Keeping it Legal for the Common Good, Staying Within the Legal Classes

[PatriciaK]

What is your highest PAS level and have you tried the hill using it? I never use my throttle on hills even when it's plugged in as my PAS level 5 works better on steep hills than my throttle does.

I think I have 5 levels on my Flow, but feel I have better control with the throttle.

 

[mschwett]

It sounds to me like you're describing somebody driving like a jack a$$. We've already discussed that potential and what should happen to them.

If somebody speeding by you on a hill seems like a danger to you and your kids, would you say these clown suit "pro" analog riders doing this on the level are also putting you into that same danger - without even having a battery? Is this about the bike, or the rider?

nope. never once in 10,000 miles has a roadie (wearing lycra or not) caused me or my kids to fall off our bikes. i can’t even recall a close call… and i live pretty much at ground zero for roadies.

… and if you think a pseudo-pro analog rider is putting down 500+ watts of power for more than a very short burst, you are mistaken. no doubt there are assholes of all types out there on bikes of all types, but an asshole on an analog bike simply has much, much less ability to be unsafe because they are limited to roughly the same speeds as everyone else, which also happen to be the speeds that bike parts and bike infrastructure were designed for.

 

[mschwett]

I think the point is that sure, some people are jackasses. But take 1000 people and give them carbon road bikes and turn them loose on the local MUP, while you'll have some problems, its somewhat mitigated by the fact that even with a fancy road bike it takes a great deal of training and riding to be able to sustain higher speeds and be that sort of problem and very few will attain that. On the other hand, take 1000 people and give them 3000w ebikes and turn them loose on the local MUP, you'll have a much greater number of problems (probably an order of magnitude more) because anyone who is so inclined to jackassery will be able to indulge themselves right off the bat.

Sure, you can argue the person is the problem, but when it comes to public infrastructure we do have to design to the fact that people are selfish and impatient do stupid things. Its why we have speed limits and stop signs and all the other legal items (and enforcement agencies empowered to enforce said legalities) to try and keep some semblance of order on public roads. Its also why we try and define ebikes as something other than motorcycles. Saying the rules are dumb, we can ignore power/speed limits on bikes and just trust people to just ride acceptably is... very optimistic about human nature.

exactly. saying the problem is primarily the bike, or primarily the rider is overly simplistic. in many cases it’s the combination of the two which create problems. a jackass on a cheap hybrid bike isn’t going to make a dangerous pass in the bike lane because they’re not going faster then me, especially not uphill on a crowded city street. downhill, it doesn’t matter because you take the lane downhill, and many roads here only have bike lanes or shoulders uphill for exactly that reason. on level ground, unless said jackass is on a drop bar road bike with great aerodynamics and form, they’re not going fast enough to create a risk either … and if they were, they’d likely be a very experienced rider and thus very unlikely to run into someone.

 

[Gordon71]

I think I have 5 levels on my Flow, but feel I have better control with the throttle.

That's really interesting as I'm just the opposite. I have 5 PAS levels on my Rad Rover and feel I have more control when using them than when using the throttle. Might make an interesting thread for class 2 owners. I tried a throttle only ride once and it felt jerky. Mines a twist throttle and I found it hard to keep a steady pace.

 

[PatriciaK]

That's really interesting as I'm just the opposite. I have 5 PAS levels on my Rad Rover and feel I have more control when using them than when using the throttle. Might make an interesting thread for class 2 owners. I tried a throttle only ride once and it felt jerky. Mines a twist throttle and I found it hard to keep a steady pace.

Mines a thumb type, but the big thing is, it works like a gas pedal - push a little, it goes a little. "Floor it", and it goes flat out. Stop pushing, it stops immediately. I find it much easier to control because it's much more incremental than the PAS.

 

[AHicks]

nope. never once in 10,000 miles has a roadie (wearing lycra or not) caused me or my kids to fall off our bikes. i can’t even recall a close call… and i live pretty much at ground zero for roadies.

… and if you think a pseudo-pro analog rider is putting down 500+ watts of power for more than a very short burst, you are mistaken. no doubt there are assholes of all types out there on bikes of all types, but an asshole on an analog bike simply has much, much less ability to be unsafe because they are limited to roughly the same speeds as everyone else, which also happen to be the speeds that bike parts and bike infrastructure were designed for.

Oh, so am I understanding correctly that some guy on a hot rod e-bike caused one of you to FALL OFF while being passed going up a hill? I must have missed that earlier. Did he actually make contact/bump into one of you, or was this just caused by some sort of distraction. Details please.... Or is that comment totally irrelevant, some fantasy you just dreamt up to make your point?

I agree the pro analog driver isn't going to be carrying a lot of speed for long. My point is somebody passing you should be a pretty tolerable situation most people should be able to handle easily - and it shouldn't make a damn bit of difference what that bike might look like. If you have an issue being passed safely, that's YOUR problem.

I think it also safe to say rookie bike owners are going to make mistakes. We all did, right? Are you saying we should legislate that potential?

 

[Roamers]

We all did, right?

Motorcycle yes, bicycle no.

 

[mschwett]

Oh, so am I understanding correctly that some guy on a hot rod e-bike caused one of you to FALL OFF while being passed going up a hill? I must have missed that earlier. Did he actually make contact/bump into one of you, or was this just caused by some sort of distraction. Details please.... Or is that comment totally irrelevant, some fantasy you just dreamt up to make your point?

my 11 year old has been hit by a rider on a throttled, presumably high power bike twice. both times in a bike lane, going up a steep grade (approx 15%). both times she was in the lane, probably towards the middle of it, and a dude in a hurry on a bike capable of going 20mph uphill without any user input hit her trying to squeeze between her and a car. once on the parked car side, once on the traffic side. once she recovered, once she fell. bent derailleur hanger, jammed chain, and skinned elbow. walk of shame to bike shop to fix it.

again, i think those bikes should be legal - for use IN THE ROAD. not on bike lanes.

every close call i or we have ever had with another cyclist has been with an ebike.

you seem unable to imagine that circumstances or conditions beyond your immediate experience are anything other than “fantasy”

 

[PedalUma]

I have done bike stuff all day. It has been great. I made this Class 1 bike today. The rear cog is 23-T so it tops out at Stefan speeds. But it climbed a 15% grade in a test. The owner loves her bike, goes slowly, and wants to climb hills. It is a simple one-speed coaster brake bike. Simple is very hard to pull off.

 

[PedalUma]

It is a bit like guns? Who needs to shoot 120 lambs in two minutes? A farmer. A deer hunter. The dead are not recognizable by their parents. DNA is the only way. You put enough of them out there and the inevitable will happen.

 

[tomjasz]

Dunno about that. I don't think the 36V B&D mowed my lawn worth a crap. Very uneven results. When it died I gladly moved up to a 60V Toro, which handles everything I throw at it. So when it came time to order an ebike, I took experience into account. Gimmee some torque, baby!!

It was to long. I used my B&D for a decade in Lost Wages. But having been an agronomist my perfect lawn at home and at The Mirage were mowed every 5th day. Those Bosch and similar systems can be mountain goats with 36V. My newest 36V 21700 20Ah packs do everything I need. Gone are my 3 48V and 52V BBSHD eBikes. I just didn’t need that power. Or torque. But hey, all good, enjoy your ride. That’s what we all do!

 

[tomjasz]

Mines a twist throttle and I found it hard to keep a steady pace.

In my experience it’s the twist throttle.

 

[AHicks]

you seem unable to imagine that circumstances or conditions beyond your immediate experience are anything other than “fantasy”

I will admit my experience is limited to more rural situations. I don't do bike lanes separated from traffic by only a painted line for any reason, let alone crowded bike lanes, nor do I ever intend to. I consider them dangerous (reinforced further by your experience), but not because somebody may be riding a throttle equipped e-bike in my proximity (oh no!). I find I can mix it up with about any traffic I've ever run into on busy multi use paths/trails without incident or even close calls. That in mind, I have no plans to change my ways, and I won't ask you to change yours. Despite all this, pretty sure the sun will still come up tomorrow.

 

[Roamers]

Those Bosch and similar systems can be mountain goats with 36V

My Gazelle is 36 volts. Hauls my fat butt around just fine. But I have no need or desire to ride at speeds more than about 1/2 (on shared paths) to 3/4 (on streets) of Class 1 defined assist speeds.

 

[AHicks]

It is a bit like guns? Who needs to shoot 120 lambs in two minutes? A farmer. A deer hunter. The dead are not recognizable by their parents. DNA is the only way. You put enough of them out there and the inevitable will happen.

That thought occurred here too, but as I don't want to get sidetracked comparing e-bike capabilities to the appropriate gun/weapon, thought the better of it.

 

[mschwett]

I will admit my experience is limited to more rural situations. I don't do bike lanes separated from traffic by only a painted line for any reason, let alone crowded bike lanes, nor do I ever intend to. I consider them dangerous (reinforced further by your experience), but not because somebody may be riding a throttle equipped e-bike in my proximity (oh no!). I find I can mix it up with about any traffic I've ever run into on busy multi use paths/trails without incident or even close calls. That in mind, I have no plans to change my ways, and I won't ask you to change yours. Despite all this, pretty sure the sun will still come up tomorrow.

yes - hopefully we can agree that what this highlights is that there is a need for local control over these matters. local governments build the roads and sidewalks and bike lanes.

everything in life is dangerous, but in nearly 10,000 miles we’ve not had any close calls with cars. traffic speeds in the city where my kids and i ride are much lower than in rural areas, there are literally stop light or stop signs every couple hundred feet, lots of bike lines, some MUPs, and drivers are extremely aware of cyclists, since it’s actually a viable means of transportation for a decent and growing % of people.

 

[PedalUma]

One guy in Manitoba came up with the idea to zip tie his twist throttle to full blast and to turn it off with the brake lever cut out. I haven't heard from him in one year. What could happen?
I will need to get some white pants.

 

[DaveMatthews]

One guy in Manitoba came up with the idea to zip tie his twist throttle to full blast and to turn it off with the brake lever cut out. I haven't heard from him in one year. What could happen?
I will need to get some white pants.
View attachment 131761

TRAGEDY!!!

 

[AHicks]

yes - hopefully we can agree that what this highlights is that there is a need for local control over these matters. local governments build the roads and sidewalks and bike lanes.

everything in life is dangerous, but in nearly 10,000 miles we’ve not had any close calls with cars. traffic speeds in the city where my kids and i ride are much lower than in rural areas, there are literally stop light or stop signs every couple hundred feet, lots of bike lines, some MUPs, and drivers are extremely aware of cyclists, since it’s actually a viable means of transportation for a decent and growing % of people.

Have you considered the law of averages?

In Florida, people (bikes, pedestrians, etc) are getting run down regularly. One woman pushing a baby buggy on a scenic walkway between a road (with curb) and a river in Tampa was run over by a drunk kid drag racing, and both mom and the baby were killed. Wasn't long and a pretty substantial retaining wall was installed to separate the traffic. Imagine that... no admission of guilt on the part of city admin. though.

Another incident involved a buddy of mine in his mid 70's at the time. He's a recumbent nut. A pickup got just a little too close to him, and the truck mirror clipped my buddy's mirror, turning the handlebars just enough to cause him to drive down into a 6 foot ditch. Injuries took nearly a full year for him to heal well enough to ride again.

No thanks my man. I will NOT be riding any bike lanes, especially those that consist of paint....I AM a product of an entirely different experience..... -Al

 

[PedalUma]

TRAGEDY!!!

We just took two four lane roads down to two for cars with good separation and nice bike lanes. It is part of a pilot project and will expand.