I Disagree with the Majority - My 2 cents

[dean1]

...since their bikes are sold out before the shipment even arrives.

Of course they are always sold out -- that's the point. They order only enough bikes for the people who paid in advance (the so-called "pre-order"). My OP gets to the question: since the "pre-order" status appears to be perpetual, why don't they order more and avoid the next "pre-order?" Is it because they are unable to shell out the capital required to order bikes that are not sold yet?

I just pre-ordered a bike that was released a year ago,

 

[Chris Hammond]

So Chris, why are you so defensive about Juiced?

I'm not defensive about Juiced, I was merely pointing out the flawed logic that Juiced is likely to take your money and run. As I said, I don't know about Juiced finances specifically. What I do know is that if I owned a business like Juiced where I had customers paying up front for a product I made that was in such high demand, that my biggest problem was increasing supply to meet the demand, I would be smiling at the profits, and putting some of that money back in on the production side to watch the profits grow even more. The last thing I'd be thinking about would be shutting it down and trying to run with people's money. That would be killing the proverbial "golden goose".

 

[jazz]

I am not a big fan of the pre-order model after the initial couple of rounds. I can see why many companies do it. There is huge advantage to taking pre-orders - companies don't have to upfront large sums of money, can gauge demand, limit risk and order in sufficient quantities.

It works well when deadlines are met and customers are happy. However, this models tends to be much more work in the end to pull off. The problems begin to happen with delayed orders, defective products or components etc. Because the funds are already allocated there is little room for growth and so you have to repeat the process every time you have a new product.

There are several disadvantages to this model which I think, will have a more negative affect on sellers in the long run, especially those who have longer shipping times. Potential loss of profit from potential sales (not having stock) and the decrease in overall profitability are the two main pitfalls. The long delay between pre-orders can cash strap a small company with little room for error and no room to grow.

I know Juiced sells on Amazon but only models they have in stock. Amazon allows pre-orders but only if you can do it within a 30-day window and this obviously does not work for Juiced.

As far as buying a "pre-order", the best thing is to always use a credit card, and keep copies of any communications with the seller. Most credit card companies give you 6 months for your "period of protection" to do any challenges or charge backs.

Having worked in this space before, there are almost always unintended delays especially with new products. The best thing you can absolutely do is communicate with your customers. You will find that most are forgiving if you are upfront.

 

[dean1]

So far my theory is not coinciding with reality. I ordered my bike on Sat and they have not charged my card yet.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

@Solom01 ,@PCDoctorUSA ,@dean1 ,@John from Connecticut,

Have you guys heard of a company called Riese and Muller??
They are a German company that makes good bosch powered ebikes.

You have to pay upfront for a bike and wait 8-12 weeks (2 to 3) months. If you pay $300 air ship option, then you may get it within a month. Their bikes start at $4500 and go upto $8000. Compare the entry level bike to juiced CCS at $1699!

They have adopted a lean manufacturing process and they only make bikes that are already paid for either by the dealer or the customer.

The reason I mentioned this is, juiced is taking some heat for "pre-payment" while other companies are getting a free pass. It reminds me of forum conversations when Sondors started selling bikes. There was a deluge of opposition but he did deliver in the end and sort of changed the industry.

I have known @Tora Harris for about 4 years now. He is a very hard working man with integrity. He certainly knows the growing pains of a company and I'm sure he'll address that.
He personally knows the the folks at Bafang. Do you think he can't make bikes with BBS-HD or ultra motors? He has tested them all. He is certainly offering a unique product.

I think they are little blindsided by the overwhelming demand for their products. They also went consumer direct last year and I hope they will up their customer support. There is a ton of good information by other members. One thing is for sure, their bikes offer great value and their customer service and communication needs improvement.

But, I also think certain customers are unreasonable. They want immediate, Amazon - like delivery AND the lowest price.
They always have the option of walking to the nearest Trek or Giant store and get one today. Nobody is stopping them.

We only see small % of customers on the forum, there might be a huge customer base that doesn't go on public forums to voice their opinions. May be many of them are really satisfied.

Some opinions are fueled by jealousy. All in all, our petty opinions here (including mine) may not really reflect the growth or the downfall of a company like juiced.

We all wish them success and their customers a satisfying ebike experience.

 

[dean1]

@Solom01 ,@PCDoctorUSA ,@dean1 ,@John from Connecticut,

Have you guys heard of a company called Riese and Muller??
They are a German company that makes good bosch powered ebikes.

You have to pay upfront for a bike and wait 12-16 weeks (2 to 3) months. If you pay $300 air ship option, then you get it within a month. Their bikes start at $4500 and go upto $8000. Compare the entry level bike to juiced CCS at $1699!

You are proving my point. In the RM case the multi-month delay is shipping time, since you can have it in a month using air freight. And as far as I can determine, you can only purchase from a brick and mortar dealer. Any "pre-ordering" that needs to be done is because the dealer does not keep an inventory, not because of the bike company. Or am I missing something here?

Moreover, I don't think the price of the item can be used as a defense. As a matter of fact, I would say that the lower end product should have a quicker turnaround because its more commoditized.

As I mentioned above, my cc has not been charged yet and JB's actions have not yet completely justified my post. To be continued....

 

[Ann M.]

@dean1, I think you might be misunderstanding what Ravi wrote. As an ebike dealer & repair center for 17 years, we've dealt with pre-order issues that are a result of the time it takes to ramp up production and deal with the initial bugs that pop up in first run bikes. It's not a dealer's inventory issue. How could it be an inventory issue if it's a new product? I've dealt with design & production delays for new products from ebike companies like IZip/Currie Tech/Accell, Haibike, A2B and others. There are no giant ebike companies like there are motorcycle & car companies.

Please remember, too that all of the parts that go into any electric bike are sourced from a number of different companies, some who may have been part of a new design motor or battery, etc. So delays from parts sources or their ability to ramp up production can also factor into delays.

Pre-orders also help the manufacturers gauge interest in a particular new product and be fair to those with the greatest interest & desire for the new product. The downside of that comes when interest is so strong that an initial production run can't match the desire. Then it's a matter of some patience. Additionally, a partial or full prepayment guarantees the commitment of a buyer since there are costs for both the manufacturer & a dealer once an order is placed.

As an example, when Haibikes were first introduced to the US market, everyone waited 3 to 5 months for the first batches. That was rough! but Haibike was trying to address the issue of chain suck and problems with the short lifespan of the small gear inside the first Bosch mid drive motors. So patience and now Haibike has grown with a lot of capital investment and can better meet demand. One final note, new models coming from European manufacturers generally are months later before arriving in the US partially because the European market is more predictable and open to electric bikes than we are.

I don't personally know what all the delays are concerning Juiced Bikes but Tora Harris is a decent person working to meet the demands of an incredibly fast growing business and we all hope he's able to succeed.

 

[dean1]

@dean1, I think you might be misunderstanding what Ravi wrote. As an ebike dealer & repair center for 17 years, we've dealt with pre-order issues that are a result of the time it takes to ramp up production and deal with the initial bugs that pop up in first run bikes. It's not a dealer's inventory issue. How could it be an inventory issue if it's a new product?...As an example, when Haibikes were first introduced to the US market, everyone waited 3 to 5 months for the first batches

What new product? Click here for a view of JB website from 9/10/2017. On that page it states:

Update Aug 22nd, 2017: The CrossCurrent S shipment has arrived! Please be patient as we work through the pre-orders. The "S" is our fastest selling product ever. This shipment is sold out. Place a pre-order for early November arrival.

Sound familiar?

Assuming that the August shipment was the very first one, I can understand a "pre-order" for that "new" product. That's not what I am talking about. I am observing a perpetual pre-order. The writing is already on the wall in Sept 2017. What is the reason (if not financial decision) for not stocking more bikes than the the number or "pre-orders" so that the next order does not have to be a pre-order.

I can understand that issues may arise that puts a kink into the process, and maybe face an out-of-stock situation, but I cannot understand the reason for the perpetual "pre-orders." The solution: Order More!

Your Haibike example illustrates the soundness of my observations. Now, I can buy 10 Haibikes today tomorrow and next week

My first ebike I bought was a new one on market - - Prodeco Phantom X. I don't recall any similar issues.

I don't personally know what all the delays are concerning Juiced Bikes but Tora Harris is a decent person working to meet the demands of an incredibly fast growing business and we all hope he's able to succeed.

This is not about Tora personally. Its just business. Tell him to order more bikes than the number of pre-orders he receives!

 

[Ann M.]

dean1, Prodeco Tech went through it's share of production issues when they first started up and had a very difficult time meeting dealers' expectations for delivery, with multi-month delays like what is frustrating Juiced Bike owners. However, they have focused on managing production at their Florida facility primarily facing the usual issues of parts availability. They don't manufacture overseas like Juiced and many other companies do. Perhaps something to be said for companies that assemble ebikes in the US? Just a thought

 

[Barry S]

We only see small % of customers on the forum, there might be a huge customer base that doesn't go on public forums to voice their opinions. May be many of them are really satisfied.

Some opinions are fueled by jealousy. All in all, our petty opinions here (including mine) may not really reflect the growth or the downfall of a company like juiced.

We all wish them success and their customers a satisfying ebike experience.

I don't want my suggestion that Tora hand the reins of Customer Support over to someone better experienced in that field to come across as an attack on Tora. I don't own any JB model, and neither do I have one on order, so I don't have a "bone to pick" with JB or Tora. It does seem though from this sampling of experiences that better communication with the customer on when they can expect to receive delivery of their bike as well as any updates could be greatly improved. I'm sure working with overseas' suppliers and all the logistics involved in getting it here is a hair pulling experience. Perhaps moving forward with future pre-orders, JB should extend out the expected delivery date. I'd rather tell a customer that delivery time will be 12 weeks and then look a superhero when I deliver it in 10.

As with most social media, negative opinions whether founded or not will usually outnumber the positive ones. When we get the goods or services we expect we're too busy enjoying them to tell others about our positive experience. However, when we're kept waiting or have to deal with a defective product we seem to have all the time in the world to rant. I too wish Tora and JB great success because they're turning out a good bike at a great value. I'd like to see more CCS and RCS owners post their experiences online, good or bad, whether it be a written write-up or a YouTube video. But in the famous words of Joe Friday, "Just the facts."

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I think very few people would disagree that Juiced Bikes has come up with an ebike that's a great value. From what I've read during the CCS rollout days up until now, most buyers are willing to wait several months for delivery of their bike IF Juiced Bikes would simply communicate a realistic delivery time you could count on. I've met great idea and design guys like Tora Harris before, and they are wonderful at their craft. However, their "gift" often falls short when it comes to the business relationship with the customer, and that's where they need to delegate to someone that excels at just that. Of course, you can hire the best person available to handle customer support, but if you don't loosen your grip on the reins and let them take care of the customer than you're shooting yourself in the foot.

Well put. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Tora's great strengths as an engineer and project manager need to extend further, to delegating customer service to someone who knows how to do it right.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I've beat this horse as far as I care to. There's no movement towards resolution in any direction. I applaud everyone for keeping it as civil as it has been.

All I have left to say, that I haven't already said, is this: if you don't like the way Juiced does business, don't do business with them.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I just pre-ordered a bike that was released a year ago,

I'm confused as to why you even ordered then?

Anyway, my take is that you are putting down money for a bike to be built. Juiced builds and ships in batches, so depending on when your batch ships from China your timeline may vary, along with the odd QA issue. I wish they were a bit less optimistic and more communicative but I think it's a sound process.

As to why they don't just "buy more" I think that requires scaling up assembly workforce and that requires a good judge of demand. I think they are being cautious. Maybe they can't afford to? But so far, everyone seems to get a bike.

My timeline:

Ordered Feb 26 for delivery "mid March"
I reached out on April 9, they said it would ship in the next 10 days
Shipped April 19
Arrived April 24

About a month late. Not thrilled about the delay, but it was raining then anyway and so far the bike is great.

 

[dean1]

I'm confused as to why you even ordered then?

Because its $500-$700 less than the alternative and I don't mind waiting for that. But that is not as confusing as "pre-ordering" a bike that was released a year ago

Judging by your story (and some others) you are implying that sometimes you can order a bike and it will already be at the warehouse, that they do have bikes availavble that were purhcased without a pre-order, and some people are lucky to get theirs at a "normal" time frame -- like shipped in 7days or whatever?

 

[TForan]

I personally wouldn't pay for a bike up front unless it was in stock. I bought a bike last fall and it was delivered in a week. I understand growing pains but not on my dime.

 

[Chris Hammond]

So, Juiced's customer service is not so bad. The taillight that came with my CCS shorted out. I put in a support ticket with Juiced last night, got a response earlier today, followed by a ticket and a shipping notification for a replacement being mailed out today. No muss, no fuss. I really can't complain about that.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I think all of their 'batches' are selling out before they make it to the US, so you generally have to wait.

They could choose to make bigger batches or more frequent batches, but they would have to scale up people to assemble, pack, etc.

Thus far they haven't done that. I do think that's limiting their revenue, but it's also limiting their risk. Which is probably good for you now that you have an order in the pipeline.

I think the CCS is a good value for the money if you can be patient.

 

[highpockets]

Just wanted to say I appreciate everyone's two cents.

I did quite a bit of research and came to the conclusion that Juiced has one of the best deals out there. Of course, that's just going by my research, which is not exhaustive, professional, or infallible.

It seems others have did basically the same thing and came to the same conclusion.

Here's my two cents. If you did the research, you also know your going to have to wait to get your bike.

We're all trying to figure out what is going on at Juiced. We all want to know what is going on in My. Harris head. I personally hope he is thinking: 'I got to get up early and get these bikes shipped'. Who knows. Really, I don't have to run his business. I say, let him do his thing. Let him do it his way. Just know what your looking at before you order.

Yes, I would enjoy riding my CCs, but, honestly, I have enjoyed the anticipation. I come home from work and look for updates on the Juiced website. Go to this website and look for new posts. Look at a couple of other websites trying to find what I feel would be a better deal on a bike. I do all of this from my recliner without even breaking a sweat! It's not that bad of a deal.

Anyway, between now and when I actually get my bike, I'm going to need something to do so keep posting.

 

[dean1]

dean1, Prodeco Tech went through it's share of production issues when they first started up and had a very difficult time meeting dealers' expectations for delivery, with multi-month delays like what is frustrating Juiced Bike owners. However, they have focused on managing production at their Florida facility primarily facing the usual issues of parts availability. They don't manufacture overseas like Juiced and many other companies do. Perhaps something to be said for companies that assemble ebikes in the US? Just a thought

But we are not talking about a company that is just starting up; and like I said I had no issues getting my brand-new model 2013 bike in 2013. In any case none of the JB defenders here have suitably addressed my observations. I will pick on you here because you are an "insider" by giving you an example.

When I ordered my CCS Step Thru (with 12.8 Ah battery) last Saturday the web site claimed, and still does:

"More 48V/12.8 Ah bikes are on the way and pre-ordered 12.8 Ah bikes will ship before May 31st."

When I added it to the cart, the description read: "Pre-order for Mid-June '18." OK, fine; I'll wait. My central question is this: When they ordered the bikes for the "pre-order" being shipped end of May, why didn't they order any additional bikes above and beyond those pre-orders? For example, if 75 get pre-ordered, why not order 100? 150? ...rinse, and repeat.

I don't see how the answers given by the JB defenders (technology-related, company age-related) are good reason not to order extras; and if I don't neither do a lot of other people. Using other people's money to order from China is a good reason -- not saying I am against it, just being real.