mid drives are not for everyone/throttles are fine

[AHicks]

Honestly, as much as I don't want to get involved in this silly pissing match, I will say that what @JES2020 says about shifting a geared hub has been my experience as well. You can hammer the throttle all you want (and I do) and shift as you please because the hub powers the bike thru the axle, not the chain. Compounding this is the motor freewheels forward. Taking both of those things into account, there is no pressure *from the motor* on the drivetrain. Now, there IS pressure from the rider, and on an analog bike, you shift under hard pressure all the time. However to muddy up an already murky subject, hub motor bikes typically have s*it drivetrains because the manufacturer cuts corners because they know the manual drivetrain is forever playing second fiddle. So shifting under foot power is in fact more likely to be problematic because of the cheap components, AND because of the motor casing now holding on the freewheel versus it being a nice stout hub bolted directly to the dropouts.

Did I just make the opposite case for the one I said I was going to make?

Well, the whole 'in my experience' thing is because when I am running my 2wd hub bike, its commuting on flat, level pavement and I seldom shift to do anything but increase my cadence. In that world I could care less what the motor is doing as I am never putting hard pressure on the pedals unless I am already in low gear and have crossed 28 mph.

No matter what anyone's anecdotal experience: hubs are at a disadvantage on hills, period.

The stuff about losing a chain? Carry one. Its an ebike. Who cares if you add a half pound? The burger and soda you stuffed into your face mid-ride weighs more, most likely.

Not intended as a pissing match. We'll need to agree to disagree regarding shifting an analog bike I guess.

To me it's like shifting gears in a car or truck. Sure you can shift without a clutch, but done long term you're going to be using more parts than most others will....

 

[JRA]

I have heard their are some DDs that don't have "much " drag, smaller ones obviously will have less drag.
It's not really a "friction element", (so I don't know what effect Statorade would have, which is mostly for cooling the motor), It has to do with magnetic resistance.

Anyway, here is a quote from BikeBerry.com, re; DD hubs:
"Moreover, the magnetic field these motors have will produce drag when pedaling or coasting, making it slower when not throttled and harder to pedal."

Heres the thing, the "I have heard" argument doesn't really mean much to me as someone that has actually experienced DD motors in lots of different situations from 30mph 17 mile long speed runs to crawling up dirt mining roads. And both of my DD motors were capable of over 1000w output so not small.

And how do you think that Statorade helps to cool a DD motor? It reduces the friction between the stator and the magnets while still allowing for the transfer of electricity between them. Friction causes heat.....

Here is a picture of my current setup with the Grin hub motor that I got a chance to ride around quite a bit un powered in and around different terrains with some significant elevation changes. It actually surprised me that is did so well.

I also have been using mid drive systems for my mtb riding for a number of years and do prefer that for trail and general dirt use but for primarily road riding I prefer the hub bikes. To me having both at hand is truly the best of both world's.

 

[JES2020]

And how do you think that Statorade helps to cool a DD motor? It reduces the friction between the stator and the magnets

I have heard, lol. But seriously, Statorade helps cool the DDs by making more contact with the hub casing , called a heat sink.
Here is the explanation from Grin: .....Do you understand?

 

[AHicks]

Plenty of DD experience here as well, but I have to agree about the purpose of Statoraide. The copper winding on the motor stator get HOT when under load. The Statoraide helps conduct heat away from those windings, transferring the absorbed heat to the motor side covers. If the direct drive hubs have an advantage, it's here, with their ability to dissipate heat MUCH better the either the geared hub or mid drive. The geared hubs and mid drives both have their motors buried with very little cooling available. It's why neither are generally used in serious go fast attempts. The DD's are also the motor of choice for commuting long distance at max speed, or for use with 60v+ performance stuff.

I would agree as well that all 3 drive types, direct and gear driven hubs, as well as the mid drives, ALL have an environment/set of circumstances where they excel.

Do any do everything well? Nope, that would be way too easy. ALL 3 have their downsides.

 

[JES2020]

Plenty of DD experience here as well, but I have to agree about the purpose of Statoraide. The copper winding on the motor stator get HOT when under load. The Statoraide helps conduct heat away from those windings, transferring the absorbed heat to the motor side covers. If the direct drive hubs have an advantage, it's here, with their ability to dissipate heat MUCH better the either the geared hub or mid drive. The geared hubs and mid drives both have their motors buried with very little cooling available. It's why neither are generally used in serious go fast attempts. The DD's are also the motor of choice for commuting long distance at max speed, or for use with 60v+ performance stuff.

I would agree as well that all 3 drive types, direct and gear driven hubs, as well as the mid drives, ALL have an environment/set of circumstances where they excel.

Do any do everything well? Nope, that would be way too easy. ALL 3 have their downsides.

If the direct drive hubs have an advantage, it's here, with their ability to dissipate heat MUCH better the either the geared hub or mid drive. The geared hubs and mid drives both have their motors buried with very little cooling available.

Actually, there is very significant cooling available for geared hubs !
It comes in the form of oil cooling.
It has been very systematically tested by many ppl, including some on Endlessphere, one of which actually made a grid of the cooling effect, matched with exact amounts of oil.

Since I have again modded my controller to increase the amps from 18 (stated 22 max), to 38 peak amps , I read with much attention on the methodology.
To wit, I have prepped my motor to seal the oil and installed a temp sensor for next season.

I also sealed my controller, as the first mod I installed, reverted due to the heat. Now I can also cool my controller, if needed with oil !

This in my opinion makes geared hubs, the KING of e-bike motors, small weight; greater efficiency at speed and the ability to cool a over amped motor which not only saves the windings but improves acceleration and efficiency !

BTW utilities have been using oil to cool their electric motors for many decades.

 

[JRA]

I apologize for my misrepresentation of Statorade but as the only person on the conversation that actually uses it and reaps its benefits I do notice the difference, especially when I applied it to my 9c motor that the minimal drag it had was dramatically decreased. The All Axle also but it had less to begin with and neither was such as described as barely able to roll down hill without being powered up. I have ridden both bikes for miles without the batteries aboard and they go just fine up and down. I really get good use out of the regen as a drag brake also which is a feature that is not available on mid drives or geared hub motors.

As far as climbing goes this is a 5yr old video I took of climbing a steep old mining road that was just one of many I did that day and other days also.

I am not advocating that everyone should go out and get a DD hub bike but that they are a valid part of the eBike conversation if used correctly, with "used" being the operative word.

 

[JES2020]

I apologize for my misrepresentation of Statorade

No problem , we all make mistakes. I made a mistake...once !

I am not advocating that everyone should go out and get a DD hub bike but that they are a valid part of the eBike conversation

Absolutely, only the DD are capable of 12k and up voltage. If you want to go really really really (I heard of one doing 60 mph) fast,the DD is the only means, so far.
For me, until I buy an electric motorcycle, I prefer the coasting vs the regen as my set up gives me 60 plus miles anyway,(it would be less with regen's drag) so a few more volts from regen is pretty much useless.
BTW is it normal for your bike to make so much noise?

 

[JES2020]

as the only person on the conversation that actually uses it and reaps its benefits I do notice the difference,

I know we men like our toys. We tend to think we know everything about something we have owned for awhile. I always have liked the saying, just because you have driven a car with transmission doesn't mean you could rebuilt it, or even know how it works.

 

[AHicks]

I apologize for my misrepresentation of Statorade but as the only person on the conversation that actually uses it and reaps its benefits I do notice the difference, especially when I applied it to my 9c motor that the minimal drag it had was dramatically decreased. The All Axle also but it had less to begin with and neither was such as described as barely able to roll down hill without being powered up. I have ridden both bikes for miles without the batteries aboard and they go just fine up and down. I really get good use out of the regen as a drag brake also which is a feature that is not available on mid drives or geared hub motors.

As far as climbing goes this is a 5yr old video I took of climbing a steep old mining road that was just one of many I did that day and other days also.

I am not advocating that everyone should go out and get a DD hub bike but that they are a valid part of the eBike conversation if used correctly, with "used" being the operative word.

Regarding the ability to climb, I'm left wondering what you weigh if you don't mind? This with the thought that a DD will climb if pointed up a hill, BUT IMHO, as compared to other type drives, it's going to be pretty limited regarding just how much of a load it will handle going up hill - on a 48v system at least. I do understand the DD's REALLY respond to higher voltage from a performance perspective (because of their ability to cool). Though I've never ridden one, I understand DD performance on 60-72v is pretty respectable, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

Here's what Grin says about their Statorade: https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/statorade.html

I see little mention of any lubricating properties, but maybe that's just a bonus.

Actually, there is very significant cooling available for geared hubs !
It comes in the form of oil cooling.

You and I had this conversation not too long ago. At that point you were pretty light on your ability to provide documentation that applied to geared hubs. To that conversation, I'll add that while anything is possible with enough time and money thrown at it, because you read something about it being possible to do (especially when it comes to DD motors), it does NOT make it a practical option for our geared hub motors. You're welcome to your opinion, but I prefer mine to be more relevant and practical in nature. Understand I am NOT denying the potential for oil cooling an electric motor. My point applies to geared hub motors. Can it be done? Sure! Is it common practice? Not hardly....

 

[JES2020]

because you read something about it being possible to do (especially when it comes to DD motors), it does NOT make it a practical option for our geared hub motors.

Well Al "there you go again", you seem to consistently (maybe purposely?), misread my comments re: "oil cooling geared hubs". This time you quoted my statement where I specifically point out "OIL COOLED GEARED HUBS " So what gives???

I'll add that while anything is possible with enough time and money thrown at it,

Yes, I threw a ton of money and time at it. If you consider 1/2 hour and 1/2 cent of sealent, an impressive amount . Do you?

does NOT make it a practical option for our geared hub motors.

In fact oil cooling geared hubs improves efficiency.
Can you get more practical than that?

I have a feeling you have a more emotional reason for displaying such a contrarian attitude. Care to share what that might be?

 

[AHicks]

Well Al "there you go again", you seem to consistently (maybe purposely?), misread my comments re: "oil cooling geared hubs". This time you quoted my statement where I specifically point out "OIL COOLED GEARED HUBS " So what gives???

Yes, I threw a ton of money and time at it. If you consider 1/2 hour and 1/2 cent of sealent, an impressive amount . Do you?

In fact oil cooling geared hubs improves efficiency.
Can you get more practical than that?

I have a feeling you have a more emotional reason for displaying such a contrarian attitude. Care to share what that might be?

Truth? I don't like the idea of bad information being spread, possibly to somebody that may believe you enough to give it a try, only to find out later what a waste of time and money that information was. In other words, learning the hard way.

If you would like to share the fact you've managed to do what you're talking about, and willing to share the details (maybe a picture of YOUR install?), no issue here. But to present it in a manner where somebody may misinterpret it and assume this is a widespread mainstream practice, I find that an issue I'll likely speak up about. -Al

 

[Lightning 123]

Virtual flame thrower turned on.

 

[JES2020]

Virtual flame thrower turned on.

Are you referring to my comment??? Or the curmudgeon's?

 

[m@Robertson]

There is no king motor type. Each is good in some areas and SUCKS in at least one other. You just have to be experienced with the equipment, and not so emotionally invested in your own self-image to admit that reality.

 

[AHicks]

Are you referring to my comment??? Or the curmudgeon's?

If you'd like to continue our conversation, because many may find it boring here, let's take it private. If you think that's permission to get personal, it's not. I don't mind a discussion at all....

 

[JES2020]

There is no king motor type. Each is good in some areas and SUCKS in at least one other. You just have to be open minded and not emotionally invested in your own self-image to admit it.

Brahahaha.
Okay, I withdraw my opinion, because no opinions are allowed according to you !
Add a HUGE dose of sarcasm for the reading challenged.

 

[m@Robertson]

Brahahaha.
Okay, I withdraw my opinion, because no opinions are allowed according to you !

there you go again making stuff up. What are you, fifteen? Ask your mom why the adults think you are being a fool.

 

[JES2020]

There is no king motor type.

What exactly did I make up?

That I clearly stated that "in my opinion makes geared hubs, the KING of e-bike motors".
Too which you tried to blast it like, I was stating a fact !
Care to explain??
Calling someone a fool is in fact being childish. didn't your mommy tell you not to call ppl names??

 

[m@Robertson]

Arguing with a child is pointless.

 

[JES2020]

Arguing with a child is pointless.

Good then kick dirt !