Is it possible to lower the PAS level?

[AHicks]

The point I was clumsily trying to make was that, if making sure you get a good workout when riding an ebiike, having a bike that can do good speed without you having to put out effort may interfere with meeting your exercise goals, at least for those of us who are more prone to give in to temptation. For me having a bike that makes me do some work provides some external discipline/limitations that made a mid drive a better choice.

One of the things you hear over and over again regarding Rad's bikes, is that although they are not a perfect solution for all, a little thought can generally fix whatever it is you aren't happy with.

The concept of if it's not perfect so I'm going to return it will have one returning bikes for years in a forever search for the perfect bike.....

 

[vincent]

Let me be clear, I have a rad rover and had a rad mini, I very much the like rad power company

But also understand where the poster is coming from and am disappointed that rad has not done better with their controllers - would like to buy the step thru mini but will not until I ride it first for this very reason, hopefully the 2019 are different

There may not be a perfect bike but some companies are programming their controllers better than others



Alaskan I am not really sure how to respond to that, first off there are cadence and torque hub motor bikes with throttles that you can easily get a workout on
I personally ride for battery mileage most of the time and on my cadence bikes spend 65% or more of my rides without power simply because the cadence kills the power when you reach a certain speed...

I tend to get 20-25 miles more than the maximum battery mileage listed for my bikes whether hub motor or mid drive
And all my hub bikes have throttle

The misconceptions on Using throttles are mind-boggling, have any of you guys talking negatively about them actually ridden several different throttle/hub bikes?

Funny side note on that- had a bike with a crappy one level pas and throttle, I turned off the pas and ran it with throttle only all the time, got great battery mileage with a small battery

Put a cycle analyst and torque sensor on it and it cut my battery miles way way down, sure it was a more natural feel system but I lost 15 miles or more each battery charge running it that way
Because before on throttle I only used power when needed to get up a slight hill etc
With the torque setup I used it all the time

I apologize again for taking this off topic

 

[harryS]

DragNLady's CIty Bike is a direct drive motor. The pedals move and she says the bike wants to go 15 mph. Gears can't help. And because it's a direct drive motor, if she shuts off PAS, she has to fight the doggone magnets in the motor, plus the extra weight of the bike. A bad situation all around, unless you bought the buy for commuting.

A work around might be to ride it with throttle and no PAS. Otherwise, send it back. It's no fun having an ebike that won't run slow.

 

[AHicks]

Let me be clear, I have a rad rover and had a rad mini, I very much the like rad power company

But also understand where the poster is coming from and am disappointed that rad has not done better with their controllers - would like to buy the step thru mini but will not until I ride it first for this very reason, hopefully the 2019 are different

There may not be a perfect bike but some companies are programming their controllers better than others

If Rad continues to do the programming, then locking their configuration so nobody can set them to their own preferences, they will have gained nothing.

For instance - one of the bigger issues I had was regarding the "soft start" they use when accelerating. Many people favor it, but I didn't care for that at all because I felt endangered by it when crossing a busy road. I want the power to come on right now if I tell it to! So there are 2 viewpoints, both opposite of each other, and unless Rad decides to unlock this feature and allow each to set it to their own preference, they will have unhappy customers.

Another example would be our OP. She'd like to lower the RAD set assist available in PAS 1. Others are fine the way it is.

BOTH of these options (soft start and variable limits for PAS levels) are available with other controllers available today, and neither are considered cutting edge technology. It's about RAD's "our way or the highway" mindset when it comes to the electronics they are supplying.

 

[JRA]

For battery removal it looks like your bike has a pretty standard Hailong style battery. I admit they are a handful to remove as the case is slippery and they weigh quite a bit. Try putting your hand under the batteries end by the bottom bracket and lifting straight up from there while steadying with your other hand and you will end up with the weight in both hands? Worth a try anyway. Another option would be to epoxy a handle to the battery somehow.

 

[harryS]

By the way, the RADcity looks to have a display (SW900) very much like the one of one of my recent motor kits. Coincidentally, that one also has an overly strong PAS 1. It put out 400-500 watts in PAS 1. There's a couple of program parameters, perhaps locked out by RAD, but maybe available to techs. Using those parameters I was able to detune mine down to 200-250 watts, but it was still too strong. Maybe the RAD tech guy can do something here.

.

 

[AHicks]

DragNLady's CIty Bike is a direct drive motor. The pedals move and she says the bike wants to go 15 mph. Gears can't help. And because it's a direct drive motor, if she shuts off PAS, she has to fight the doggone magnets in the motor, plus the extra weight of the bike. A bad situation all around, unless you bought the buy for commuting.

Send it back.

You sir, are failing to fully understand the issue, or possibly have lack of understanding regarding a bike's gearing. Her bike has an issue that is well documented by many Rad owners (being called the hamster wheel effect by some), and though it may not be the easiest fix, many have done it on a DIY basis. This problem is so well documented by so many, RAD has made a change to the the gearing that will be supplied in the 2019 bikes, changing from a 14 to an11 tooth freewheel.

Point being, gears can and will help. There's no need to "send it back".

 

[AHicks]

By the way, the RADcity looks to have a display (SW900) very much like the one of one of my recent motor kits. Coincidentally, that one also has an overly strong PAS 1. It put out 400-500 watts in PAS 1. There's a couple of program parameters, perhaps locked out by RAD, but maybe available to techs. Using those parameters I was able to detune mine down to 200-250 watts, but it was still too strong. Maybe the RAD tech guy can do something here.

.

PAS 1 on a City will have something under 200 watts available.

 

[vincent]

Gearing is not all of it, how much power the bike puts out also affects all of that

And whether or not the controllers are programmed to shut off at a particular speed or just give continuous amount of wattage in each pas level

My rover has the older style controller - it controls how many watts and cuts power at certain miles per hour in each level

I do not have the hamster pedaling on mine, level 1 cuts power out at 6mph, level 2 at 8-9 mph and then unfortunately there is a huge jump with level 3 to 14-15mph

 

[DragNLady]

Indianajo totally get why you did the hub kit, i consider that sometimes but am not a bike mechanic etc




Dragnlady sorry i took this thread off topic

There are some solutions to this but would require some changes to your bike and void the warranty

The easiest is if your bike tech can reprogram

I dont know if this solution would work on a 20mph bike but sometimes people have changed some things in the display and it slows pas down or speeds it up, none of mine have those options so not sure, rad power should be able to answer that

You could have someone add a different controller/display that can be programmed
The cycle analyst may be able to do it even without a controller swap, but would have to be wired in by someone that knows what they are doing

Please complain to rad power about this so maybe they will change this in the future- it is also possible the 2019 controllers could be programmed different and maybe swap out with your bike....

Please keep us up to date

Thank you Vincent, that is a great idea. I will be calling RAD in the morning, I will ask them if the 2019 models have a programmable PAS control. If so, I will purchase one. I am really hoping this might work, as I am really disappointed in this bike, because it goes too fast in PAS 1. There is simply no need for that. I assumed PAS 1 would be a LITTLE bit of help, PS 2 more, and PAS 5 a lot. I simply cannot imagine ever using anything higher than PAS 2.

 

[DragNLady]

I have the Radrover and Radcity Step-Thru. Both ebikes weigh in about he same and my rover has 2X the torque with the gear hub motor compared to the Radcity direct drive. I really think the Radcity motor is under rated on paper or the direct drive set-up is really efficient at putting down power. My wife can haul some butt in PAS 1 or 2 compared to me having to use PAS 3 or 4 riding behind her. I come in at 270lbs while she is 130 lbs also has a lot to do with it. The Radcity is definitely not under powered compared to other Rad fat tire gear hub ebikes.

There is always a chance there is an issue with the controller or the settings? Are you set for 26" wheel in the LCD set-up screen? How many watts are shown in PAS 1 when you pedal? It should show about 75 watts until the motor cut-off of 32 km/h or 20 mph. Another quick fix would to adjust the motor cut-off to a lower speed like 12-15 mph in the LCD set-up screen if you never have a need to reach 20 mph?

12 mph = 19 km/h
13 mph = 20 km/h
14 mph = 22 km/h
15 mph = 24 km/h
16 mph = 25 km/h

Another option is to test out and lower the PSI for the tires in the 30-45 PSI range to add more resistance in PAS 1. The lower PSI will also give you a little softer ride at lower speeds and better traction on almost any type of surface. It will cost you some battery range and you will lose some high speed +20 mph efficiency you would get at +55 PSI.

I had a professional bike tech put my bike together so I assume he made sure it was set for 26" tires. I think I recall it showing about 65 watts.

 

[DragNLady]

Dragnlady

I bought a Raleigh Retroglide step through. In PAS 1 it goes 5/6 mph. In PAS 2 it goes 10/11 mph and so on for 4 PAS modes up to 20mph. Something to consider if you want to return your bike for another brand.

MarkF, Now, that is kind of what I was expecting! And makes a whole lot more sense than 15mph in PAS 1, which is ridiculous. How much is a Raleigh Retroglide? Probably a lot more expensive than my RAD step thru, I got one heck of a deal on Cyber Monday for $1300. Although, I would pay and extra $500. for a lower PAS so I can get some exercise at the lowest PAS level.

 

[DragNLady]

Now, that is kind of what I was expecting! And makes a whole lot more sense than 15mph in PAS 1, which is ridiculous. How much is a Raleigh Retroglide? Probably a lot more expensive than my RAD step thru, I got one heck of a deal on Cyber Monday for $1300. Although, I would pay and extra $500. for a lower PAS so I can get some exercise at the lowest PAS level.

Dragnlady

I bought a Raleigh Retroglide step through. In PAS 1 it goes 5/6 mph. In PAS 2 it goes 10/11 mph and so on for 4 PAS modes up to 20mph. Something to consider if you want to return your bike for another brand.

MarkF, Now, that is kind of what I was expecting! And makes a whole lot more sense than 15mph in PAS 1, which is

If Rad continues to do the programming, then locking their configuration so nobody can set them to their own preferences, they will have gained nothing.

For instance - one of the bigger issues I had was regarding the "soft start" they use when accelerating. Many people favor it, but I didn't care for that at all because I felt endangered by it when crossing a busy road. I want the power to come on right now if I tell it to! So there are 2 viewpoints, both opposite of each other, and unless Rad decides to unlock this feature and allow each to set it to their own preference, they will have unhappy customers.

Another example would be our OP. She'd like to lower the RAD set assist available in PAS 1. Others are fine the way it is.

BOTH of these options (soft start and variable limits for PAS levels) are available with other controllers available today, and neither are considered cutting edge technology. It's about RAD's "our way or the highway" mindset when it comes to the electronics they are supplying.

 

[DragNLady]

AHicks, well, I sure wish I had known about the fact that some controllers are programmable!!! I would have bought a bike with such a controller. Because I am not happy with my bike. I go for a 25 mile ride and I get no exercise whatsoever. That was not the reason I purchased an e-bike. I simply wanted a motor to get up hills and for the last 5 miles of a 30 mile ride when I run out of juice. People keep telling me to put it in PAS 0, well, that is not an option for a 70 pound bike, it is too heavy to pedal for a long ways. I am SAD!

 

[AHicks]

I wish you lived nearby. I think I could demonstrate this issue really is a non event pretty easily, on a ride lasting no more than 2 minutes (as long as it takes to get to 15mph). A simple gearing change really is all that is required, but apparently I'm struggling to get the idea across in a manner more people could follow.

 

[AHicks]

Gearing is not all of it, how much power the bike puts out also affects all of that

And whether or not the controllers are programmed to shut off at a particular speed or just give continuous amount of wattage in each pas level

My rover has the older style controller - it controls how many watts and cuts power at certain miles per hour in each level

I do not have the hamster pedaling on mine, level 1 cuts power out at 6mph, level 2 at 8-9 mph and then unfortunately there is a huge jump with level 3 to 14-15mph

As mentioned, power in Pas 1 is less than 200 watts. It takes about 100 watts just to run the bike at a level where it pedals the same as a bike with no assist. So at 200 watts, out OP is getting the benefit of a 100 watt boost. Not much. If there is any breeze at all, and she turns into it, that 100 watts is going to disappear immediately, just about guaranteed.

The new controllers do not cut out in any pass level (other than 0) until the upper speed limit is reached. If it were set up like yours, this would be a non event - but there are issues many don't care for when set up that way - the reason they don't do it that way any more. Again, a setting that should be an owner's option........ not something locked in by RAD. -Al

 

[vincent]

Dragnlady i am doubting the 2019 controllers would be programmable but may be programmed different and slower in level 1

Maybe AHICKS is right and there is a way to change mechanical things on the bike and fix this

200 watts all the time seems like a lot to me AHICKS....

Dragnlady i feel for you, i have been in exactly the same boat and was not happy either

That raliegh bike looks cool, i would like to test ride one of those, will see if they have any in phoenix

Keep us up to date on what rad power says

 

[AHicks]

Dragnlady i am doubting the 2019 controllers would be programmable but may be programmed different and slower in level 1

Maybe AHICKS is right and there is a way to change mechanical things on the bike and fix this

200 watts all the time seems like a lot to me AHICKS....

Dragnlady i feel for you, i have been in exactly the same boat and was not happy either

That raliegh bike looks cool, i would like to test ride one of those, will see if they have any in phoenix

Keep us up to date on what rad power says

It's not 200 watts all the time. It's 200 watts maximum.

In PAS 1, you're limited to 200 watts maximum (or something just under that, don't crucify me if its 179 or something).

For instance, when pedaling slowly on a level hard surface with little effort applied, you may only be drawing 100 watts at 4-5-6mph. The motor has power on it because you are pedaling, but it certainly has very little load on it at the lower extreme seen in PAS1. If more effort is put into it and speed increases the wattage also increases - but is limited to 200 watts. If you want/need more power, you'll need to switch to a higher PAS level.

The issue with this RAD City (and most other model Rads) is that it's top speed is easily reached with very little effort. It's not going to go much faster set at PAS 5 than it is in PAS 1 because it's top speed is being limited by your cadence/how fast you can peddle. You can't peddle fast enough to go any faster. You are in effect "ghost" pedaling at just 15mph, and this can be achieved under the right conditions even set at PAS1. THAT'S the issue here.....

Imagine a bike that is geared similarly to your bike when your bike is in 4th gear. This imaginary bike's max speed is the same speed you are capable of in 4th - due to the gears it's using. A bike might be set up like this for mountain riding for instance. How would we change that if we were going to convert it to more of a road bike? Simple, we would change to a different gear set. This new gear set would be much more difficult to top out from a cadence perspective. Now, our top speed will be determined by our ability to pedal hard enough to go faster - not our ability to pedal any faster. Now we can easily stay up with the pedals - no longer stuck in hamster wheel effect.....

This re gearing is what I'm suggesting the OP have done to her bike. She will then have joined the many others that have done the same thing to their late model RAD bikes - myself included. It will then be easy to stay up with the pedals in 7th gear, and getting exercise while pedaling in 7th will be assured - guaranteed......

Go back and check out the links in my first post on this topic. You'll see comments from many others that have run into this issue, and how they cured it. It's NOT just my opinion, and those are not the only posts related to this issue from owners of the RAD bikes. -Al

 

[vincent]

I do understand that changing the gearing will help with ghost pedaling and maybe you are right and this is the only thing dragnlady is worried about

My point was she may not want to be doing 15-18 mph all the time in pas 1 either even if she is getting exercise, but maybe that won’t matter to her

 

[Feliz]

Doesn't help the OP but I guess with a Bafang hub (or mid) drive it's just a matter of using a Bafang cable and reprogramming the controller/motor.
At least my friend just did this with his Surface604 Rook. Hopefully they'll all be this way soon. I believe the Radcity has a Shengyi direct drive doesn't it?