Looking for a commuter/trekker hybrid

[mobits]

Hello everyone!

I’ve been immersing myself into the world of ebikes to learn everything I can in order to make an informed purchase. I’ve considered purpose-built ebikes, conversion kits, drive types, legality, use-cases, the works! I’ve come across a few that have interested me, and one in particular that stands out - that being the Haibike Trekking Xduro/Sduro x.0 (2017 or later models)

However, I want to keep my mind open and make sure I’m taking all of the appropriate considerations - I’ve got a pretty unique use-case, so let me get that out of the way.

I’m a big and tall type guy, 6’2” and change, at about 280 pounds. I’ve currently got a Specialized Pro Hardrock circa 2004 or so, which I’ve been commuting about 5 miles round trip with for the last 6 months. With an ebike, I’d bike all the way to work, a round trip of about 20 miles daily. I’m 35 and not in terrible shape, but could stand to lose some weight. I’m looking for a bike that I could use as a commuter, but also take on longer and even overnight trips on weekends (So probably another 50 lb of gear if I don’t pack light). I’d like to be able to use it on pavement, dirt, gravel, trails, etc. I’m not going to be doing any extreme mountain biking with it, but I’d like to get off the beaten path now and again.

Finally, while I currently reside in the greater Seattle, WA, USA area, I’ve got a pending change in employment that will see me living in any number of different countries abroad. With that in mind, I’m looking to ensure that whatever I get is going to be legal for the vast majority of countries.

After doing some homework on ebikes, I arrived at the following conclusions:

• I’m interested in Pedal assist systems, not throttles (which can affect legality in some cases)
• As far as Pedal assist goes, I’d like something with a torque sensor
• I’d want a mid-drive - with the gearing it means I can get away with a less powerful motor that has a greater range of capability, but is also most likely to include the above points
• Can carry myself and a reasonable amount of gear without making a ton of modifications to the frame.
• Can be ridden as a normal bike, without battery if needed - hopefully whichever drive is used does not create additional pedal friction to overcome (aside from the increased weight)
• I’d enjoy the quality of life enhancements, such as powered lights, USB charging for peripherals, water bottle cages, racks or mounts for other add-ons, etc.

I know that’s a lot to digest with some pretty substantial restrictions - I’ve found a few bikes that seem to check most if not all of the boxes and seem to be designed for what I’m looking for.

Again, the Haibike X/Sduro Trekking series seems to top the list, along with the Focus Aventura Impulse 2.0, Kalkhoff Agattu/Sahel series as strong contenders. I had seen some suggestions for a Stormer 1 / 2, but these appear to all be hub drives. I am leaning towards the Xduro (Bosch).

I haven’t done any test rides yet, but plan to in the near future.

Some questions I have:

Given my use-case and restrictions, are there any other ebikes that might be a good fit for me?

Should I really be looking more at the Kalkhoff and Focus offerings? Their bikes seem just as capable as the Haibike and also seem to hit many of my points, in some ways they seem better! (battery locking, cage mounts, self-powered lights). I haven’t done as much research into these, but they seem like a great fit as well and may have higher availability. What are other differences? (internally geared, maintenance considerations, etc.)

The difference between the Haibike Sduro/Xduro is the Yamaha/Bosch motor - from what I’ve read, it seems like the Bosch operates more like what I am looking for, but in some cases is also a bit more powerful than what may be legal in some places. What would be the drawback of the Sduro?

Haibike has a mess of current Trekking models, but don’t have a lot of clear ways to compare them or see what the real difference between them are. I’ve seen others making this same complaint of Haibike, and while the Trekking Xduro 5.0 from 2017 looks great to me, there is a mess of options for 2018 leaves me a bit clueless. Is anyone familiar with the differences between many of these models?

As I understand it, the “S” in the model name denotes “Speed”, meaning the difference between the assist disengaging at 28mph vs 20mph. Can the controller software be adjusted or modified in any way to change the speed at which the assist disengages? Is this adjustable in any other way? (ie. telling the controller that I am using a different tire size)

There is still some availability for the 2017 Trekking bikes in the 60 and 64 sizes - are these too big for a guy my size? (6'2", seems recommended sizes for my height would be 53-57 or so)


I'm not in a hurry to purchase if I can wait for a good price point, but I wouldn't hestitate to get something that I think would fit the bill. I'd say $3k-$4k is my upper range as far as cost limitations.

Thanks for taking the time to read my message and thanks for any assistance you can provide! I’m really excited to join the ebike community and experience the revolution that I’ve been reading so much about!

 

[Rakku]

Its simple.
Haibike has only ONE trekking bike.

Every model has its variants, starting mostly from 4.0 up to 11.0 in some cases.

Those numbers represent the level of components and extras.

4.0 is the most basic level, and the higher you get, the better components you have on the bike.

Pretty easy actually.

 

[Robie]

If you can test ride a Hai- bike Urban Plus, I liked it. Lots of bells and whistles. You can see the brake light two blocks away !!and the horn has a electric actuator.

 

[Nova Haibike]

Its simple.
Haibike has only ONE trekking bike.

Not quite. The Trekking 9.5 differs from all the other models in that it has 27.5" wheels/tires. For carrying 280 lbs. plus 50 lbs. of gear, that would be the model I would choose (but it is a bit over $4K).

I have the 2016 Trekking RC, which I bought online from RandomBikeParts. I have had it a less than three months; now at about 750 miles. I weigh 230 lbs (I started at 240). It has been basically flawless. They still have the 60 cm available for $1549.97, which is a great deal for a bike with Shimano XT gears and brakes. It is essentially the same bike as the $3K 2018 Trekking 6.0; the differences being the 2016 has XT shifters (vs. SLX), and Schwalbe Energizer Plus Tour tires (vs. Michelin Protec Cross). The 2018 has the bigger 500wH battery....but for the nearly $1.5K savings on the 2016 you could buy a spare battery!

 

[Rakku]

Well, for my father for example the LCD display was pretty important, he did not like the looks of the old LED one.

And sure, there may be some differences between the numbers of the bikes, but still its only one base model which has only a few parts changed here and there.

Mostly, the higher you go, the "better/high end" the components get.

 

[mobits]

Thanks for the replies. I couldn't figure out the numbers corresponding with the Trekking series, so your explanation helps clear that up Rakku (even if there are outliers). Seems like another benefit of the Bosch/Yamahas is that the display can be swapped out and mounted off center. Doesn't seem possible for the Kalkhoffs to do that - at least if those were off-center I could put a phone mount right in the middle and use that for navigation or other functions.

Robie, I think there's a Bike shop a bit North of me that carries some Haibikes, I can probably pop by for a visit sometime next week to try it out, there's one a bit closer with the Kalkhoff's that I plan checking out this week. The Urban looks pretty solid, though the top speed probably means that it won't be legal in many of the places I will end up wanting to use it. Not sure how particular law enforcement is over these sorts of things. On the plus side, it looks like it could easily handle the weight requirements.

That's some good info Nova, that would probably be a good one to keep my eye on if they have any sales on them in September or August, or early next year when they try to get rid of the older models. How do you like the Yamaha? Have you had a chance to compare it with a Bosch? Seems like the Yamaha would be better internationally as it's rated at only 250w (and maybe less proprietary than Bosch?)
Aside from the wheels, is there any other reason you make the recommendation for the 9.5 based on the my weight requirements?
Good point with the difference in price and battery, I have been eyeing something with a bit more range but it may also be possible to simply purchase with an upgraded battery from some resellers.
Didn't see much in the way of bottle cage mounts on the Trekking series either, though presume those are easy to add-second hand or just throw a camelback in somewhere.

 

[irishnutter]

On the Haibike nomenclature, be aware that the Sduro/Xduro as well as the numbering changed between 2017 and 2018 so you really have to look at the complete specs of the bikes to compare. Also while the primary Sduro/Xduro difference for years prior to 2018 was Yamaha/Bosch, other components are changed between them as well (e.g., compare the complete specs of 2017 Sduro Trekking 4.0 vs Xduro Trekking 4.0).

Not sure I followed the advantages you thought Kalkhoff and Focus have over Haibike Trekking models (other than bosses). I recently picked up a 2017 Xduro Trekking 4.0 after considering dozens of bikes and I couldn't find anything comparable to the price I ended up getting. Great frame, 27.5 rims with Super Moto X tires, great Lupine SL headlight/AXA taillight, SKS fenders, heavy duty rack, thru-axles, Bosch CX motor, front air suspension, etc. I think the Sduro Trekking is an equally good value at an even lower price point. I also really liked the Sduro HardSeven 6.0 bike but would have needed to then add all of the trekking options.

There are a lot of great bikes out there but it's really hard to beat the value of the 2017 Haibikes IMHO. And yes, the sizings/geometry of Haibike is odd. Be careful you don't buy a bike that is too big for you. Check out the geometry specs in detail to see what would be the best fit for you.

 

[Nova Haibike]

I like the Yamaha system quite a bit, but I have not ridden a Bosch bike to compare the two. The Bosch brand is definitely more prevalent; outside of Haibike and Giant you'd be hard pressed to find Yamaha powered e-bikes. The 9.5's wheels is the only reason I would recommend it above the others. If I was going to ride on dirt or gravel, I would prefer the strength, stability, and comfort of wider rims and tires. Plus the bike also has boost spacing (at least in the rear) with thru-axles; again, stronger wheels.

 

[mobits]

Hey irishnutter, I took a closer look at this years' models and you're correct. In fact, the 2018 lineup doesn't even seem to keep the previous Sduro = Yamaha, Xduro = Bosch convention.

They're weren't a ton of advantages that the Kalkhoff's had, there were a few QoL improvements that were pretty novel in Courts review videos though (independently powered lights that are not reliant on the battery, cages, etc.). The bigger draw for me is that it seems they are going to be more to Euro spec meaning it would be less of a problem to use them in places where there are more restrictions than the States have. I'll making a visit to a shop near me tomorrow, I will have to see what I could get away with as far as dimensions go, or set my sights on a 2018 model and wait.

I really still am leaning towards the Haibikes. The issue with the US produced version of them are that some of them have the 350w rated motor, and many provide assist past 20mph. Is it possible to either modify the controller for the Yahama/Bosch models to reduce or reinstate that cap? Or, if the speed is determined with the magnetic knob on the spoke, would adding another one evenly-spaced "fool" the controller into deactivating assist at 14mph rather than 28mph? Is anyone but the most dedicated LEO going to really care about this? I'd rather not have to go through the process of registering, licensing, subjected to restrictions, etc. if I end up living someplace that has tighter regulations than the US does.

Hmm, I'll have to consider that Nova. If I had to estimate, I would guess 80% or more of my biking time would be spent on paved surfaces. I would think that wheels are something that are easily swapped out to something more appropriate if needed, wouldn't that also be possible here?

 

[Nova Haibike]

There are a few companies that make plug-and-play dongles which would remove the speed restriction on any of the major motor brands. Merely moving the speed sensing magnet results in incorrect speed and distance reporting, and in some cases an error/shutdown of the system.

In theory you could swap wheels, but the 700C trekking frames and forks do not have clearance for significantly wider tires.

 

[irishnutter]

Mobits, I didn't realize you were looking for lights with independent batteries - normally Court (and I think most people) prefer the lights be run off the main battery.

There are certainly 250w motors out there but I'm not aware of any in the States that would cap the assist to the class 1 Euro standard of 25kph/15mph. Any of the dongles I've seen remove or increase the cap. I'm sure there is some way to get a Euro controller installed and then use a dongle to increase the assistance while in the States.

 

[mobits]

Novo & irish, I've seen the dongles and that crossed my mind as one way to do it. An additional spoke magnet would definitely throw off reporting of speed and distance, I guess the idea was that having two that are evenly spaced would effectively halve the cap on pedal assistance, bringing a 28mph bike down to 14mph before cutoff, well within Euro limits. Of course, there's still that 350w motor... The propensity for errors doing this might be similar to the errors that some users have also reported with the dongles that you mention, but it's a good point.

I'm definitely not married to either way of powering the lights, and to be fair, having a separate apparatus to power it adds another point of failure. The main draw that the Kalkhoffs have going for it is the local availability of Euro-spec versions that wouldn't have nearly as many issues with international use.

I still have not found a recent model Haibike sold in the US with Euro-spec motor, which means I get a US version and try to govern it, while the motor will still be out of spec for some countries OR pay substantially more to get a Euro version shipped stateside, and then get an unlock for it. The latter is the safest option, but would definitely want to wait for a sale so it's a bit more affordable. Finally, I could just consider a different ebike altogether.

My understanding is that the motors in EU and USA are virtually the same, the only difference is the controller. But I don't know how accurate that information it is, or how possible it would be to swap out one for the other. If it was easy, I would imagine the unlock dongles not being nearly as necessary.

 

[irishnutter]

Like I said, I doubt you'll find any bike sold in the US that is limited to 15mph (since our class 1 spec is 20mph). I think the odds are very low that if you took your bike to Europe (where that exact model was also sold in Europe), that it would be easily detected as a bike from the States, running at a higher pedal assist. For example, I don't think the Bosch CX motor has a label that says 250w or 350w. Maybe the members from Europe could chime in with some advice.

 

[Nova Haibike]

One other thing to keep in mind if you're going to be moving around a lot: you're going to need to find a way to ship the battery, because it is considered a hazardous material.

 

[mobits]

irish, as of July 1, 2018, ebikes sold in my state will be required to have this information (top assisted speed, class, motor wattage, etc.) on a permanent label somewhere highly visible on the bike. Something for me to keep in mind, but I will probably be shopping online anyway.

I'd agree with you on the odds of this coming up, especially if it's a bike that has a Euro model (speaking of, I don't see any Euro Trekking 9.5 models in my research, is this US only?). I do want to obey the spirit of the law without incurring massive hassle or penalties unto myself. It's likely that if I rode responsibility it would never come up. But it may still be better to obey the letter of the law just in case it does. Would welcome any advice from EU folks. In the chance that I end up over there - I wouldn't mind paying for having the US motor swapped out for an EU-spec one if it's a sensible tradeoff for the riding freedom and other headaches it avoids.

Thanks Nova, that's crossed my mind but it's a bridge that I may end up having to cross when I come to it. I don't know where I'll end up (the job will dictate it to an extent) and I know that while they will also provide transportation for personal and household effects, that there are restrictions on "hazardous materials" that may complicate things depending on where and how they are sent. Ultimately, I suspect that almost any ebike I use will have batteries subject to this sort of restriction, so it's an unavoidable hurdle in any event.

 

[irishnutter]

Mobits, is that going to be the law in Cali? Sounds like you'll be riding around with a billboard hung off the bike

 

[mobits]

lol, I'm in Washington state at the moment, sounds like it could be the case though! Looks like Cali already did something similar on Jan 1st of 2017.

 

[Nova Haibike]

I don't see any Euro Trekking 9.5 models in my research, is this US only?).

Europe has the even nicer Trekking 9.0, which has the Bosch PowerTube and Modular Rail System for piggybacking an extra battery or installing accessories. Not sure why it is not listed on the Haibike USA site. But Propel in NYC has it, as does San Diego Fly Rides.

 

[Bicyclista]

Hello everyone!
The difference between the Haibike Sduro/Xduro is the Yamaha/Bosch motor - from what I’ve read, it seems like the Bosch operates more like what I am looking for, but in some cases is also a bit more powerful than what may be legal in some places. What would be the drawback of the Sduro?

Here's the answer I gave to a similar question in another thread (i.e. Bosch vs. Yamaha motors): Price is a differentiator, but also the Yamaha and Bosch systems each offer a different kind of power band. If you are a high-cadence (90 RPM+) rider, go with Bosch. If you are a low-cadence (60 - 90 RPM) rider, as I am, go with Yamaha. The Bosch system continues to support your pedaling at high cadence, whereas the Yamaha tends to peter out beyond 100 RPM. But the Yamaha system provides very high torque at low speeds, enabling quick starts from a stop.

 

[Nova Haibike]

I very rarely see anyone pedaling at 100+ rpm. It may be useful in some racing situations, but otherwise it is not an efficient way to ride. I don't see how it would be easier on the knees either. Granted, mashing high gears at a low cadence (less than 60 rpm) is bad, but that doesn't mean faster than 100 rpm is better. Pedal too fast and your stroke just becomes erratic, and you bounce all over the saddle.