Mahle X20

[Deleted member 46571]

Bullshit.
It is not the torque that drives the e-bike. It is the power of the motor. Especially the mechanical peak power.
Take an 80 Nm mid-drive motor on an e-MTB with gearing ratio of 0.75 (granny gear). On climbing, such a motor will produce as much as 120 Nm of torque on the rear wheel. A hub-drive motor would need to have 120 Nm of torque, and it will probably fry on a long ascent.

Hi all
Are the whole torque
Conversation
torque , motor power (watts) and rotational speed are all linked
And part of an equation
Yes a motor spins and pushes or powers the bike how well it’s does that and how quickly it is applied is torque in nM
The torque and speed relationship is inversely proportional since the rated output power of a motor is a fixed value. As output speed increases, the available output torque decreases proportionately. As the output torque increases, the output speed decreases proportionately.
So torque is akin to acceleration
So the x35 as far as I understand had the nylon reducing drive cogs from the motor to the back wheel hub this caused drag
i believe that x20 is more direct drive so much less drag and it is noticeable
Placing a motor directly on the back wheel and direct driving it is the most and best way for efficiency
Mid drive goes though chain ring , chain, derailleur and cassette
This produces losses
But the bigger picture for me is
Not comparing hub to mid drive torque (apples and oranges)
Is comparing x35 to x20
Apples to apples
Here the thing and to some of the points made by others
I now have a lighter bike, lighter motor with less wheel drag and apparently more torque
Do I notice the difference
Yes but it’s no where near what I expected it is subtle
but I believe it’s because of the weight difference of the bike
not because I have more torque
The scott is quicker on the flat when motor is off at 15 mph it should be with no drag and a lighter bike
But not quicker up the hills it should be
as slower speed more torque if the figures are what they tell us

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Just tell me what the peak power of X20 and X35 is.
Torque figure is meaningless as the torque at the rear wheel is constant for hub-drives but variable for mid-drives (the gearing will change the available rear wheel torque for the mid-drive).
You mentioned the bike weight. Specialized mid-drive SL e-bikes are in the range of X20 or X35 ones. They have no motor drag past 25 km/h either.
The SL peak power is 240 W mechanical, 303 W electrical.

 

[Deleted member 46571]

Just tell me what the peak power of X20 and X35 is.
Torque figure is meaningless as the torque at the rear wheel is constant for hub-drives but variable for mid-drives (the gearing will change the available rear wheel torque for the mid-drive).
You mentioned the bike weight. Specialized mid-drive SL e-bikes are in the range of X20 or X35 ones. They have no motor drag past 25 km/h either.
The SL peak power is 240 W mechanical, 303 W electrical.

So you should know the peak power of both x35 and the x20 as its in the spec readily available to read
So torque is meaningless is it
The manufactures does not see it that way as it is the figure they
Quote to sell there product as do car manufactures
Torque is the stuff that’s get a car from 0 to 60 in faster time not necessarily the motor or size of the motor be it electrical or mechanical
what do mean by the torque is constant at the rear hub
It is not
What did you not understand when I said that the torque varies with rotational speed of the motor
So you are saying the motor and wheel are at a constant speed
This is just one example off the web to illustrate
That torque is not meaningless

The power of a motor is the product of its speed and torque. The power output is greatest at about half way between the unloaded speed (maximum speed, no torque) and the stalled state (maximum torque, no speed). The output power in watts is about (torque) x (rpm) / 9.57.

Stefan I find the tone of you replies aggressive not constructive
The idea of a forum is to help others either from knowledge or experience to make an informed descion of what to buy and what are the pit falls or thing to look out forc
It’s not about who thinks he knows best
I have experience as a rider of these systems
I also have 45 years electronic and mechanical experience as a service engineer in million pound medical scanners
Which have motors and gear boxes
And slightly more complicated than a ebike

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I give all heck what tone of mine you find David. Discuss numbers.

You do not know the rotational speed relevant to the torque. You do not know the power of your motor because all Euro motor manufacturers say "250 W nominal" but avoid giving the peak power of their motors because of legal repercussions.

Specialized gave the peak power of their mid-drive SL 1.1 motor which is 240 W mechanical. They gave maximum torque of that motor (35 Nm). Now calculate the rpm and tell me where that rotational speed occurs.

Give or calculate the peak power of X20 and X35 motors now, assuming the torque is relevant to the rear wheel rpm. (At what bike speed?)

 

[Deleted member 46571]

I give all heck what tone of mine you find David. Discuss numbers.

You do not know the rotational speed relevant to the torque. You do not know the power of your motor because all Euro motor manufacturers say "250 W nominal" but avoid giving the peak power of their motors because of legal repercussions.

Specialized gave the peak power of their mid-drive SL 1.1 motor which is 240 W mechanical. They gave maximum torque of that motor (35 Nm). Now calculate the rpm and tell me where that rotational speed occurs.

Give or calculate the peak power of X20 and X35 motors now, assuming the torque is relevant to the rear wheel rpm. (At what bike speed?)

Stefan I did mention I was an engineer
Rotation of motor easy calculation if you know how
Toque is shown on app
Rider pedal torque and motor torque
All of these can be calculated
As the design engineer have done

What did it for me with you
Is torque is meaningless statement
Even when I pointed out you have not got a clue what you are saying
And toruque is fundamental to motors
You are still banging on
And secondly that don’t care what people think
So I got better thing to do with my time so I will leave this forum
Apologies to those who needed constructive real world feedback

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm an engineer, too, an MSc.
If you think torque is fundamental, please explain meaning of the torque when your bike travels at 5 then at 15 mph (the rear wheel rpm three times greater in the latter case).

In Specialized motors it is the electrical power shown on the display.

Would you do some example calculations please?

 

[Dancelli]

Hi
I am 61 and ride everyday
So 1300 miles on my scott
In 3 months x20
You should get 50 miles on level one without an issue with x35 and x20 mostly flat riding
The x35 I got 35 miles after 16 months using levels 1,2and 3 on eight hills every day on orbea
Charging every day 358 days a year
Battery will deterate over time
But happy with that
If you go by the app or pulsa one you should see the distance for battery for a ride this is calculated by battery voltage vs miles and is averaged out across various rides and terrain over time if you do mixed ride flats and hills then the value will change not by much
The app had issues now fixed dec 22 that this calculation was way out in the 1200 miles range it’s taken 2 months to average it down to a more realistic value of 65 miles on the Scott but still it’s too high
So will have to wait and for another month should be at the correct miles calculation by then
So at the moment a 25 mile ride each day 8 big hills very few flats I would say 45 miles which is about right
As for power motor map settings
Mine is on custom with all the setting to max
So in conclusion mostly flat riding level one should give you 50 + miles
hills lots riding 40 miles
mix riding 45 to 50 miles
You will never get 70 miles out of the either system
Only with extender
If you do very long steep hills on max assistance then 35 miles is worst case scenario
But some of the hills I do are Streep and over 2 miles long
Hope this info helps
Let me know how you get on

Hi Dave
Thanks for the reply only ridden the Scott 3 times since January and Saturday was the first 40 mile ride resulting in a dead battery at 35 miles Similar rides last year with the X35 Lappierre were never a problem arriving back after 40 miles in hilly Northumberland with 15% spare at an average of 13.5mph
I’ve just got an X20 range extender so will keep you informed perhaps warmer weather may also help a little

 

[CaptainMux]

When MAHLE introduced the X20, it claimed a torque of "23Nm at the hub, which equates 55-60Nm torque output from a mid-drive motor". Now they claim a peak torque of 55Nm, apparently at the motor, since they dropped the comparison to a mid drive.

I smell a rat.

Any comparison of torque at the hub to torque at the crank that doesn't include what the gear ratio is for the comparison, is misleading and probably intentionally misleading.

Shame on MAHLE!

 

[Deacon Blues]

I like the look of the Orbea Gain X20, and I like the idea of a hub motor, but there is no way I'd buy one, at $10,000, without riding one first.
Unfortunately, where I live that would be next to impossible, since the bike shops where I live will only bring in these expensive bikes when they're ordered.

 

[Bigmal]

I did see there were some threads about something else that referenced the Mahle X20 but no threads on it.

X20 System - MAHLE Smartbike Systems

X20 System The System Components Video The new revolution has arrived X20 System: The lightest and smartest eBike rear hub system on the market Watch the Video X20, the new milestone in the smartbike industry Ultracompact, light and smart system that creates a full range of new riding...

mahle-smartbike.com

I'm quite excited about this system. I suppose most of this forum tend to like higher power motors and bigger batteries, but I prefer lightweight systems that provide a bit of assistance as that's all I need when I want some.

What I really like about this hub motor system is that it uses a thru axle and this makes it easy to change a flat while you're out on the road. Really no different than a non-motorized bike. To me that's a huge plus. I previously was biased towards mid-drive primarily because of this issue. I don't want to be 40-50 km's from home with a flat tire and not be able to easily change it. So for me this new system is a game changer and wow is it ever light.

Scott has already released a bike, albeit quite an expensive one, with this system and Dura Ace. They claim that bike weighs 23.6 lbs. So I can see a more affordable version with 105 or Tiagra weighing around 27 to 28 lbs, which I think is pretty light for an ebike. I think my Creo weighs around 33-34 lbs, so this would be quite a bit lighter! I'm looking forward to some bikes with the Mahle X20 system over the next few years.

I just had my first ride on my new Scott Addict Eride 30. First impression is that i might have found the holy grail. Previous ride X35+ and Pinarello Nytro on Fazua didn't give the feel of a real road bike. The lack of drag on the X20 is great.
Its exactly what i wanted which is what you said. A bit of help on the hills but still that racing performance that make you want to keep going faster.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I was disappointed that the 2023 Orbea X20 didn't come with any attachment points for fenders.
I know there are fenders that don't need attachment points-I have a set for my Giant Defy. They're okay, but need adjustments before almost every ride.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I've been trying to order a 2023 Scott Solace, with the TQ motor from my local Scott dealer, but so far there isn't any available and the area Scott rep doesn't know when one will be available.
Interestingly, my dealer phoned me today to tell me that I can get, right away, an Addict eRide 20, with the Mahle 20 motor.
I've looked at this bike in the past, but crossed it off my list, because I thought the bike's geometry was more fast-road bike, rather than the more layed-back, touring style of the Solace.
Am I wrong to thing this?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

rather than the more layed-back, touring style of the Solace.

Isn't the name Scott Solace Gravel eRide? That explains the difference.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Isn't the name Scott Solace Gravel eRide? That explains the difference.

The Solace comes in two versions-gravel and road. Both use the same frame, but have different tires and group sets.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The Solace comes in two versions-gravel and road. Both use the same frame, but have different tires and group sets.

Thank you Deacon. Didn't know about it! (I'm always interested in gravel e-bikes although cannot buy the next e-bike!)

 

[Router]

Hello, is there a dongle or other system availeble to increase the EU speed from 25km/h on the X20 system?

Thanks

Router

 

[Aivapower]

Hello, is there a dongle or other system availeble to increase the EU speed from 25km/h on the X20 system?

Thanks

Router

I wouldn't recommend if there was. Motor fails constantly in this model (see other thread) and they have a log meaning warranty will be void if they see motor was on >25km/h and you will have to pay 2000$ just to replace it.

 

[rtp]

It's unfortunate that 'deleted member 46571' left us.
Motors, whether gas, diesel, or electric, do indeed have relative speed vs torque, HP, power relationships. Sadly, no one, Specialized included AFAIK, have stepped forward with more meaningful dyno plots for their powers, and instead play games with 'nominal' and 'peak' values. Partly this is probably down to EU ebike legislation and the way it's been written, but there's more to the story, and would love to see real dyno plots including with some other variables, e.g. gearing for mid-drives, or similar.

Here's a dyno plot for a Tesla:

https://external-preview.redd.it/ymXhc5chdn4YxzGbJpjTi3diYdjx532MlyALOC3FHCo.png

 

[Deacon Blues]

A couple of months ago I looked into purchasing an Orbea Gain, with the new X20 motor. I think I dodged a bullet by not buying one.

 

[mschwett]

It's unfortunate that 'deleted member 46571' left us.
Motors, whether gas, diesel, or electric, do indeed have relative speed vs torque, HP, power relationships. Sadly, no one, Specialized included AFAIK, have stepped forward with more meaningful dyno plots for their powers, and instead play games with 'nominal' and 'peak' values. Partly this is probably down to EU ebike legislation and the way it's been written, but there's more to the story, and would love to see real dyno plots including with some other variables, e.g. gearing for mid-drives, or similar.

Here's a dyno plot for a Tesla:

https://external-preview.redd.it/ymXhc5chdn4YxzGbJpjTi3diYdjx532MlyALOC3FHCo.png

there’s a fair amount of data out there. given the light weight and limited battery capacity of e-bikes, peak output is probably less important than efficiency or torque at various speeds/cadences/power levels. and yeah, the nominal power thing is a joke!