Heres some real world ebike motor data.

[Ken M]

While 250W EU spec motors is "good enough" for recreational / mtn ebikers it simply is not adequate for an effective urban mobility solution. If an ebike is to have enough merit to get people out of a car for some trips / commutes from home they need to be able to average faster speeds like 18-28mph. It's not really possible for the 250W mid drives to enable an urban ebike to sustain say 25mph up a 6% slope regardless how much rider effort is put in (and most riders using a bike for transportation don't want to arrive at their destination soaking we with sweat).

The 750W rated Bafang Ultra is the only mid drive in my opinion designed to be an effective drive system for urban and cargo ebikes. The EU bunch of tiny power drive systems just need to stay on the trails.

 

[fooferdoggie]

20mph is not a big deal on my bosch. I tend to cruise at 22 on one bike. 28 on a bike all the time is not really a good thing. I dont that speed would give you the reaction time you need on the road with cars on a heavy bike.

 

[retiredNH]

While 250W EU spec motors is "good enough" for recreational / mtn ebikers it simply is not adequate for an effective urban mobility solution. If an ebike is to have enough merit to get people out of a car for some trips / commutes from home they need to be able to average faster speeds like 18-28mph. It's not really possible for the 250W mid drives to enable an urban ebike to sustain say 25mph up a 6% slope regardless how much rider effort is put in (and most riders using a bike for transportation don't want to arrive at their destination soaking we with sweat).

The 750W rated Bafang Ultra is the only mid drive in my opinion designed to be an effective drive system for urban and cargo ebikes. The EU bunch of tiny power drive systems just need to stay on the trails.

Sounds like you want an electric moped or motorcycle. I agree that there's a subset of folks who can be lured out of their cars if they have a two wheeled solution that's fast enough. However, let's not forget that a fast, higher powered solution, like a 750 watt two wheeled vehicle, is a different thing to handle, and should properly be in a different category, where registration, insurance, training and licensing of both the vehicle and the driver is required. That's exactly what most jurisdictions already do, for mopeds and motorcycles.
Let's not create additional confusion between lightly regulated low risk bicycles and more dangerous higher powered vehicles.

 

[BEC111]

Sounds like you want an electric moped or motorcycle. I agree that there's a subset of folks who can be lured out of their cars if they have a two wheeled solution that's fast enough. However, let's not forget that a fast, higher powered solution, like a 750 watt two wheeled vehicle, is a different thing to handle, and should properly be in a different category, where registration, insurance, training and licensing of both the vehicle and the driver is required. That's exactly what most jurisdictions already do, for mopeds and motorcycles.
Let's not create additional confusion between lightly regulated low risk bicycles and more dangerous higher powered vehicles.

I chose a class 3 (28 mph assisted) bike because I wanted to be able to move fast on those occasions I rode on streets and roads. It does help to be able to hit higher speeds when there are lots of cars, but almost all drivers speed so even on a street with a 25mph limit where I can ride that fast, the cars are going to be faster. the drivers won’t be that pissed, though.

I try to avoid riding on the street if I’m alone. It’s too easy for them to pick you off. When I’m with a group, I feel safer. (Insert favorite bad joke here.)

 

[retiredNH]

I chose a class 3 (28 mph assisted) bike because I wanted to be able to move fast on those occasions I rode on streets and roads. It does help to be able to hit higher speeds when there are lots of cars, but almost all drivers speed so even on a street with a 25mph limit where I can ride that fast, the cars are going to be faster. the drivers won’t be that pissed, though.

I try to avoid riding on the street if I’m alone. It’s too easy for them to pick you off. When I’m with a group, I feel safer. (Insert favorite bad joke here.)

I understand your point about riding at traffic speed, but is there any evidence that doing so is safer? I suspect you'll find it's the opposite - the faster the biker goes, the more the risk of serious injury. But maybe not? IDK.

I do think being visible - bright clothing, proper reflectors and safety lights are far more important than riding "with the flow of traffic", but again, maybe not?

Regardless, my initial concern is still valid. The faster you go, the more kinetic energy you carry, which in turn can do more damage (harm) to yourself and to others. If a rider wants lots of power to move them faster, that threat should be tempered with proper licensing and insurance.

 

[BEC111]

I understand your point about riding at traffic speed, but is there any evidence that doing so is safer? I suspect you'll find it's the opposite - the faster the biker goes, the more the risk of serious injury. But maybe not? IDK.

I do think being visible - bright clothing, proper reflectors and safety lights are far more important than riding "with the flow of traffic", but again, maybe not?

Regardless, my initial concern is still valid. The faster you go, the more kinetic energy you carry, which in turn can do more damage (harm) to yourself and to others. If a rider wants lots of power to move them faster, that threat should be tempered with proper licensing and insurance.

I agree. Speed on the streets is more an emotional issue for me. I started riding again at 71 after more than 50 years and I’m not really comfortable riding on streets with cars.

Cycling at high speeds is definitely more dangerous, or at least more painful, than going slower.

Whatever. My average cycling speed is from 12-15 mph, so the speed the availability of assist to 28 mph is more theoretical than practical.

 

[Sweetwater]

I agree. Speed on the streets is more an emotional issue for me. I started riding again at 71 after more than 50 years and I’m not really comfortable riding on streets with cars.

Cycling at high speeds is definitely more dangerous, or at least more painful, than going slower.

Whatever. My average cycling speed is from 12-15 mph, so the speed the availability of assist to 28 mph is more theoretical than practical.

There were no +75lb Chinese bikes on my ride this afternoon.
The Bafanng system is 15lbs alone.
Going fast on a heavy bike equals a big energy release if stopped quickly.
Great to hear you're back at your age, I'm 5 years behind you.
2 fusions and a new left knee 9 weeks ago.
I got 1300 vertical climbing feet over 4 miles today.
But that made the roundtrip 4 miles downhill with little effort.
This was my first big climb, been doing flatter riding till now.
Not nearly enough snow in the Wasatch mountains I live by.

 

[retiredNH]

You guys are both youngsters...but we ride on. This picture is from my ride last Friday. At least the temp was in the high 40s. Today the high is forecast to be in the teens.

 

[tomjasz]

Mill pond, or? Beautiful!

 

[tomjasz]

Regardless, my initial concern is still valid

Spot on you DO know! Drivers see a bike and expect pedal bike speeds. Making an eBike rider needing to be even more cautious. Riding motorcycles taught me much about cages and their spacial awareness eBike can be even more treacherous. My fast motors all got sold. 33MPH was fun, but braking sucked and the number of cages making left turns on me was just plain scary. Nuff. 15MPH with occasional 20MPH runs for longer rides running errands. I’m lucky to be able to get across town 80% on a bike path. My puny BBBS01 350w carry my fat butt at 20MPH full throttle. 19.5 with PAS. incredible mileage with 20AH 21700 cells, 36v.

 

[retiredNH]

Mill pond, or? Beautiful!

Yes, mill pond. It's Harrisville, NH, one of the best preserved New England mill villages, and one that doesn't emphasize tourism. It's the midpoint of our favorite ride, the lunch stop. We do a loop of about 17 miles with about 1500 feet of elevation change, and go by 7 ponds. Some challenging hills.

Here's an aerial view, shot with my drone last fall. The frozen lake shot would be in the upper left here.

 

[Ken M]

Sounds like you want an electric moped or motorcycle. I agree that there's a subset of folks who can be lured out of their cars if they have a two wheeled solution that's fast enough. However, let's not forget that a fast, higher powered solution, like a 750 watt two wheeled vehicle, is a different thing to handle, and should properly be in a different category, where registration, insurance, training and licensing of both the vehicle and the driver is required. That's exactly what most jurisdictions already do, for mopeds and motorcycles.
Let's not create additional confusion between lightly regulated low risk bicycles and more dangerous higher powered vehicles.

NO NO. In 2002 congress passed HR727 one vote short of full consensus that a LSEB with 750W rated motor (power limited above 20mph) was same as a bike. We can sit here on EBR and debate when motor power goes from being OK to be a bike to when it's high enough to be considered a moped / motorcycle but the fact remains that was pretty much decided in 2002.

95% of ebike riders have no clue HR727 even exists - to busy watching the Kardashians or Duck Dynasty.

Even the state 3-class legislation pushed by People for Bikes allows 750W. That is 1hp so it's not like some kind of crazy speed capable power. Where do you think the line should be drawn? Let me guess. Where the EU set it at 250W. Wow ... I prefer the US federal definition better. We should consider ourselves lucky that People for Bikes didn't use the lobby money they were given to push a 250W harmonized limit with Europe and the 25kph / 15 mph assist limit they have (that essentially renders an ebike useless for any serious commuting but hey the oil and car industries wants ebikes to remain only viable for recreation and leisure riding).

 

[Johnny]

750W is not much, a fit rider can peak much more than that, pro cyclists easily peak twice as much.
750W sustained will make long climbs easier it is not just about being faster on the flats.

That being said I don't find riding close to 28mph safe and that is a different story. Just because you have power to spare doesn't mean you should use it to go fast.

 

[tomjasz]

pro cyclists

And how many post here?

 

[Ken M]

750W is not much, a fit rider can peak much more than that, pro cyclists easily peak twice as much.
750W sustained will make long climbs easier it is not just about being faster on the flats.

That being said I don't find riding close to 28mph safe and that is a different story. Just because you have power to spare doesn't mean you should use it to go fast.

Yes. I agree. The funny thing is how many commenting in this forum seem to think that 750W is just too much power to be a bicycle. That power is best utilized to increase the average speed up hills and not about increasing the top speed riders to. There is one fact that many people ignore - a large bike study done in Europe found that like 95% of riders did hit a speed in the 28-32mph range during most rides. This was obviously the speed hit on downhills but it's relevant give the vast majority of riders must have felt comfortable at those top speeds or 95% would not have been the study result. My guess is that ebike riders don't really go any faster on those downhills so this idea that ebikers are going fast is kind of nonsense and in reality it's probably just the average speed that is higher because they are faster going up hills.

 

[retiredNH]

Yes. I agree. The funny thing is how many commenting in this forum seem to think that 750W is just too much power to be a bicycle. That power is best utilized to increase the average speed up hills and not about increasing the top speed riders to. There is one fact that many people ignore - a large bike study done in Europe found that like 95% of riders did hit a speed in the 28-32mph range during most rides. This was obviously the speed hit on downhills but it's relevant give the vast majority of riders must have felt comfortable at those top speeds or 95% would not have been the study result. My guess is that ebike riders don't really go any faster on those downhills so this idea that ebikers are going fast is kind of nonsense and in reality it's probably just the average speed that is higher because they are faster going up hills.

Anyone with the slightest knowledge of argument or logic would know that your statement makes no sense. Saying things like "95% of riders..." hit a speed, then concluding that the riders want such speeds, or are comfortable with such speed is just bogus. Etc.
I stand by my previous thoughts. If you want a high powered bike so you can go fast, get licensed and insured for such a vehicle, one that can do a lot more damage at speed than a less fast vehicle. Thank goodness I live in an area where these high powered blunderbikes aren't found - they don't handle the terrain. At least I don't need to dodge 75 lb bikes flying out of control at me down hills...

 

[tomjasz]

high powered bike

Can you please describe what that is? Motor size? Battery size and voltage? Components? I’m not trying to find an argument here. I’d just like to be clear. Isn’t a watt wagon in that group? I’ve posted before regarding what I see as MY ideal eBike and that’s evolved. I started with 36V 350W went to 1500W and back to 36V 500W. We will see more rules as this grows. In the end I was never happy selling a motor kit that peaked at 1500W capable of 32-34MPH on a Wally world bike and brakes that sucked without motor speeds. It reminds me of OSHA. Bad choices repeated with some consistency by workers and management became punishable by fines and could go to criminal charges. Homemade salvage battery packs will also bring disasters. I’m there. Build/buy a motor cycle with pedals and pay fees for what it is. It’s coming.

 

[retiredNH]

Can you please describe what that is? Motor size? Battery size and voltage? Components? I’m not trying to find an argument here. I’d just like to be clear. Isn’t a watt wagon in that group? I’ve posted before regarding what I see as MY ideal eBike and that’s evolved. I started with 36V 350W went to 1500W and back to 36V 500W. We will see more rules as this grows. In the end I was never happy selling a motor kit that peaked at 1500W capable of 32-34MPH on a Wally world bike and brakes that sucked without motor speeds. It reminds me of OSHA. Bad choices repeated with some consistency by workers and management became punishable by fines and could go to criminal charges. Homemade salvage battery packs will also bring disasters. I’m there. Build/buy a motor cycle with pedals and pay fees for what it is. It’s coming.

I have no idea how to best define a high powered bike, because I'm not an expert in the area and have not studied the topic extensively. I do know there are folks who want speed at any cost. Look at the poster above who complains about not being able to go faster UP hills, as an example.
What's going to happen when someone puts enough power on a cargo bike that it can maintain speed, but doesn't bother to put adequate brakes on it, for example? Fast bikes of any kind in a city?
Speed is a big factor, since the energy (i.e. damage potential) in a moving object goes up as the square of the speed. Double the speed, the energy goes up 4X!
If we start seeing too many bikes powered enough (how powered I can't say) to go faster than traditional bicycles, and these lead to a rise in accidents or injuries, watch out. In the US at least, who is paying any attention to ebike classification or enforcement, rules that seem to becoming outdated anyway? As some have pointed out, the three class system is ancient.

 

[AHicks]

Relevant danger to the public has nothing to do with the power of the bike or if the bike is able to accelerate going up a hill. WHO CARES? I have 2 bikes I'm pretty sure would/could be classified as "high performance", and I can count on one hand the number of times either has been under power going over 15mph. Going down hill is another matter, but still, 20mph is PLENTY fast enough here. Both of these bikes, even though they are very powerful, attract no attention because they are nothing special to look at, and only a very experienced eye would even be able to pick them out in a crowd. Point being, it's NOT the damn bike......

Relevant danger has WAY more to do with the rider. An idiot rider can raise as much hell on a 500w bike as he can on something 1000w+!!!

 

[retiredNH]

Relevant danger to the public has nothing to do with the power of the bike or if the bike is able to accelerate going up a hill. WHO CARES? I have 2 bikes I'm pretty sure would/could be classified as "high performance", and I can count on one hand the number of times either has been under power going over 15mph. Going down hill is another matter, but still, 20mph is PLENTY fast enough here. Both of these bikes, even though they are very powerful, attract no attention because they are nothing special to look at, and only a very experienced eye would even be able to pick them out in a crowd. Point being, it's NOT the damn bike......

Relevant danger has WAY more to do with the rider. An idiot rider can raise as much hell on a 500w bike as he can on something 1000w+!!!

I'll step out of this discussion, since it's not going anywhere logical. We'll just see how things go over the next year or two. But to say "it's not the...bike" misses the point rather wildly. Cars don't kill people either. It takes a driver...but we don't allow just anyone to drive any kind of vehicle, do we?