The Future of eBikes: How Fast is Too Fast?

[Jeremy McCreary]

World record for most failed IQ tests documented in a single video:

 

[mschwett]

So, for now, bike riders have absolute immunity? I guess I'd be immune too if I knocked someone in the head with a hammer? There is no license or identification required to carry a hammer.

If there is a speed limit and you break it, the bike didn't break the speed limit, you did. Who cares if the bike can go 30 mph, or even 199 mph? If the speed limit is 15 it's the operator's responsibility to keep it at 15 or below.

TT

fair point! but I think there’s a big difference between the way crimes like assault, fraud, etc are policed and prosecuted - which costs a huge amount of money and relies on incarceration as the primary punishment - and vehicular offenses like speeding, which pay for their policing through registration fees, use taxes, and fines, and use the suspension of the ability to drive as their primary punishment.

most people don’t bludgeon others with hammers because a) it’s wrong, b) it takes a lot of indifference to inflict pain on others, and c) there’s a very strong chance you’ll be caught and sent to jail, ruining your life as a convicted felon. on the flip side, most people DO speed in their cars, and often, because a) they don’t think it‘s wrong, or at least won’t hurt anybody, b) they can usually get away with it, and the only real risks are all related to the registration, licensing, and insurance systems that regulate the use of cars. so, again, how will extensive use restrictions on personal electric vehicles be policed?

 

[mschwett]

I personally think the class definitions are pretty good in the US. I have a class 1 emtb and a class 3 egravel and think the cutoffs make sense for the use to which I put them. If anything they are on the generous side; 20mph is pretty fast on trails, and 28mph is actually bordering on dangerously fast on anything but roads IMO. I do like the assist over 20mph though especially on pavement and gravel roads.

I don't think the speed definitions are likely to change anytime soon in the US. The thing to watch is how various government agencies, jurisdictions, etc handle the non-compliant bikes in the coming years. I personally think we will see more action against retailers and manufacturers than individual users, but in some areas even enforcement at the rider level is already happening.

I generally agree, I just think we need a “class zero” which is so innocuous as to be permitted absolutely anywhere that bicycles are, by riders of any age, without question. vehicle weight < 40lb, no assist over 15 mph, peak power < 300w, instantaneous power < 2x human power at that moment in time. those are what kids should be allowed to ride. there really also ought to be a “class 1 mode” for class 3 bikes which would make them legal where class 1 is, I realize this also falls into the very hard to enforce category, but 28mph is way too fast for most urban shared paths, but not too fast for many bikes lines and certainly vehicle lanes.

if a city wants to ban everything but class zero on MUPs and bike lanes etc, that’s their choice, but I would hope most cities or states would continue to allow the full range on paved surfaces, and 0 and 1 on trails.

 

[BEC111]

As with so many issues aroused by ignorance and fear mongering plus the traditional dislike of teens (“What’s the Matter With Kids Today”, Bye Bye Birdie) the issues around e-bikes seem to converge around human behavior. Immaturity by teens and kids. Ignorance or general thuggery by adults. “If it bleeds it ledes” Journalism. Politicians ignorant or venal enough to exploit the situation for votes and power push unworkable laws that can and will be exploited indiscriminately to detain and confiscate the bikes of locally disliked minorities or members of disparaged social groups.

That said, there is definitely a problem, in many places, with people riding carelessly at excessive speeds on shared use paths, beach boardwalks and so forth. Add in bike delivery persons with very borderline batteries and the reasonable concern about fires and the situation is ripe for bad law making.

Our discussion here needs to be replicated in many venues in the hope that necessary regulation is also reasonable, fair and enforceable.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I'm just suggesting an approach to the issue. I think you're always going to have problems with this whether you go with regulating bikes or regulating behavior, but I think regulating behavior is the right approach. To be clear, I mean posting speed limits and expecting people to obey them or face consequences. Enact statewide or local jurisdiction speed limits for bikes, so that unless posted otherwise, bikes are limited 25 mph. Post MUPs at 15 mph, or whatever. People who violate the speed limit should be fined and maybe arrested if there are aggravating conditions. Those who bring, say a Surron to a MUP and obey the speed limits should be fine, just like those who bring a Ferrari to the street and obey the speed limit are.

I'm not suggesting an instant fix, just what I think makes the most sense.

TT

 

[tomjasz]

World record for most failed IQ tests documented in a single video:

Luna(ticks) by Hicks.

 

[tomjasz]

I was riding first version BBSHD kits in the mid 30's, 33-36 MPH nearly a decade ago now.
The problem for me was the braking with available gear. My beastly 9 Continent will run as a one speed 0-30MPH all day...

Feed it 60V, add some Amps, stator aide and fins.... Nothing new or to worry about IMO. So far the nannies have been outspoken with none of the predicted horrors.

 

[PCeBiker]

I was riding first version BBSHD kits in the mid 30's,

Cool
How old are you anyway?

I didn't know there was BBSHD kits available in the mid 30's.

I found this one from the 30's, but it's a hub drive,..

 

[Mike_V]

E-Bikes are getting faster, more powerful, and pushing the limits of what’s street-legal. With models hitting 40+ mph and custom builds going even beyond that, it raises the question ,how fast is too fast for an eBike?

Should high-speed eBikes be regulated like motorcycles? Or should riders have the freedom to push the limits? Some say anything over 28 mph belongs in a different category, while others argue that technology is evolving, and laws need to keep up.

What do you think? Should eBikes have a speed cap, or should we embrace the thrill of high-performance rides? Also, drop your fastest eBike setups lets see who’s really pushing the boundaries

Well, Hey Dapstar: How fast have you ridden down 6,000 feet of Mount Lemmon on the Catalina Highway during your youth?
Because your question about speed depends upon what seems to be your own situational awareness since no motor is required for cycling at high speeds.

 

[PCeBiker]

I remember going on a motorcycle trip with my dad to the Appalachians when I was 15 years old.
(We stopped for a ride on the clogged tooth driven train ride up the mountain.)

We were coming down a mountain highway and there was a guy on a ten-speed just Screaming Down the mountain.

My dad carefully pulled out to pass him and matched his speed to clock him while we passed.
He was going 55 mph.

He was Completely Focused, and didn't take his eyes off the road.

It was Fricken Impressive!!

I was an fearless (reckless?) 15 year old, but I knew I couldn't do that.

The slightest miscalculation and he would have been killed.

 

[mschwett]

I remember going on a motorcycle trip with my dad to the Appalachians when I was 15 years old.
(We stopped for a ride on the clogged tooth driven train ride up the mountain.)

We were coming down a mountain highway and there was a guy on a ten-speed just Screaming Down the mountain.

My dad carefully pulled out to pass him and matched his speed to clock him while we passed.
He was going 55 mph.

He was Completely Focused, and didn't take his eyes off the road.

It was Fricken Impressive!!

I was an fearless (reckless?) 15 year old, but I knew I couldn't do that.

The slightest miscalculation and he would have been killed.

a good illustration of why it’s such a stupid point that “even acoustic bikes can go fast downhill so e-bikes aren’t a problem.” going extremely fast on a bike requires focus, very particular circumstances, and some skill, especially past 35 or so.

the fact that your incident (which is extreme) stuck in your head decades later is an illustration of how rare it is. an experienced roadie bombing a descent at 45+ has basically nothing in common situationally to a delivery guy on a moped dressed up to look like a bike blasting across crosswalks and city streets at 25+!

 

[PCeBiker]

especially past 35 or so.

That's kinda both a speed limit and an age limit.

I'm more than fine with the 20 mph I have now.

My fear and comfort level are inversely proportional to my speed.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Well at age 12 I did +20mph down the massive hill by my house on a big wheel.
I'll be damned if anyone is going to restrict me below that speed now like I'm some inept European

 

[PCeBiker]

I know that I'll live through a crash at 20 mph, and probably get back up laughing.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I know that I'll live through a crash at 20 mph, and probably get back up laughing.

One of our gang flew through the hedge row at the bottom of the hill...
He still has the GI Joe scar under his left eye.

 

[PCeBiker]

Well at age 12 I did +20mph down the massive hill by my house on a big wheel.

My friend and I found a Big Wheel in the garbage when we were 11 yrs. old.
It had a broken front axle or dropout.
We fixed it easily and started bombing up and down the street.
The original owner saw us on it and told his grandmother.
She approached us yelling and screaming in Portuguese, then forcibly removed the Big Wheel from our possession.

We got ripped off for our efforts.

 

[Gionnirocket]

My freind and I found a Big Wheel in the garbage when we were 11 yrs. old.
It had a broken front axle or dropout.
We fixed it easily and started bombing up and down the street.
The original owner saw us on it and told his grandmother.
She approached us yelling and screaming in Portuguese, then forcibly removed the Big Wheel from our possession.

We got ripped off for our efforts.

You were probably exceeding the EU limits allowed

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Well at age 12 I did +20mph down the massive hill by my house on a big wheel.
I'll be damned if anyone is going to restrict me below that speed now like I'm some inept European

Who exactly is restricting your speed? In Europe you can basically go as fast as you want as long as you have a license and insurance. What we're talking about here are vehicles that require neither of those.

 

[PCeBiker]

Who exactly is restricting your speed?

My e-bike will go 43 kph with a fully charged battery.
I restricted it myself to 32 kph so I'm not risking up to $5,000 in fines.

I'm pushing the limits anyway, riding no-hands more than 90% of the time, and never pedaling, so I don't want to be speeding.

Now with two batteries, I don't have to check my display at all.
I had gotten OCD about it, and it's been really hard to let it go.
I turned my display to face down. That helped.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Who exactly is restricting your speed? In Europe you can basically go as fast as you want as long as you have a license and insurance. What we're talking about here are vehicles that require neither of those.

No one... And that's how I like it

My e-bike will go 43 kph with a fully charged battery.
I restricted it myself to 32 kph so I'm not risking up to $5,000 in fines.

I'm pushing the limits anyway, riding no-hands more than 90% of the time, and never pedaling, so I don't want to be speeding.

Now with two batteries, I don't have to check my display at all.
I had gotten OCD about it, and it's been really hard to let it go.
I turned my display to face down. That helped.

Personally 25mph is my limit... It just feels natural and safe and within the hardwares' limits