Keeping it Legal for the Common Good, Staying Within the Legal Classes

As someone who bike commuted on MUPs for well over a decade before ebikes were a thing:

-Speed has always been an issue. Roadies do sometimes ride very fast on the MUPs and it does cause issues with other user groups. I know management of my local trail is known to contact local shops and politely ask them to route their shop rides somewhere other than the trail. That said, I think the roadie problem is overstated by ebike advocates (mainly because they feel it justifies whatever speed they feel they should be allowed to ride at). In my 12 years of daily commuting on the local MUP, most of my near misses were not speeding roadies, but various flavors of inattentive user. Tour de France wannabes are a pretty small percentage of users IME.

-EBikes definitely have the potential to make that much worse. Cruising at rocket speeds on a road bike does take a lot of riding, and anyone doing it is at least a very experienced rider. Some ebikes will just give an idiot newbie the ability to go similar (or even faster) speeds right out the door, with zero riding experience and no idea what riding the trails and sharing it with other user groups is like. Hard not to see that as a potential problem, especially when we are talking about the wink-wink-nudge-nudge ebikes that ignore the rules in place and can throttle to 30+mph. Thinking that people will buy these and then ride respectfully on the local trails is... lets say, a view untainted by contact with literally any large group of humans. If a bike is sold with an "off-road only mode" that unlocks non-legal speeds, its safe to assume that 99% of the purchasers of that bike will immediately run it in that mode all the time.

-The current regime is pretty much "as long as you aren't being a huge jackass and calling attention to yourself you can probably ride whatever you want". Non-compliant bikes and conversion kits are easy to source. Want an "ebike" with thousands of watts of power and a throttle that lets you hit 40+mph? Just a matter of picking your poison and pulling out the credit card. The issue going forward is going to be that it just doesn't take much to reverse that. I don't think ebike advocates realize how tenuous that regime is. A small handful of high profile accidents and that laissez faire attitude could go out the window, and it when it does it won't come back. It would just take something that makes a good story (like, dude on a DIY going 35 on the local trail hits a kid or something). Ebikes are not a big enough user group that if politicians saw benefit to raising their profile on a crackdown we could really do anything about it.
 
For some inexplicable reason people spaced out in a different world while playing with their phone will stop right in the middle of an area such as where a path splits or a sidewalk corner. They cannot just step to one side. And they will butt have plugs in their ears.
1659993882387.jpeg
 
PedalUma said:
For some inexplicable reason people spaced out in a different world while playing with their phone will stop right in the middle of an area such as where a path splits or a sidewalk corner. They cannot just step to one side. And they will butt have plugs in their ears.
View attachment 131657
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Just curious. Did you get the words in your last sentence out of order and meant to say "And they will have butt plugs in their ears."
 
Gordon71 said:
Just curious. Did you get the words in your last sentence out of order and meant to say "And they will have butt plugs in their ears."
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This is one of those that the pedals are an after thought. You would think that Trump's ears would get clogged.
MEDIA=youtube]xIQmEJDNg7A[/MEDIA]
 
PedalUma said:
This is one of those that the pedals are an after thought. You would think that Trump's ears would get clogged.
MEDIA=youtube]xIQmEJDNg7A[/MEDIA]
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jabberwocky said:
As someone who bike commuted on MUPs for well over a decade before ebikes were a thing:

-Speed has always been an issue. Roadies do sometimes ride very fast on the MUPs and it does cause issues with other user groups. I know management of my local trail is known to contact local shops and politely ask them to route their shop rides somewhere other than the trail. That said, I think the roadie problem is overstated by ebike advocates (mainly because they feel it justifies whatever speed they feel they should be allowed to ride at). In my 12 years of daily commuting on the local MUP, most of my near misses were not speeding roadies, but various flavors of inattentive user. Tour de France wannabes are a pretty small percentage of users IME.

-EBikes definitely have the potential to make that much worse. Cruising at rocket speeds on a road bike does take a lot of riding, and anyone doing it is at least a very experienced rider. Some ebikes will just give an idiot newbie the ability to go similar (or even faster) speeds right out the door, with zero riding experience and no idea what riding the trails and sharing it with other user groups is like. Hard not to see that as a potential problem, especially when we are talking about the wink-wink-nudge-nudge ebikes that ignore the rules in place and can throttle to 30+mph. Thinking that people will buy these and then ride respectfully on the local trails is... lets say, a view untainted by contact with literally any large group of humans. If a bike is sold with an "off-road only mode" that unlocks non-legal speeds, its safe to assume that 99% of the purchasers of that bike will immediately run it in that mode all the time.

-The current regime is pretty much "as long as you aren't being a huge jackass and calling attention to yourself you can probably ride whatever you want". Non-compliant bikes and conversion kits are easy to source. Want an "ebike" with thousands of watts of power and a throttle that lets you hit 40+mph? Just a matter of picking your poison and pulling out the credit card. The issue going forward is going to be that it just doesn't take much to reverse that. I don't think ebike advocates realize how tenuous that regime is. A small handful of high profile accidents and that laissez faire attitude could go out the window, and it when it does it won't come back. It would just take something that makes a good story (like, dude on a DIY going 35 on the local trail hits a kid or something). Ebikes are not a big enough user group that if politicians saw benefit to raising their profile on a crackdown we could really do anything about it.
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Very well said. I also get concerned about inexperienced riders riding at pro rider speeds. The same thing happens in motorcycles. Get your license on a 250cc bike in the morning and you can be on a super bike in the afternoon.

I also think that people tend to forget that a class 1 or class 3 bike is not speed limited. If you have the fitness, you can ride as fast as a roadie, and faster uphill. Your assistance is the only thing that ends at 20 or 28 mph.

Some pedal assist bikes are fairly light and quite capable. The biggest issue with weight concerns rotational weight, so there is not a huge penalty there.
 
Djangodog said:
rotational weight
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If the weight is placed where a Nautical Engineer would put it on a sailboat it does not matter much. Starts and stops are longer but the momentum gives some speed stability so it is not as twitchy feeling. I am doing the internal routing on one now and am about to solder. It will have one skinny wire/housing on the handlebar. That is it. No zip ties. No connectors. 90+% of people will not know it is electric. Because of gearing it will be class 1. Heavier tires do add to rotational weigh but they also serve as heavier gyroscopes and flywheels, adding to stability.
 
Djangodog said:
Very well said. I also get concerned about inexperienced riders riding at pro rider speeds. The same thing happens in motorcycles. Get your license on a 250cc bike in the morning and you can be on a super bike in the afternoon.

I also think that people tend to forget that a class 1 or class 3 bike is not speed limited. If you have the fitness, you can ride as fast as a roadie, and faster uphill. Your assistance is the only thing that ends at 20 or 28 mph.

Some pedal assist bikes are fairly light and quite capable. The biggest issue with weight concerns rotational weight, so there is not a huge penalty there.
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Pretty conscious of the bike classes, and just how ridiculous they are. That's exactly what I was referencing when mentioning illogical rules put in place by a bunch of knee jerk reactions.

Politicians reacting to an unfortunate accident would be no better. Just another knee jerk reaction....

I could care less if I'm passed by some (clown suit pro) roadie feeling his oats. I ride bikes that can easily handle my rather largish size in the biggest of hills. So generally speaking, they're right off the charts when it comes to "rules", even though they would be difficult to pick out from a group of production bikes. I know I could easily dust his pants in a matter of seconds, but my bikes rarely see anything over 15mph under power. What matters more to me is the amount of whining they do regarding e-bikes, ANY e-bikes, regardless of "class".
 
Djangodog said:
I also think that people tend to forget that a class 1 or class 3 bike is not speed limited. If you have the fitness, you can ride as fast as a roadie, and faster uphill. Your assistance is the only thing that ends at 20 or 28 mph.
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True, but on the other hand if you are enough of a beast to pedal an 75lb bike on the flats unassisted at 28mph I don't understand why you'd buy an e-bike in the first place...

And I also guarantee you that all other things being equal, rotational weight or not, you'll pedal a 25lb bike faster both at maximum and average speed than a 40lb bike.
 
Mr. Coffee said:
True, but on the other hand if you are enough of a beast to pedal an 75lb bike on the flats unassisted at 28mph I don't understand why you'd buy an e-bike in the first place...

And I also guarantee you that all other things being equal, rotational weight or not, you'll pedal a 25lb bike faster both at maximum and average speed than a 40lb bike.
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Most fit cyclists are not maintaining 28 mph on the flats, let alone going up hill at that speed. Typically, a class 3 ebike will be faster overall than a road bike and is most often being ridden by someone with lesser bike handling skills and experience. Even the European ebikes that are limited to 15.5 mph will blow by a fit cyclist on any large hill and can go as fast as they dare on a decent.

More importantly, I think that the laws are the very thing that allows us to be treated as bicycles, (benefits include bike lanes, trails, paths, no registration, no insurance, no state inspection, no requirement of a horn, lights, turn signals, etc…).

We can gripe about the restrictions, but those very restrictions provide a lot of our freedom. My biggest concern is that those that choose to ride bikes that exceed the legal limits, or ride where their class of bike should not, will ruin it for the rest of us.
 
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Djangodog said:
Most fit cyclists are not maintaining 28 mph on the flats, let alone going up hill at that speed. Typically, a class 3 ebike will be faster overall than a road bike and is most often being ridden by someone with lesser bike handling skills and experience. Even the European ebikes that are limited to 15.5 mph will blow by a fit cyclist on any large hill and can go as fast as they dare on a decent.

More importantly, I think that the laws are the very thing that allows us to be treated as bicycles, (benefits include bike lanes, trails, paths, no registration, no insurance, no state inspection, no requirement of a horn, lights, turn signals, etc…).

We can gripe about the restrictions, but those very restrictions provide a lot of our freedom. My biggest concern is that those that choose to ride bikes that exceed the legal limits, or ride where their class of bike should not, will ruin it for the rest of us.
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On the bold, I agree. A solid set of well thought out laws based on solid logic would likely do us all some good. The stuff we have available right now has been proven silly stupid.

"My biggest concern is that those that choose to ride bikes that exceed the legal limits, or ride where their class of bike should not, will ruin it for the rest of us."
This comes under the heading of riding like a jack a$$ for me. They deserve anything that happens to them. Otherwise, nobody is ever even thinking about this issue. The fact my bikes often "exceed legal limits", as long as they are driven in a sane manner, is none of your business.

Are you one of those that like to alienate somebody riding with a throttle too? You can go stuff that idea as well. Those throttles allow a lot of people that wouldn't/couldn't ride otherwise a lot of the joy of riding a bike. You want them to stop out of your fear they are going to ruin it for the rest of us (or more likely it sounds like, for you)? Have you considered the throttles might provide a new level of confidence to those that might be on the fence otherwise - or worse, sitting on a couch? You wanna play the mind game they are hurting you as a class1 rider? That's your call, but it seems pretty selfish from where I'm sitting.

That's one of my issues. Those promoting their own self interests....
 
Unfortunately, there will always be those who choose to break the law. Likewise, there will always be those who figure a way to defeat manufacturer product limitations. To make things worse, there will always be manufacturers who design & market illegal equipment since there will always be those who buy them.

My hope is that these individuals remain in the minority and do not have a major impact on the sport as a whole.

Another problem I see more and more frequently is motorbikes and ATV's illegally using trails & multi use paths. It seems the presence of ebikes has given these folks an excuse to break the law. One adult ATV rider I confronted simply said "Hey, if you can ride a motorized vehicle here, why can't I?" Unfortunately, the uneducated public tends to include ebikes in the ATV / motorbike category.

IMO, it's important that all of us become "Ebike Ambassadors" to dispel this myth . In addition to being extra courteous to others, I take every opportunity to explain what an ebike can and can't do. On several occasions, I've even let people I meet on the trail try my bike. A little good will goes a long way.
 
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Djangodog said:
We can gripe about the restrictions, but those very restrictions provide a lot of our freedom. My biggest concern is that those that choose to ride bikes that exceed the legal limits, or ride where their class of bike should not, will ruin it for the rest of us.
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Yeah, at the end of the day this sums up my concerns as well. I mean, sure, the laws and restrictions can seem arbitrary. But pretty much every law and regulation with a hard line is going to be somewhat arbitrary, and not catch edge cases well. At the end of the day, you do have to draw the line somewhere. The fact that ebikes do have a hard line separating them from motorcycles and mopeds is what has allowed the very rapid progress expanding access over the last decade, especially when it comes to non-motorized infrastructure like bike trails, MUPs and bike lanes. If that access is abused by people riding non-legal bikes and causing problems, it could be rolled back, and could cause issues making further progress.
 
AHicks said:
On the bold, I agree. A solid set of well thought out laws based on solid logic would likely do us all some good. The stuff we have available right now has been proven silly stupid.

"My biggest concern is that those that choose to ride bikes that exceed the legal limits, or ride where their class of bike should not, will ruin it for the rest of us."
This comes under the heading of riding like a jack a$$ for me. They deserve anything that happens to them. Otherwise, nobody is ever even thinking about this issue. The fact my bikes often "exceed legal limits", as long as they are driven in a sane manner, is none of your business.

Are you one of those that like to alienate somebody riding with a throttle too? You can go stuff that idea as well. Those throttles allow a lot of people that wouldn't/couldn't ride otherwise a lot of the joy of riding a bike. You want them to stop out of your fear they are going to ruin it for the rest of us (or more likely it sounds like, for you)? Have you considered the throttles might provide a new level of confidence to those that might be on the fence otherwise - or worse, sitting on a couch? You wanna play the mind game they are hurting you as a class1 rider? That's your call, but it seems pretty selfish from where I'm sitting.

That's one of my issues. Those promoting their own self interests....
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I‘m not sure how or why you changed the subject to throttles. There is already a thread for that. I couldn’t care less about a throttle either way.

My concern is that people that choose to disregard the laws can hurt everyone. People that think that they are above the law by riding bikes that “exceed legal limits” are everyone’s business. The reason for this thread is that I see a lot on de-restricted and home built bikes on this forum. People that think that they are too good to follow the regulations can cause the regulators to further restrict us, require registration and inspection, or even end eBikes being classified as bicycles at all, so yeah, anyone riding an illegal bike is “riding like a jacka$$”, and that is everyone’s business.

I think that people that think that they can do whatever they want are the ones that are selfish and promoting their own self interests.
 
6zfshdb said:
Another problem I see more and more frequently is motorbikes and ATV's illegally using trails & multi use paths. It seems the presence of ebikes has given these folks an excuse to break the law. One adult ATV rider I confronted simply said "Hey, if you can ride a motorized vehicle here, why can't I?" Unfortunately, the uneducated public tends to include ebikes in the ATV / motorbike category.
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Can you quote any study to back this up?
 
Djangodog said:
I‘m not sure how or why you changed the subject to throttles. There is already a thread for that. I couldn’t care less about a throttle either way.

My concern is that people that choose to disregard the laws can hurt everyone. People that think that they are above the law by riding bikes that “exceed legal limits” are everyone’s business. The reason for this thread is that I see a lot on de-restricted and home built bikes on this forum. People that think that they are too good to follow the regulations can cause the regulators to further restrict us, require registration and inspection, or even end eBikes being classified as bicycles at all, so yeah, anyone riding an illegal bike is “riding like a jacka$$”, and that is everyone’s business.

I think that people that think that they can do whatever they want are the ones that are selfish and promoting their own self interests.
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We'll need to agree to disagree on the point, shall we? Let's move on.
 
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