Keeping it Legal for the Common Good, Staying Within the Legal Classes

[jabberwocky]

Can you quote any study to back this up?

There are precious few studies about ebikes as a whole, much less how much it drives increased use by long-banned user groups. As a personal observation, I will say that some of my MTB advocacy friends have commented on more issues with high power ebikes/emotorcycles on trails in the past 2 years. I think its a combination of "people buy a SurRon because they think its cool and want to ride it on whatever dirt trail they find" combined with "marketing on those does vaguely insinuate they are actually legal bikes if they have pedals on them". Youtube is certainly full of people ripping around streets/trails on SurRons and Talaria Stings and the like.

 

[PedalUma]

I created and installed a footrest for this kid at the second location on Friday. It is his mom’s coffee shop with the Adirondacks. Then the mom went to Whole Foods to buy some fish for dinner. The fish monger was so impressed with her, her enthusiasm, and her bike that he printed a N/C sticker. She was not charged at check out. The kid, Franco, likes to go down the steepest hills, scary steep. When the SUVs are backed up for preschool drop-off Natalie rides past them to the head of the line. She can get across town in seven minutes with no searching for parking, when it takes 22 in a car plus searching for and walking from parking. Hers is class three. The other moms are envious. Her husband said jokingly that she will need to buy all new pants to accommodate her muscles.

 

[mschwett]

i have mixed feelings about this whole topic. i agree wholeheartedly with the notion someone posted initially that “your freedom stops where mine begins,” or something like that. people in the united states seem to be mistaken at times about the nature of freedom in a society. it is a shared right, and one doesn’t have the freedom to do things which notably impinge on other’s basic rights.

roads and sidewalks and MUPs and all that are public resources, owned collectively by all of us, paid for collectively by all of us, and managed by the representatives we elect or their delegates. those people have been empowered by us (as inept as they seem sometimes) to set rules which safeguard collective rights, safety, etc.

my first goal would be to get as many people out of cars and into bikes, foot, and public transit as possible. even with electrification, that’s the first goal. the ill effects on everything from health to the environment of everyone rolling around on 4,000lb boxes to get from place to place have been catastrophic. so i’m willing to put up with a bit of a mess to get more people out of cars, and that includes e-bikes and e-scooters which exceed what i personally think is safe or reasonable…

but i do draw the line at the safety of my family (kids) when we’re out on bikes, and as unpopular as it may be to say so here, one of the biggest risks they face when we ride is big, heavy, overpowered, (often illegal) e-bikes in the bike lanes and on paths. fat tires, 80lb, 1,500w, a cadence sensor to let you ghost pedal, and a throttle is not a bike, it’s an electric motorcycle, and it should be treated as such. i think this is best achieved by a combination of class definitions and restrictions and local use limits. these have to be set locally because local conditions vary so much. i also think the use definitions should allow any e-bike to be used anywhere when it’s turned off.

 

[CodyDog]

Until asshats like Luna(tics) are regulated it’s just all blather. WTF Is with the American market? Gotta have a V8 and f*ck the planet. A 36v motor can do it all. Even for us fat ass old guys.

I use my V8 for pulling my travel trailer. So, are you implying I don't care about the planet?

 

[AHicks]

but i do draw the line at the safety of my family (kids) when we’re out on bikes, and as unpopular as it may be to say so here, one of the biggest risks they face when we ride is big, heavy, overpowered, (often illegal) e-bikes in the bike lanes and on paths. fat tires, 80lb, 1,500w, a cadence sensor to let you ghost pedal, and a throttle is not a bike, it’s an electric motorcycle, and it should be treated as such. i think this is best achieved by a combination of class definitions and restrictions and local use limits. these have to be set locally because local conditions vary so much. i also think the use definitions should allow any e-bike to be used anywhere when it’s turned off.

Sorry, this is total hog wash, or I'm a total dummy, because I don't get how you might really believe a comment like this? Please explain how a bike that fits your description is/might be a danger to your kids when it's being ridden in a manner very similar to how you ride your bike, or your kids riding theirs? Or are you going to sit there and try to convince me all these bikes are speeding, or otherwise endangering other traffic, based only on the bike's specifications? Where would you even get an idea like this?

Are you going to go off on people not pedaling too, regardless of their potential physical limitations, even though they are moving with the traffic on a multi use trail?

 

[AHicks]

I use my V8 for pulling my travel trailer. So, are you implying I don't care about the planet?

I HOPE Tom is thinking of the kids driving smoking, 5 ton, jacked up, big tire, trucks back and forth to work - that have never even been hooked up to a trailer or carried anything over 100lbs in the truck's bed.

 

[tomjasz]

I use my V8 for pulling my travel trailer. So, are you implying I don't care about the planet?

No not at all. I believe they have their place. Sadly many are just not needed. I owned two. My last Tundra was a favorite vehicle. I pulled a trailer and 150G spray tank and my dirtboats on the weekend. I do see a s*it load of one person monsters that aren’t work trucks. That said the times require rethinking fossil fuels.

 

[PedalUma]

@CodyDog I think was talking about the people who have amplified exhaust systems and race to stop and wait at the next traffic light for as long as they can until it turns green so they can do it again to show their support of Putin, Texas and the Saudi Princes. Five (little) guys have monster trucks that roll coal that they park together at the local gym. They drive five blocks to take the elevator to the second floor stair climbers and stationary cycles.

 

[mschwett]

Sorry, this is total hog wash, or I'm a total dummy, because I don't get how you might really believe a comment like this? Please explain how a bike that fits your description is/might be a danger to your kids when it's being ridden in a manner very similar to how you ride your bike, or your kids riding theirs? Or are you going to sit there and try to convince me all these bikes are speeding, or otherwise endangering other traffic, based only on the bike's specifications? Where would you even get an idea like this?

Are you going to go off on people not pedaling too, regardless of their potential physical limitations, even though they are moving with the traffic on a multi use trail?

where i get an “idea like this” is thousands of miles ridden by myself and with my kids. there are many scenarios but the most typical case is going uphill in a separated bike lane when someone zooms past at 20+ mph with barely enough space to pass. bikes are separated from cars where possible because they move at slower speeds, which is why limiting the power or speed of a bike to something similar to what a human can produce makes sense. the second most common is ten people stopped at a red light in the bike lane. sometimes two abreast, sometimes single file. dude at the back wants to get ahead of everyone when it goes green, slams the throttle to try and go from 0 to 28 in three seconds, again requiring him to weave through / around 9 other cyclists starting up.

again, i don’t think such vehicles should be illegal. they just shouldn’t be in bike lanes in the city. i doubt it’s as much of an issue in the suburbs or rural areas.

so no, it’s not “total hog wash.” the chances of an acoustic or moderately powered eBike cyclist behaving like this are zero since humans don’t put out a sustained 1,500 watts cruising uphill on their way to work. i don’t ride off road much but my MTB friends complain about the exact same issues on uphill sections of singletrack.

 

[Gordon71]

I use my V8 for pulling my travel trailer. So, are you implying I don't care about the planet?

Probably depends on what one compares it to. A monster motor home or a Prius pulling a mini camper.

 

[PedalUma]

Those coal rollers that park together at the gym like the company of other men working out but also in the locker rooms, showers and saunas. The trucks compensate for other short comings, plus roid shrivel.

 

[jabberwocky]

so no, it’s not “total hog wash.” the chances of an acoustic or moderately powered eBike cyclist behaving like this are zero since humans don’t put out a sustained 1,500 watts cruising uphill on their way to work. i don’t ride off road much but my MTB friends complain about the exact same issues on uphill sections of singletrack.

Its an issue even with class 1 mountainbikes; the added power even there is enough where new riders can overtake experienced riders uphill, and it also has created some problems with trails that traditionally nobody has ridden up (because of steepness/difficulty) suddenly being used as uphill trails by riders on ebikes.

Nothing some rider education can't solve, but problem would definitely be worse with higher power bikes.

 

[AHicks]

where i get an “idea like this” is thousands of miles ridden by myself and with my kids. there are many scenarios but the most typical case is going uphill in a separated bike lane when someone zooms past at 20+ mph with barely enough space to pass. bikes are separated from cars where possible because they move at slower speeds, which is why limiting the power or speed of a bike to something similar to what a human can produce makes sense. the second most common is ten people stopped at a red light in the bike lane. sometimes two abreast, sometimes single file. dude at the back wants to get ahead of everyone when it goes green, slams the throttle to try and go from 0 to 28 in three seconds, again requiring him to weave through / around 9 other cyclists starting up.

again, i don’t think such vehicles should be illegal. they just shouldn’t be in bike lanes in the city. i doubt it’s as much of an issue in the suburbs or rural areas.

so no, it’s not “total hog wash.” the chances of an acoustic or moderately powered eBike cyclist behaving like this are zero since humans don’t put out a sustained 1,500 watts cruising uphill on their way to work. i don’t ride off road much but my MTB friends complain about the exact same issues on uphill sections of singletrack.

It sounds to me like you're describing somebody driving like a jack a$$. We've already discussed that potential and what should happen to them.

If somebody speeding by you on a hill seems like a danger to you and your kids, would you say these clown suit "pro" analog riders doing this on the level are also putting you into that same danger - without even having a battery? Is this about the bike, or the rider?

 

[jabberwocky]

It sounds to me like you're describing somebody driving like a jack a$$. We've already discussed that potential and what should happen to them.

If somebody speeding by you on a hill seems like a danger to you and your kids, would you say these clown suit "pro" analog riders doing this on the level are also putting you into that same danger - without even having a battery? Is this about the bike, or the rider?

I think the point is that sure, some people are jackasses. But take 1000 people and give them carbon road bikes and turn them loose on the local MUP, while you'll have some problems, its somewhat mitigated by the fact that even with a fancy road bike it takes a great deal of training and riding to be able to sustain higher speeds and be that sort of problem and very few will attain that. On the other hand, take 1000 people and give them 3000w ebikes and turn them loose on the local MUP, you'll have a much greater number of problems (probably an order of magnitude more) because anyone who is so inclined to jackassery will be able to indulge themselves right off the bat.

Sure, you can argue the person is the problem, but when it comes to public infrastructure we do have to design to the fact that people are selfish and impatient do stupid things. Its why we have speed limits and stop signs and all the other legal items (and enforcement agencies empowered to enforce said legalities) to try and keep some semblance of order on public roads. Its also why we try and define ebikes as something other than motorcycles. Saying the rules are dumb, we can ignore power/speed limits on bikes and just trust people to just ride acceptably is... very optimistic about human nature.

 

[Roamers]

you and your kids, would you say these clown suit "pro" analog riders doing this on the level are also putting you into that same danger -

My observations are I would rather be passed by a clown suit pro. Typically they are better riders and considerate by calling out their intention to pass. Too many "in a daze, earphone inserted" throttlers that have no idea what they are doing.

 

[Rexlion]

I think it's way too easy to judge folks based on the size of their motors (or motor vehicles). The guy tooling down the city path on a SurRon might be going to the grocery store, and he might only have one ebike which he also takes out on really challenging terrain every so often. Same with the guy in a huge diesel pickup; you might see him in the store parking lot, but you don't know what else he does with that truck. This type of judgmentalism strikes me as no better than evaluating a person's value by his physical appearance. Actual misbehavior is reason to evaluate and form an opinion about someone, but the size of his equipment is not (you can take that whichever way you like! ).

 

[PatriciaK]

I'm probably breaking the law riding my east coast class 2 bike on the MUPs around the city. The streets are just too crowded and dangerous for me. I ride slow - like I'm almost never out of PAS 1, rarely use PAS 2, and have never, ever used a higher PAS than 2. I don't disconnect my throttle, because there are occasions where I need it - like on the short, steep section of the trail that comes out suddenly onto the street. I am courteous to other users. I'll take my ticket, if I ever get one, but I'm certainly no risk or threat run anyone else when I ride.

 

[Rexlion]

A 36v motor can do it all. Even for us fat ass old guys.

Dunno about that. I don't think the 36V B&D mowed my lawn worth a crap. Very uneven results. When it died I gladly moved up to a 60V Toro, which handles everything I throw at it. So when it came time to order an ebike, I took experience into account. Gimmee some torque, baby!!

 

[Gordon71]

I'm probably breaking the law riding my east coast class 2 bike on the MUPs around the city. The streets are just too crowded and dangerous for me. I ride slow - like I'm almost never out of PAS 1, rarely use PAS 2, and have never, ever used a higher PAS than 2. I don't disconnect my throttle, because there are occasions where I need it - like on the short, steep section of the trail that comes out suddenly onto the street. I am courteous to other users. I'll take my ticket, if I ever get one, but I'm certainly no risk or threat run anyone else when I ride.

What is your highest PAS level and have you tried the hill using it? I never use my throttle on hills even when it's plugged in as my PAS level 5 works better on steep hills than my throttle does.

 

[PatriciaK]

I think it's way too easy to judge folks based on the size of their motors (or motor vehicles). The guy tooling down the city path on a SurRon might be going to the grocery store, and he might only have one ebike which he also takes out on really challenging terrain every so often. Same with the guy in a huge diesel pickup; you might see him in the store parking lot, but you don't know what else he does with that truck. This type of judgmentalism strikes me as no better than evaluating a person's value by his physical appearance. Actual misbehavior is reason to evaluate and form an opinion about someone, but the size of his equipment is not (you can take that whichever way you like! ).

I don't like to judge, but I've read data over the years indicating that though SOME, perhaps even MANY, drivers of large trucks (and SUVs) have a legitimate need for them, MOST do not. True, I never know which group an indivudual fits into, but, most of the time, it's pretty safe to guess .