Looking for first ebike (tons of range, throttle, thick tire, no more than 1500 CAD)

[Twiglaser]

Hi guys,

I'm looking to buy my first e-bike costing no more than 1500 CAD. I really like the stats on the Qualisports Dolphin (62.5Miles!?!) . All I really want is something with a lot of range, throttle, and thick tires (to help with the snowy Canada roads). The problem is that it seems the Dolphin has way more range than the Baluga, but I want the Baluga tires. Can someone confirm how the Baluga compares to the Dolphin in terms of range? I understand that for the dolphin it says "between 50-60 miles of utilizing the PAS (Pedal Assist) mode and 30 miles range on the throttle mode in a single charge." So if the baluga is 25+ with throttle, then thats probably equal to the dolphin (concerning throttle). But if its 25+ miles PAS, then its going to be even less with throttle, which is not acceptable.

Also, I'm not married to Qualisports, so if theres a similar bike out there in terms of range but with thicc tires, I'd like to know about it! Doesn't have to be foldable..

As for how I'm going to use it, I'll just be commuting to work everyday using the throttle (10km a day) and going to other areas in the city (for groceries, dinner parties, etc). The reason I'm looking for a lot of range is because I want the battery to meet my needs for a long time. 60/30 miles Is too much even for me, but thats going to degrade over time so I'd like to have that buffer. I may have no choice but to buy another battery at some point..

Also any comments or questions are welcome

 

[rich c]

Don’t believe any of those range numbers. Subtract at least 1/2 if you use the throttle a lot and another 1/3 for cold weather. Subtract another 1/4 for riding in deep snow.

 

[ebikemom]

Rider weight also impacts range. And, batteries degrade over time. If your need for 30 miles is a 30 mile round-trip commute, you can do my fave strategy: an extra charger at work. I don't normally need it (my 26 mile RT is no problem for my bike), but if commute after having done a recreational ride or a few grocery runs and didn't re-charge for the next morning, being able to zip off to work without a worry is great, and I can top off at if I have any range concerns for the way home.

On throttle: You can extend range by using the throttle only when needed. For me, "needed" is when starting while aimed up a significant hill. Otherwise, I don't need the throttle, though I often do use throttle starts in contexts where I'm not trying to get max range. A throttle start is nice for zipping through a city intersection, for example.

Also, on tires: These are a replacable item. I used my bike's OEM tires till I wore them out and then got a much better set of tires. Tires aren't that expensive, so are an easy upgrade, after that first set.

Happy shopping!

 

[maria.owenby]

Yeah those ranges are all "very optimistic" values. Especially the ones some hub motors claim. I can't see anyone making 80 miles on single range on a hub motor e-bike.

Hub motors have less range than mid motors
Fat tires have less range due to friction
Cold weather as mentioned decreases your range
Snow, hills are your enemies.
If you need to have lots of stops then also subtract some from your range.

Use your common sense about the range. I bought an e-bike which had a claimed range of 60 miles but I knew I can make only 40 miles on it. (haven't tried the full range but I feel 35 miles is what I can get from that bike).

If you have deep pocket invest into another battery for extra range. If money is tight then invest into a lightweight charger if range is very important for you .

 

[Mass Deduction]

You're asking for it to be good quality, long range, and inexpensive. I fear no such combination is available. If you want to hit such a low price, quality at a minimum will suffer IMO (if not range as well). As others have said, throttle usage dramatically reduces range. That said, since the highest quality bikes rarely have a throttle, they may not meet your stated needs either. So you're in a quandary for sure.

There are people using and enjoying these inexpensive e-bikes every day. And if you're talking 10km a day then it may last you several years. Just understand that there's a possibility that bike shops won't be able to repair things for you down the road, and the company may go out of business (or may move on to new models and lose interest in supporting older models). We've seen that kind of thing a lot from e-bike start-ups, unfortunately.

As to the two bikes you mentioned, one of the reasons the Dolphin probably has better range than the Beluga is because of the Dolphin's skinnier tires, but I'd err on the side of the bike that will handle the snowy roads better. Perhaps in the summer you could switch the tires out to skinnier tires on the Beluga for an efficiency boost.

One thing to consider, though. As class 1 e-bikes get more and more powerful, the throttle gets less necessary. If you have a super powerful bike, you can pedal very gently (barely putting any pressure on the pedals at all) and go like stink without breaking any kind of sweat. It's possible to pedal so gently that it feels like you're spinning against almost no resistance, almost stretching your legs more than working them. Short of a mobility impairment, that's essentially equivalent to a throttle in my books. So perhaps that will help you increase the bikes that meet your short-list. It would open up brand name mid-drive units that can be a lot more powerful (especially on hills, and especially when carrying a lot of cargo). It would definitely push you far up from $1500 CAD though (probably $3000+ CAD), but it might be a better overall user experience now and would probably a better likelihood of servicing the bike in the future.

If $1500-ish is it, and a throttle is a must, and handling snowy roads is a requirement, then I know of nothing I would recommend over the Beluga.

 

[Twiglaser]

Aye, thanks for all the replies. Can't reply to all of you individually, but here are my thoughts so far.

I understand that the price point I'm looking at wont give me the bestest of quality, but I've seen a lot of EBR reviews of bikes at the 1500CAD price point that claim the quality was pretty good for that price. I'm okay with having less quality than the 3k+ bikes for now. For example, the general quality of the Dolphin or Beluga are acceptable, for now.

The problem I'm currently trying to solve is mainly the commute to work. The 10km ride each day with my manual bike is killing my legs, and my knees in particular. Biking used to be fun for me until I started doing that commute. Now its just a pain. I always get to work sweating, meaning i have to bring cleansing wipes, a towel, deodorant and my work clothes to work. I have to come to work early just so I can change into them in the bathroom. So my "throttle only" requirement mainly comes from that. I want the experience to be just as if I was riding a bus or a car, as far as the sweating and the leg exhaustion is concerned. There's a good chance I'll use a mix of pedal assist and the throttle, but I need to make sure that throttle-only is still good enough.

@maria.owenby I was surprised to learn that hub motors have less range than mid motors. Thanks for letting me know!

@ebikemom I'm learning that the tire thickness also reduces range, so I'll probably have a summer tire and a winter tire set. I'll need to learn how to replace them, but that should be an inexpensive way to increase the range for a good portion of the year. Hopefully, global warming kicks into full gear soon and we wont have any winters at all! Lol...

So for now I'm going to keep browsing with all the new info you guys have provided. I'm thinking that I'm probably going with the Baluga, or one of the RadPower 4inch thickies. But I want to try and find a bike that is similar to the Baluga but with a mid motor at around the 1500cad price point. I'm not in a rush to buy anything so I can wait for newer releases or price drops.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Solom01]

Hi Twiglaser, don't mean to add to the confusion but be very careful about advice you get here. Most of the members have drunk the mid-drive Kool aid and would recommend them regardless of your needs. From what I gather you're looking for transportation that's reliable and easy to use. No one seems to be mentioning that mid- drives require more drive maintenance such as chain replacement because they combine your power with that of the motor. And guess what, if the chain breaks on a mid-drive you're stuck, the bike won't move. A hub drive is independent so if the chain breaks you can still move under battery power. Mid-drives are good for slower, recreational use if you have a lot of steep hills. As for longevity, take a look at postings here in mega expensive bikes, they're not problem free either and with the amount of change in the industry anything you buy will be out of date soon. I'd try to find a geared hub drive that's class 3 with a throttle. You might not use it all the time, but when you're tired it's a God send and not something that people who use their bike to putter around really think about. Just use the heck out of it at first to find any initial issues. 10 km is not very far so lots of bikes will give you that range, just be sure replacement batteries aren't too expensive because mid or hub all lithium batteries have a life span so if you use it constantly at some point you'll want to replace it. Simple economics will tell you that a $5000 bike will have to last you 4 times as long as a 1500 bike to be cost effective, and by that time the 5000 bike will be an antique.

 

[Twiglaser]

@Solom01 I see. Thanks for the heads up! I definitely prefer lower maintenance, and I always want to be able to pedal if I forget to charge my battery (which is going to happen at least once, i just know it). I'm both bummed out and excited that the industry is changing quickly. You make a good point about the simple economics. I dont know if class 3 ebikes are legal in canada, but it depends. Motor needs to be 500w or less, and the top speed needs to stay at or below 32km/hr.

 

[monroe350]

I own a bike with a 350 watt motor and the exact same size battery so I would expect very similar performance. I can get a max of 32 miles using full pedal assist riding thru fairly hilly terrain. My bike does not have a throttle, but can easily hit 20 mph on flatter surfaces. If you were climbing a large hill you will probably need to pedal unless you don't mind going really slow > 10 mph up the hill. It has no trouble with medium and small hills. I have a cheaper $1000 bike that is not as nice as the bike you are looking at and I have been very happy with it. You would probably need to get snow/studded tires for the bike if you wanted to ride it in the snow. My bike does not go very well in the snow. It sounds like a nice bike you are looking at.

 

[rich c]

Hi Twiglaser, don't mean to add to the confusion but be very careful about advice you get here. Most of the members have drunk the mid-drive Kool aid and would recommend them regardless of your needs. From what I gather you're looking for transportation that's reliable and easy to use. No one seems to be mentioning that mid- drives require more drive maintenance such as chain replacement because they combine your power with that of the motor. And guess what, if the chain breaks on a mid-drive you're stuck, the bike won't move. A hub drive is independent so if the chain breaks you can still move under battery power. Mid-drives are good for slower, recreational use if you have a lot of steep hills. As for longevity, take a look at postings here in mega expensive bikes, they're not problem free either and with the amount of change in the industry anything you buy will be out of date soon. I'd try to find a geared hub drive that's class 3 with a throttle. You might not use it all the time, but when you're tired it's a God send and not something that people who use their bike to putter around really think about. Just use the heck out of it at first to find any initial issues. 10 km is not very far so lots of bikes will give you that range, just be sure replacement batteries aren't too expensive because mid or hub all lithium batteries have a life span so if you use it constantly at some point you'll want to replace it. Simple economics will tell you that a $5000 bike will have to last you 4 times as long as a 1500 bike to be cost effective, and by that time the 5000 bike will be an antique.

How is finding the perfect system for your riding style drinking the kool aid? Why does everyone have to ride your preferences, or be caterogized as somehow not being capable of making their own decision. Man, cyclists are a “cliquey” bunch.

 

[harryS]

It's amazing that they can stuff 40 cells in the seat tube to get 14 AH. That would be 500 watt-hours. Forget the advertised range. Wind, hills, and cold weather will knock it down a lot. But now that you say that your goal is to ride 6 miles to work and not sweat, you got plenty of amp-hours in that battery to do that. Max pedal assist. 15 mph. No sweat at all. While you can't go wrong with a European mid drive, this is ebike 101 stuff.

I own folders similar to the Dolphin and the Beluga. Two skinny tire and one big frame fat tire, Basic bikes, not a lot of money, and quite reliable and fun. Qualisports gives you disk brakes, trigger shifter, display ... that's all you need (plus a good bell).

I would prefer the Dolphin, but you will get a better ride with the fat tires on the Beluga, and they will be needed in the Canadian winter.

Go to the Qualisports subforum. Ask the owners.

 

[Solom01]

How is finding the perfect system for your riding style drinking the kool aid? Why does everyone have to ride your preferences, or be caterogized as somehow not being capable of making their own decision. Man, cyclists are a “cliquey” bunch.

Quite the opposite. This person asked for a low maintenance, fast, inexpensive bike. Everyone immediately starts saying you need the flavor of the month mid-drive. Cyclists aren't cliquey, they just realize that different needs require different bikes. Not everyone needs the same solution.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Hi Twiglaser, don't mean to add to the confusion but be very careful about advice you get here. Most of the members have drunk the mid-drive Kool aid and would recommend them regardless of your needs. From what I gather you're looking for transportation that's reliable and easy to use. No one seems to be mentioning that mid- drives require more drive maintenance such as chain replacement because they combine your power with that of the motor. And guess what, if the chain breaks on a mid-drive you're stuck, the bike won't move. A hub drive is independent so if the chain breaks you can still move under battery power. Mid-drives are good for slower, recreational use if you have a lot of steep hills. As for longevity, take a look at postings here in mega expensive bikes, they're not problem free either and with the amount of change in the industry anything you buy will be out of date soon. I'd try to find a geared hub drive that's class 3 with a throttle. You might not use it all the time, but when you're tired it's a God send and not something that people who use their bike to putter around really think about. Just use the heck out of it at first to find any initial issues. 10 km is not very far so lots of bikes will give you that range, just be sure replacement batteries aren't too expensive because mid or hub all lithium batteries have a life span so if you use it constantly at some point you'll want to replace it. Simple economics will tell you that a $5000 bike will have to last you 4 times as long as a 1500 bike to be cost effective, and by that time the 5000 bike will be an antique.

The devil is in the details. Mid-drive bikes do tend to wear out chains faster, but at my shop we don't see any evidence that they *break* chains more often. We've been selling mid-drive e-bikes since 2003 and I'm not sure if we've ever seen a broken chain on a mid-drive. We don't see many broken chains period. And they make hardened e-bike chains anyway now, that wear out more slowly (and are presumably also hardened against breaking too).

Whereas we do see lots of evidence that hub motor bikes are more prone to broken spokes than mid-drive bikes. And that makes sense given the extra wheel weight and torque that the spokes have to account for.

I'm rarely far from a bus route, so if I ever did get a broken chain that would be my solution (all the buses here have bike racks on them). I'd rather a stronger, lighter, more enjoyable bike for thousands of kilometres of cycling, than live with a lesser experience for however many hundreds or thousands of hours of use due to the fear of something that may or may never happen.

A broken spoke would also bring me to a dead stop and putting my bike on a bus, just like a broken chain would. But a broken chain is a cheaper and more universal repair that almost any bike shop can do, whereas a broken spoke requires a bike shop to have a spoke of the right length and gauge in stock (and will typically be a more expensive repair even if the shop does have the spokes).

That said, I agree with all your recommendations in this case! If I had a budget of $1500 CAD, I would do exactly as you suggest. Though I'm not sure you can get a good geared hub motor bike for $1500 CAD (maybe $1500 USD though?). I wouldn't recommend a mid-drive bike for $1500 CAD. The quality mid-drives cost more than that even when on sale (I think the least expensive good one I've ever seen was on sale for $1999.99 CAD, and the regular price was closer to $3K). An inexpensive/no-name mid-drive is probably not more desirable than an inexpensive hub motor bike, so given the price point I agree with your recommendations even if we got there from different routes.

On a powerful mid-drive, you can barely pedal it at all and go like stink. I've pedalled a mid drive for as much as 15K at a time when fighting a cold without breaking a sweat (70+ Nm of torque for the win!). I don't need a throttle if I can just barely turn over the pedals with virtually no effort to engage the motor. It may just mean going up the hills at 20 km/h instead of 30 km/h, for example.

As for the simple economics that you speak of, there may be some truth in that. Thankfully good mid-drive e-bikes start a lot lower than $5K. They start at about $3K regular price, and even less on sale.

 

[ChezCheese:)]

You will find that you won't need a throttle once you have superman legs. And you'll have superman legs the first time out.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Quite the opposite. This person asked for a low maintenance, fast, inexpensive bike. Everyone immediately starts saying you need the flavor of the month mid-drive. Cyclists aren't cliquey, they just realize that different needs require different bikes. Not everyone needs the same solution.

It was the low maintenance that caused me to suggest the customer consider other options. I know there are anecdotes about people putting in big mileage on cheap bikes with minimal maintenance, but George Burns smoke and drank until he was as old as the hills and didn't seem to suffer for it. There are always exceptions. Perhaps I'm biased by my experiences dealing with customers, but we regularly get customers bringing in cheap e-bikes that A) need repair, and B) cannot be repaired because the parts aren't industry standard enough. That's not my definition of low maintenance. Whereas if someone buys an inexpensive brand name mid-drive e-bike, they seem to have fewer maintenance problems and more maintenance solutions.

Trust me, I'm not into the flavour of the month, I'm into what works best. If someone comes out with a hub motor e-bike that's more powerful, or more efficient, or super long range, or crazy light weight, and all without introducing some new downside that I'm not considering, I'll be all over it.

 

[Twiglaser]

@harryS I actually sent them an email about it! Have't received a reply yet, but I'll hit the forums too. Thanks for reminding me.

Even the entry level cost of ebikes is expensive for me so I feel like this is a super important decision, and I'm glad that theres a good community here to talk to!

With that said, despite being a little sassy with the kool aid talk, Solomo1 was still helpful to point out some downsides of mid drives that push me away from it. Also, after doing some browsing, most ebikes in the price range Im interested in are hub motors. You wont find many, if any, ebikes with a mid drive at the price point that I'm looking at. But feel free to share some links to prove me wrong ;D.

@Mass Deduction Hmmm, well now I guess I'm on the mid drive kool aide now, lol. Is the mid drive range really that much better than a hub motor? Would it be better to buy a $1500 hub motor + a $400-500 battery backup that i can carry in my bag (essentially doubles the range), or just buy a $2k mid drive (purely asking for just the range comparison of those two options)?

 

[Mass Deduction]

@Solom01 I see. Thanks for the heads up! I definitely prefer lower maintenance, and I always want to be able to pedal if I forget to charge my battery (which is going to happen at least once, i just know it). I'm both bummed out and excited that the industry is changing quickly. You make a good point about the simple economics. I dont know if class 3 ebikes are legal in canada, but it depends. Motor needs to be 500w or less, and the top speed needs to stay at or below 32km/hr.

The rules change from province to province. ICBC's rules in BC are that a bike cannot be power-assisted faster than 32 km/h without pedalling... but on a class 3 bike without a throttle (or a throttle that cuts out at 32 km/h) you are pedalling if going faster than 32 km/h. So like I say, a grey area.

I'd look into Ontario's rules, I'm not familiar with them. However, this website seems to suggest class-3 is an absolute no-no in Ontario: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/driver/electric-bicycles-faq.shtml It also says the *wheels* must be at least 35 mm wide. That seems wrong to me, one of my e-bikes has 32mm wide *tires* (and therefore even narrower wheels). What a weird rule.

Motor of 500w or less is not a problem. The ideal is to have the lowest wattage/voltage/amperage bike that can do the job, so as to extend the range (or reduce cost/weight by speccing a smaller battery). Same as how a 10w LED lightbulb is more desirable than a 60w incandescent. When Shimano replaced their E6000 motor with the E6100, the torque went up 20% *and* the range went up 25%, on the exact same battery. It was doing more with less. So that's the ideal to aspire to in my opinion, not a motor that has to drain the battery faster to get more oomph.

I think we're in a period of iterative change for the next while in e-bikes. Until we get a hugely disruptive technology like solid state batteries, or capacitors that can hold a charge for 24 hours, or something like that, we'll probably just see e-bike that occasionally get a little stronger, or a little lighter, or a little longer range. The motor companies aren't bringing new motors out every year, they're replacing motor models more like every 3-4 years. Back to the Shimano example, as impressive as it was to have both a 20% power increase and a 25% range increase all in one upgrade, it was three years between those motors. The older motor wasn't now worthless, so it still commands resale value now. Heck, there are shops still selling those new on clearout and people are still buying them so long as the sale price is right. So whatever e-bike you buy there will probably be some resell value if it's still running when you replace it. And I'd argue a $3K bike is more likely to command decent resale than a $1500 bike. Especially if the motor is from a company like Shimano that has a guaranteed parts availability policy. My understanding of Shimano's policy is that they guarantee parts availability for a minimum of 5 years after they discontinue a model. Longer if there's a business case for it. I'm not sure if they've discontinued any of their models yet to even start that 5 year clock.

All that said, and in respect of your $1500 CAD budget, I don't have my finger on the pulse of the inexpensive hub drive market, but I think @Solom01 has some good advice for you there.

 

[Mass Deduction]

@Mass Deduction Hmmm, well now I guess I'm on the mid drive kool aide now, lol. Is the mid drive range really that much better than a hub motor? Would it be better to buy a $1500 hub motor + a $400-500 battery backup that i can carry in my bag (essentially doubles the range), or just buy a $2k mid drive (purely asking for just the range comparison of those two options)?

Unless it's a brand name mid-drive that's regularly $3K plus, I'd go for a hub motor bike. Part of the mid-drive advantage is physics: less rotating mass; less chance of a broken spoke; they're geared relative to the gear the bike is in, rather than not geared, or arbitrarily geared to a 5:1 ratio. But the other part of the mid-drive advantage is that the big brand name companies with decades of history supporting what they sell (parts, service documentation, etc.) all went mid-drive. Companies like Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, etc.

So if the $1500 CAD level is a deal breaker, then I recommend you buy what seems to fit your needs, service it and enjoy it as long as you can, and plan to budget for your second e-bike to be more expensive.

That said, it is the off-season in Ontario. If you phone around you *might* get lucky and find a brand name mid-drive with a brand name motor at a screaming deal. Last winter our shop sold a few old-stock Raleigh e-bikes with Shimano motors for $2400, that were regularly $3400. These things, though rare, can happen (though you probably won't have much choice when it comes to size or colour!). I'm in BC so I'm way too far away to help you, but you can let your fingers do the walking (as they used to say).

 

[Twiglaser]

Unless it's a brand name mid-drive that's regularly $3K plus, I'd go for a hub motor bike. Part of the mid-drive advantage is physics: less rotating mass; less chance of a broken spoke; they're geared relative to the gear the bike is in, rather than not geared, or arbitrarily geared to a 5:1 ratio. But the other part of the mid-drive advantage is that the big brand name companies with decades of history supporting what they sell (parts, service documentation, etc.) all went mid-drive. Companies like Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, etc.

So if the $1500 CAD level is a deal breaker, then I recommend you buy what seems to fit your needs, service it and enjoy it as long as you can, and plan to budget for your second e-bike to be more expensive.

That said, it is the off-season in Ontario. If you phone around you *might* get lucky and find a brand name mid-drive with a brand name motor at a screaming deal. Last winter our shop sold a few old-stock Raleigh e-bikes with Shimano motors for $2400, that were regularly $3400. These things, though rare, can happen (though you probably won't have much choice when it comes to size or colour!). I'm in BC so I'm way too far away to help you, but you can let your fingers do the walking (as they used to say).

Honestly, setting that 1500CAD limit was more about me trying to be responsible and not pay too much money for things I don't need. I can easily save enough money for a 3k bike, doesn't mean that I should do that. Anyway, I believe that in the end I will just end up taking my chances with the Baluga. However, if I can bother you with another question, what are your thoughts on the RadPower bikes? Specifically, the RadMini (and the upgraded step through) or the RadRunner? A little more pricey than qualisports, but is it worth the extra money?

 

[Feliz]

Things must have changed, when I first got into eBikes I struggled to find a bike in Canada under $2,000. I found one, I bought one, I got what I paid for and that Voltbike Yukon is thankfully long gone. Any $1500 CAN bike is going to be junk, that's close to $1,000 US. This whole thread is funny actually, a good battery that would ensure a ton of range would cost nearly $1500 CAN.

Mid drives got their kick start with mountain bikes, they just work better. I've never seen a rear hub drive on a serious mountain bike. Conversely, rear hub drives work better for commuting, more reliable, more cost effective, and more efficient. As Mass Deduction pointed out, mid drive use for street use is being driven by marketing.