Help debugging 0 MPH with Bafang M620 & 860c display

[smorgasbord]

I am working with Luna support, which is friendly and as helpful as they can be via email. Which means that responses are delayed (each back and forth takes a whole day at least). Another issue is that they apparently don't have all the parts for Apollos in stock (they don't even have Apollo bikes for sale right now, don't know when the last time was that they had them). I'm waiting to hear what they can do on controller/motor since Thursday and probably won't hear back until Tuesday. Finding second sources and talking with you-all here has been very helpful and will get us back on the bikes sooner. So I appreciate it!

Good point on the 30/35 amp max - that would probably be most of the time, but as much as possible I like to have the bikes match.

Thanks for the pointer to the 750C, the low profile has some advantages for this bike's handlebar setup. Does it handle 52V systems properly? Some displays show an incorrect percentage, and this document says it has compatibility with 52V systems, but doesn't show "52" as an option in the Settings menu (which could be a mistake in the manual). I also note that the 750c doesn't have a USB port, which we have occasionally used to top up a cell phone. There's now a Bluetooth version - is that anything to prefer or avoid?

BTW, since it was brought up, I've been super pleased with the EggRider. It's been rock solid for me, firmware updates are now easy to apply, and being able to tune the bike via the app through it made a huge difference. I should probably list my Bafang programming cable here for sale since I can't see ever needing it.

 

[AHicks]

I am working with Luna support, which is friendly and as helpful as they can be via email. Which means that responses are delayed (each back and forth takes a whole day at least). Another issue is that they apparently don't have all the parts for Apollos in stock (they don't even have Apollo bikes for sale right now, don't know when the last time was that they had them). I'm waiting to hear what they can do on controller/motor since Thursday and probably won't hear back until Tuesday. Finding second sources and talking with you-all here has been very helpful and will get us back on the bikes sooner. So I appreciate it!

Good point on the 30/35 amp max - that would probably be most of the time, but as much as possible I like to have the bikes match.

Thanks for the pointer to the 750C, the low profile has some advantages for this bike's handlebar setup. Does it handle 52V systems properly? Some displays show an incorrect percentage, and this document says it has compatibility with 52V systems, but doesn't show "52" as an option in the Settings menu (which could be a mistake in the manual). I also note that the 750c doesn't have a USB port, which we have occasionally used to top up a cell phone. There's now a Bluetooth version - is that anything to prefer or avoid?

BTW, since it was brought up, I've been super pleased with the EggRider. It's been rock solid for me, firmware updates are now easy to apply, and being able to tune the bike via the app through it made a huge difference. I should probably list my Bafang programming cable here for sale since I can't see ever needing it.

My bad. Somewhere along the line I thought I understood you were working with Canbus. No 52v experience, so no help from me there.

You have tried the "Smooth" tune? If so, and you didn't care for it, why was that? Anything in particular?

 

[smorgasbord]

My bad. Somewhere along the line I thought I understood you were working with Canbus. No 52v experience, so no help from me there.

You have tried the "Smooth" tune? If so, and you didn't care for it, why was that? Anything in particular?

OK, let me reset again:
• Here I'm debugging problems with my bike that started with what looked to be a bad wheel rotation sensor, but ended up being a damaged wiring harness that actually eventually broke two displays AND the motor controller. I'm waiting on a new controller and display to arrive before continuing the debugging process, or whatever Luna support suggests when they're back in the office on Tuesday.

• I have tried the Frey "Smooth" tune and am using a variant of that. BTW, note that there are a number of articles on the web related to tuning that have incorrect data, including one that claims it derives off the Smooth tune - so be careful out there. At this point, I'm not worried about tuning, I've got that well in hand with the EggRider on my bike. It's my spouse's bike that's having serious problems - problems NOT related to tuning but to actual damaged wiring.

• I'll post on the Luna forum a warning for other Apollo owners to check their wiring since the grommets are sharp metal and can cut through and short the wires. An expensive situation, as I'm finding out.

 

[AHicks]

OK, let me reset again:
• Here I'm debugging problems with my bike that started with what looked to be a bad wheel rotation sensor, but ended up being a damaged wiring harness that actually eventually broke two displays AND the motor controller. I'm waiting on a new controller and display to arrive before continuing the debugging process, or whatever Luna support suggests when they're back in the office on Tuesday.

• I have tried the Frey "Smooth" tune and am using a variant of that. BTW, note that there are a number of articles on the web related to tuning that have incorrect data, including one that claims it derives off the Smooth tune - so be careful out there. At this point, I'm not worried about tuning, I've got that well in hand with the EggRider on my bike. It's my spouse's bike that's having serious problems - problems NOT related to tuning but to actual damaged wiring.

• I'll post on the Luna forum a warning for other Apollo owners to check their wiring since the grommets are sharp metal and can cut through and short the wires. An expensive situation, as I'm finding out.

Sorry, I'm aware you are having issues of a different sort you're working through. I was addressing the Egg Rider and tossing the programing cable thoughts you just mentioned....

 

[smorgasbord]

I MUCH prefer the 860c display over the DPC-18, and the 750c over both, but that's more of a personal aesthetics thing. I like it's lower profile and side by side speedo/watt meter setup.

In looking at the 750c, I see that its bracket is built-in with not a lot of clearance. I've only seen it mounted to the left or right of the stem, not over the stem. Like this:

With the 860c (and DPC18) there are two brackets that extend pretty far - enough that you can mount a bracket on either side of the stem and thus have the display in the middle of the handlebars. Here's the handlebar setup with the 860c's brackets in place.

Can this be done with the 750c as well? Remember, the display has to be at about a 45 angle to face the rider's head.

Do you have any pictures on the 750c on a bike this way?
Thanks!

 

[AHicks]

In looking at the 750c, I see that its bracket is built-in with not a lot of clearance. I've only seen it mounted to the left or right of the stem, not over the stem. Like this:
View attachment 147355


With the 860c (and DPC18) there are two brackets that extend pretty far - enough that you can mount a bracket on either side of the stem and thus have the display in the middle of the handlebars. Can this be done with the 750c as well?

Do you have any pictures on the 750c on a bike this way?
Thanks!

Sorry, I'm on the wrong end of the line for pics of that bike. I'm in SE Mi, that bike is in Florida. What I CAN share is that it's mounted OVER the stem bolts.

Here's a link to a little different pic...

750C Color Display for CYC Mid-drive Motors 36-72v

This 750C display is designed for CYC mid-drive motors. The 750C looks like it was designed into the bike. It has great lines and takes a horizontal orientation. It includes 4 buttons and is weatherproof. Features: 3.2 inch High-contrast IPS colorful dot screen. UART/CAN-BUS Communication...

www.electrifybike.com

 

[smorgasbord]

Just heard back from Luna support. They want me to send the whole motor back:
"it's not just a matter of swapping the controller, there are different variations and need to find the right match."

Ugh, so it's going back ASAP.

 

[smorgasbord]

Just heard back from Luna. Right now they're thinking they can turn the motor repair around in about a week, so that's not too bad.
I did end up getting a new 860c display, decided against the 750c for this bike, and happy with EggRider/Phone mount for my bike.
Got a deal on SRAM wireless droppers, so spent a little time today installing those, which is quite easy to do - hardest thing is if you use the included handlebar mount you have to remove grips and brake lever and shifter (since I mounted on right hand side) to get the non-pivoting included handlebar ring on. Could have used a MatchMaker, but didn't seem worth the money.

 

[AHicks]

Pure curiosity, did they mention what their plan is to "turn it around"?

 

[smorgasbord]

Just heard from Luna. The motor is fixed! They got the motor last Thursday afternoon, so less than a week turn-around. I hope to have it back early next week.
Said they replaced a burnt out "top pcb," which I assume is the controller board.
Anyway, outside of having to deal with them via slow email, Luna service came through well for me again.

 

[smorgasbord]

Ugh, so on the 6th day after receiving the motor (including weekends), Luna tells me they fixed it. I pay a hour later. They're just now - 8 days later - sending the motor back to me.
Pretty darn frustrating.
Of course, all I have is a FedEx tracking number, and FedEx hasn't received the package yet....

 

[smorgasbord]

OK, so Luna finally got the motor shipped out Fed-X last Friday and it arrived yesterday (Sunday). Well-packed.

Installed and it all works!

Now, I'm using a new 860c display, and it all seems fine, except I can't find how to switch the Ultra motor from Off-Road to Road (Sport to Eco). If I hook up my EggRider, I can switch easily, but I can't see how to do this on the 860c, nor how to tell even which mode it's in.

Ideas?

 

[Gionnirocket]

OK, so Luna finally got the motor shipped out Fed-X last Friday and it arrived yesterday (Sunday). Well-packed.

Installed and it all works!

Now, I'm using a new 860c display, and it all seems fine, except I can't find how to switch the Ultra motor from Off-Road to Road (Sport to Eco). If I hook up my EggRider, I can switch easily, but I can't see how to do this on the 860c, nor how to tell even which mode it's in.

Ideas?

Not sure but I don't believe it supports the eco/sport function... You just get 3,5 or 9 PAS settings.
I hated having the eco/sport on the egg rider and was one of the reasons it got delegated to the testing display bin.

 

[AHicks]

Not sure but I don't believe it supports the eco/sport function... You just get 3,5 or 9 PAS settings.
I hated having the eco/sport on the egg rider and was one of the reasons it got delegated to the testing display bin.

Same thoughts here on the 860c. I think just the 918 is the ECO/Sport enabled display, but I could be wrong on that.....

 

[smorgasbord]

Not sure but I don't believe it supports the eco/sport function... You just get 3,5 or 9 PAS settings.
I hated having the eco/sport on the egg rider and was one of the reasons it got delegated to the testing display bin.

I don't understand - the Bafang Ultra motor controller supports both Eco and Sport. Why wouldn't you want to be able to choose which you're using? And note you can change the switching to a long press from a short press if you don't want to inadvertently change it.

Because know that you are using one of those modes. It's just on the 860c and other displays you don't know which you're using. (Or are you always using Eco?)
I'm hopeful that if I set the default to Sport using the EggRider that the 860 won't mess with it, but I don't know, it could be something that EggRider does.

And note in the "Smooth" setting thread that Frey claims that in Eco you can't get the full benefit of your settings - that's why I want to do everything in Sport, and tone down the low PAS level boosts. If you're in Eco, you'll never get full power according to Frey if I'm reading their post correctly.

 

[smorgasbord]

BTW, this display claims it supports Eco and Sport mode setting: https://varstrom.com/products/varstrom-t1-touch

EDIT: And I think some versions of the DPC-18 also support it. Typically changed by holding down the "+" key for 2 seconds. The 860c uses that to turn on headlights, if you've got those connected through your motor.

 

[AHicks]

You should be familiar enough with the controller settings by now to know there are just the 9 power levels available. No magic. Just the 9.

It's also been mentioned several times the difference between ECO and Sport is only about ECO mode using 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 vs. Sport mode using 2, 4, 6, 8, and 9. Am I missing something? What's the fascination/attraction here? To my knowledge, you have 2 different ranges available, both within the 9 available speed ranges, and there are no other changes/profiles being switched, right? Or have I managed to miss something here?

 

[smorgasbord]

It's also been mentioned several times the difference between ECO and Sport is only about ECO mode using 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 vs. Sport mode using 2, 4, 6, 8, and 9. Am I missing something? What's the fascination/attraction here? To my knowledge, you have 2 different ranges available, both within the 9 available speed ranges, and there are no other changes/profiles being switched, right? Or have I managed to miss something here?

Yeah, from the Frey "Smooth Tuning" page:

When testing this tune, make sure to test it in SPORT mode, not ECO. Eco mode have hard programmed function of disabling pedal assist at low pedal pressure, this cannot be overwritten. Tune below is focused on refining SPORT mode.

So from this it would appear that which subset of the 9 PAS levels is chosen is not the only difference between Sport and Eco.

 

[PedalUma]

I am jumping in late. Sometimes a wheel magnet can be too close to a pickup.

 

[smorgasbord]

I am jumping in late. Sometimes a wheel magnet can be too close to a pickup.

Um, yeah, problem turned out to be:
1) The metal grommet over the internal wiring hole was sharp and cut into the cable.
2) This initially caused the MPH to not display, but also to have the top PAS level selected even though the display was selecting and showing lower PAS levels.
3) Playing around with different displays caused the grommet to short out a display.
4) Going back and forth with displays in trying to find the problem eventually cause the grommet to short out the Bafang Ultra controller board itself, as well as shorting out a second display.

New controller board from Luna, new Ultra wiring harness, and a new display have fixed the issue. Filing the grommet opening to not be sharp should hopefully prevent a re-lapse. So, a 10 cent piece of aluminum caused me hundreds of dollars and many dozens of hours of grief. But, all seems good now, except the new 860c display I got doesn't let you choose between Eco and Sport - and see above comment from Frey on why that matters even if you're using all 9 PAS levels.