Keeping it Legal for the Common Good, Staying Within the Legal Classes

The guy was very proud of his idea. He called it 'cruise control'. I asked him if duct tape would be less Hee Haw than a zip tie to secure the throttle at always full blast. https://darwinawards.com/darwin/ And the winners for 2022 are ...
 
One guy in Manitoba came up with the idea to zip tie his twist throttle to full blast and to turn it off with the brake lever cut out. I haven't heard from him in one year. What could happen?
I will need to get some white pants.
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Stuck on full throttle? Sounds like a recipe for white pants with yellow and brown crotch stains!
 
One of my ebikes doesn't fit the 3 class ebike laws yet I still manage to not act like an asshole around others on it. I discovered quickly that most ebikes weren't going to negate my medical issues considering my weight and the terrain that I live on. All laws requires enforcement to be effective - I would rather see enforcement of laws based on operators intent/actions -like the law already does with 4 wheel motor vehicles rather than stifling future advancement of personal EVs with motor size restrictions.
 
One of my ebikes doesn't fit the 3 class ebike laws yet I still manage to not act like an asshole around others on it. I discovered quickly that most ebikes weren't going to negate my medical issues considering my weight and the terrain that I live on. All laws requires enforcement to be effective - I would rather see enforcement of laws based on operators intent/actions -like the law already does with 4 wheel motor vehicles rather than stifling future advancement of personal EVs with motor size restrictions.
So you think anything two (and presumably 3) wheeled with an electric motor should be allowed anywhere unpowered bikes are allowed, with no restrictions on motor size, vehicle size, etc?
 
With the four lane to two lane for cars project, parking was placed between the cars and the bike lanes. Bikes ride to the right with parked cars to their left. @AHicks would approve.
 
So you think anything two (and presumably 3) wheeled with an electric motor should be allowed anywhere unpowered bikes are allowed, with no restrictions on motor size, vehicle size, etc?
Are you still going after anyone that questions the merits of the 3 class regulations? Are you aware that LEVA is petitioning the EU to adopt a 50kph max assist speed for ebikes and allow them to be ridden anywhere a bike is allowed. I also think they are questioning the "technology neutrality" of the 250W limit (obviously this was set to keep out the cheap hub motors from China to allow time for the mid-drive companies to establish firm market share in the EU). We simply need common sense legislation that allows ebikes to be effective transportation / urban mobility. I took some time off from protesting the 3-class legislation push by People for Bikes but it's clear that more and more riders are starting to realize the EU and US regulations of ebikes is not acceptable.

Note: Again I ask every ebike rider to read HR727 as it's a far better legal definition for a Low Speed Electric Bicycle (LSEB) to be considered as a bicycle. States should focus on "use" regulation and not redefine what is a compliant ebike / LSEB.
 
So you think anything two (and presumably 3) wheeled with an electric motor should be allowed anywhere unpowered bikes are allowed, with no restrictions on motor size, vehicle size, etc?
That's not even close to what he said....
 
That's not even close to what he said....

He said:

I would rather see enforcement of laws based on operators intent/actions -like the law already does with 4 wheel motor vehicles rather than stifling future advancement of personal EVs with motor size restrictions.

Bold mine. If motor size restrictions as they pertain to ebikes stifle the advancement of personal EVs, I'm just wondering if there should be a line, or should we just say "walking/bike infrastructure gets a speed limit (or something similar to roads) and anything electric is fine on it (which would be the logical conclusion of "no motor size restrictions", like cars).
 
He said:



Bold mine. If motor size restrictions as they pertain to ebikes stifle the advancement of personal EVs, I'm just wondering if there should be a line, or should we just say "walking/bike infrastructure gets a speed limit (or something similar to roads) and anything electric is fine on it (which would be the logical conclusion of "no motor size restrictions", like cars).
I doubt seriously many would agree to that, no matter the specs on your bike.....

Reminds me of an incident I experienced. In the northern part of the lower and most of the UP, some (not all) of Michigan's snowmobile trails are open to about anything able to navigate deep snow. This includes off road trucks, which the snowmobilers just despise, because these trucks always seem to do their level best to tear up trail grooming paid for by the snowmobilers (24" deep ruts everywhere they go).

Then, there's the incident I experienced. I was leading a single file column of about 6 experienced sledders on a winding trail through the woods. We were doing maybe 40mph (there are NO speed limits on these trails). Cresting a slight hill, I met a pickup whose front grill filled my entire field of vision, going in the opposite direction. Until we met, there was no hint of the other's presence. Trail in the area was groomed to about 10' to 12'. We both freaked out, stuffing our vehicles into the opposite snowbanks on each side of the trail. Only by some miracle, there was no chain collision behind me, and the truck and I avoided a collision.

He had to call a buddy to pull him down off the snowbank (he said he was going about 25, but my bet is he was doing 40 or so just like we were). We all managed to get our sleds pointed in the right direction. That took a while to regain some semblance of composure before proceeding... We all had a good laugh that evening, still not sure how we survived/managed to miss each other through that incident without a scratch.
 
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… I would rather see enforcement of laws based on operators intent/actions -like the law already does with 4 wheel motor vehicles rather than stifling future advancement of personal EVs with motor size restrictions.

the problem with an emphasis on use limits and enforcement is that it’s VERY hard to do without licensing. it works for roads because cars are registered, regulated, and insured and their drivers are licensed. a cop can read your license plate and find out who the vehicle is registered to and a million other things. if you do some crazy s*it but escape (as would be VERY easy on a fast e-Bike in an urban environment) the law really has no recourse.

of course some enforcement is already possible - primarily by cops on motorcycles - but it is limited.

i do not want bikes to require registration, insurance, or the riders to be licensed. you can’t solely or even primarily rely on use limits the way cars do - and lets not forget that despite unlimited power and handling envelopes, cars have a TON of regulation to be allowed on-road. bikes should be simpler. keep them close to the performance envelope of a non-powered bike and let them be used everywhere bikes are allowed. above that, let them be used on-road.
 
@mschwett, Interesting? There could be voluntary third party registration and certification in some municipalities. They would apply a QR to that serial number. It would pre-emptively avoid 'class of bike' disputes, help secure ownership rights, and facilitate transfers. All voluntarily. IMO the overpowered 'bikes' are very expensive to maintain because bike parts are not meant to do that, so they will be self-eliminating from the gene pool. 120-160Nm Ultra Bafangs are falling apart in a matter of months. Drive trains and hubs explode. Some do not even pedal these. When you need to spend much more than a bike is worth to maintain it each season, people will give up on them. With some such as the 100-pound fat folders, tires seem to last merely a few weeks.
 
I doubt seriously many would agree to that, no matter the specs on your bike.....

Reminds me of an incident I experienced. In the northern part of the lower and most of the UP, some (not all) of Michigan's snowmobile trails are open to about anything able to navigate deep snow. This includes off road trucks, which the snowmobilers just despise, because these trucks always seem to do their level best to tear up trail grooming paid for by the snowmobilers (24" deep ruts everywhere they go).

Then, there's the incident I experienced. I was leading a single file column of about 6 experienced sledders on a winding trail through the woods. We were doing maybe 40mph (there are NO speed limits on these trails). Cresting a slight hill, I met a pickup whose front grill filled my entire field of vision, going in the opposite direction. Until we met, there was no hint of the other's presence. Trail in the area was groomed to about 10' to 12'. We both freaked out, stuffing our vehicles into the opposite snowbanks on each side of the trail. Only by some miracle, there was no chain collision behind me, and the truck and I avoided a collision.

He had to call a buddy to pull him down off the snowbank (he said he was going about 25, but my bet is he was doing 40 or so just like we were). We all managed to get our sleds pointed in the right direction. That took a while to regain some semblance of composure before proceeding... We all had a good laugh that evening, still not sure how we survived/managed to miss each other through that incident without a scratch.
I happened to be on one of those UP snowmobile trails in June... the sign made me laugh.
snowmobile trail UP-sm.jpg


Or should I say, "Those Michigan state highways are in rough shape" ? ;)
 
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@mschwett, Interesting? There could be voluntary third party registration and certification in some municipalities. They would apply a QR to that serial number. It would pre-emptively avoid 'class of bike' disputes, help secure ownership rights, and facilitate transfers. All voluntarily. IMO the overpowered 'bikes' are very expensive to maintain because bike parts are not meant to do that, so they will be self-eliminating from the gene pool. 120-160Nm Ultra Bafangs are falling apart in a matter of months. Drive trains and hubs explode. Some do not even pedal these. When you need to spend much more than a bike is worth to maintain it each season, people will give up on them. With some such as the 100-pound fat folders, tires seem to last merely a few weeks.
You would have a tough time proving that with mine. 1500 miles on the original chain that's showing very little wear. Put one in off road service and that may change, but even there I don't hear a lot of guys complaining about it.

"Falling apart in months" sounds like that might be an internet truth/rumor to me.....
 
I happened to be on one of those UP snowmobile trails in June... the sign made me laugh.
Boy, does that bring back some memories.... All of those signs are put up and maintained by snowmobilers.

Unless you've been there done that, you really have no idea. You may be doing 60mph in the middle of the night when you see a sign like that. Riding late at night let's you see oncoming traffic much more easily/sooner.

You want to talk big power? Try 600 lb production sleds that come stock with 150-200 hp. Consider that power to weight ratio for just a second. Put them on a trail like the one in the picture, groomed 10-12' wide with traffic going in opposite directions. Trees that close to the trail are the norm. NO speed limits as a rule. Not until you get close to a town. An absolute blast for those with some experience. Talk about self eliminating gene pool. Guys trying to handle sleds like this that while driving a little "under the weather"?

There are a quite a few scarred up trees on the outside of some corners.....

There was a group of maybe 20 of us, and on any given ride there would usually be 2- 6 of us from the group of 20. We rode over 40 years together (so you can imagine how well we knew each rider's habits), hundreds of thousands of miles, without one injury. I bailed when I was 62. Others in that group are still riding - the 2nd and 3rd generations of the group that first started riding together in the 70's. Guys we taught to ride fast safely starting in their pre-teens. Took me 3 seasons to teach the wife to ride safely and hang with the best riders at speeds people here would consider absolutely nuts. -Al
 
Interesting and respectful discussion, thank you all for the contributions.
“your freedom ends where the next person begins”.
I couldn't agree more. After a few years of MUP commuting this shared principle of respect for others makes the whole thing work, and when cast aside I can see how the system breaks down. A few memories of this:

* A road cycling treating the MUP as his personal training zone and threading a very narrow gap between opposing groups of pedestrians at high speed. He missed taking out the groups by centimetres. I put that down to a Strava PB or training regime taking precedence over the safety of fellow users. He would have be better served by training on roads or at hours with less foot traffic.
* A similar scenario where an older couple on a pair of brand new matching ebikes weaved dangerously between two groups. It looked like simple inexperience on the part of the cyclists.
* An off the leash dog decided to have a go at a colleague on his ebike. The dog connected with the wheel and went flying. Dog and rider were fine, dog received a dressing down from its owner. The dog legally should have been on a leash, lesson learned hopefully.
* Ebiking up a long gentle hill one on the MUP one morning I picked up a roadie drafter. I had no idea he was there, there was no verbal indication or audible cue whatsoever - I overtook him a kilometre back down the hill and he must have thought the race was on or used me as an air block up the hill. Two groups of walkers had stopped to talk up ahead so I eased off the pedals and my invisible drafter flew into the back of me. He went flying and scraped his elbow pretty badly. I managed to stay upright, slowed to a halt and checked on him for a few minutes before we went our separate ways. I was rattled and mortified I'd contributed to his accident but mystified that he gave no warning he was there.
* On several occassions a dirt bikers would tear up the MUP at dusk on my ride home - completely illegal. He was a young guy who lived in the area and would tear through the bush, across gridlocked 4 lane highways. Always a bit terrifying to see him buzz past at 70 km/h but I guess the authorities or maturity caught up with him eventually because I haven't had that happen the last few months.

Beyond that there's the weekly nuisance of pedestrians walking down the middle of the pathway with earbuds on oblivious to their surroundings, but a few sharp rings of the bell and I'm on my way.

I think ebikes work wonderfully on MUP's. There's very little cost to slowing down to pass pedestrians or slower riders safely - we're not focused on maximum momentum efficiency like the road cyclists nor do we have to put much energy into getting back up to cruising speed afterwards like regular recreational cyclists.

I live in Australia where our ebikes are restricted to 25 km/h (20 km/h if you sport a throttle). That may take some of the tension out of the prevalence of ebikes on MUP's and MTB trails that I read about in the US.

I don't see high powered ebikes as necessarily a risk in and of themselves. No reason why someone riding a derestricted bike can't do it in a respectful manner, slowing down to the same respectful crawl that I do when passing. Derestricted bikes do get noticed though - I was sitting with my in-laws at the beach the other week and they commented on some throttle-only 'cyclist' weaving his way in and out of pedestrian traffic at dangerous speeds. I held my tongue but their comment was 'those things should be banned'. I think it was the lack of pedaling more than the speed which irked my in-laws in this case.

I see it ultimately as a numbers game: throw enough high powered ebikes onto shared use pathways and sooner or later one will end up in the hands of someone with a higher risk profile, perhaps under the influence of drugs or alcohol, experiencing a mental crisis, or maybe just running late for work or having a bad day. Speed + mass + impaired judgement can and does result in fatal consequences. These incidents do get noticed by the non-cycling public.

From time to time I lobby our transit authority to review our low ebike limits, but I'd rather preserve our current right to use MUP's and MTB trails. And I'm always careful to be part of the 99.5% of positive MUP interactions: a smile and a wave does wonders!
 
I get confused when electric motorcycles are marketed as some hybrid of Class 2 or 3 e-bike plus motorcycle speed settings and claim they don't require licensing or registration and may be ridden on sidewalks or bike paths. For example the Ristretto 303FS uses a 3,000w CYCMotor X1, and moped shocks, but is not equipped with DOT motorcycle safety equipment and is marketed on the manufacturer website as:
"comes in two Classes. Class 2 allows for operation with throttle and pedal-assist up to 20mph. Class 3 allows for speed up to 28mph with only on pedal-assist. This allows the Ristretto 303FS to be legally ridden on most bike paths and trails without a license, insurance, or registration. Our exclusive “Race Mode’’ allows up to 3500 watts of power in the motor using the throttle and with speeds up to 40mph. This mode is for riding on private property and race tracks."
Marketing videos show riding on sidewalks and beach paths, presumably in Class 2 mode where legal, but the bike has four times the peak power of the 750w e-bike nominal rating. The FAQ's say the customer can limit to 750w in an app, but also say the controller comes programmed at 50-60a. I don't get why there is no FAQ mentioning a VIN number, or an option to buy a DOT motorcycle kit. The frames are made in Detroit so they ought to have a VIN# stamped on them, and make a DOT safety kit optional upgrade available, so as to allow an owner to be able to title and register it at the DMV to be able to insure it as a motorcycle.
 
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There are a few people here in town with those scrambler style ebikes, and AFAICT all of them use them as light motorcycles. Throttle only and unlimited mode 100% of the time. To be fair, I've never seen any of them on the local MUP, they just zip around on streets.

Thats where I think manufacturers are being disingenuous. Nobody is buying that bike to use it as an ebike. It weighs 90 pounds and the pedaling position on any of the scrambler bikes is atrocious. I'd bet that almost all of them sold (not just the Ristretto, but the Super 73s/Juiced/Ariel/etc) are run in "off road mode" pretty much all the time, and the other modes are only there as a CYA for riders and the sellers.
 
People for Bikes should have known that pushing their multi-class system would just open the door to multi-mode programming such that it would be impossible to enforce the poorly conceived system (not that they cared because they just wanted the lobby money). Sadly many on this forum support the 3-class state legislation because they think it provided them trail access for their Class 1 ebikes which was part of the 3-class system's propaganda. The Federal HR727 definition of a "low speed electric bicycle" as a bike was working and was far better but it was more of threat to the auto and gas industries.

Now we see that LEVA is pushing a one class definition in the EU very much like HR727 (except they propose top assist speed of 50kph instead of power limit at speeds above 20mph which is more bike-like in how speed is limited) because it's clear their current 25kph assist limit is limiting the adoption of ebikes for transportation and it never had anything to do with safety.
 
For those who don't know Michigan geography, I was referencing the little town of Hell, Michigan. Yes, there really is a Hell, and someday you too could bike through Hell and back! :)
 
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