and the Levo had become too much bike for my riding objectives. I am now Bike and Walking paths and wanted to try to be a bit more "Car-Less" in my daily life.

I have run into a controller to bike error situation. I am getting the C 032 and B 032 error codes. This is a Battery/Controller communication error. I am working with my LBS under warranty and am waiting for a new battery mount from Specialized. This will be a couple of weeks due to logistics issue at Specialized. I love the bike so far, so I am hoping for a solution sooner than later.

The fix for this code is to remove and replace the battery. This does reset the error code but only until the next bump. I have learned that I can reseat it while riding by doing a little bunny hop on the front end. This seems to reset it. Again, till then next "un-setting".

I have done 75 miles so far and it is all errand running that would have been done by car. The bank, grocery store, hardware store, pharmacy, and even fast food pickups have been done on the ST. It is a perfect small hauler for me. I did PAY to have my version of perfect. I really have every option that is NOT passenger oriented. Front Rack, Front and Rear Panniers, 2 bottle cages (one water, one coffee), and the throttle. The throttle is really a big plus for my safety in my Urban Shopping travels. I use it from the stop at stop lights, traffic circles, and entry/exit from the paths and walkways. Using the throttle instead of the first "big pumps" to get started lets me focus on what's happening in the intersection. It is worth the cost.

My biggest load has been about 65 pounds split between two cave panniers and a basket on the front rack. Due to the low center of gravity with the panniers, this was absolutely a NO drama transport. With the throttle for the starts, huge brakes for the stops, the 5 power levels, and the excellent gearing, it was a great run.

The biggest thing I am getting my head around is that I can make a 23 mile round trip run to the stores and get back with out a 911 call.

I am a new ST owner and a big fan. So far So good.

v/r r

I am 80 years old and need more exercise and got a new Stormer to get back in shape, I can do this without the fear of running low on energy on a long ride. Now if the dealer gets my bike back to me, I will be a happy camper !! !

 

[m@Robertson]

Is this "normal" or should my wheels be rotating quite freely (like on my analog bike)?

Your wheels should both be rotating freely forward. If they aren't then the first culprit to look for is your brake pad alignment. Make sure the pads are not dragging/are centered, and that you don't have a warped rotor messing things up.

Basically exactly the same thing you deal with on an analog bike. No difference. Your geared hub motor is clutched and should freewheel forward just like a regular wheel. Rotating it backwards will give resistance thanks to the motor being the hub.