Greta Thunberg day in NYC

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indianajo

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Greta Thunberg arrived today in NYC by the low-carbon yaucht. I wasn't there. Most of the people there are young.
Just because I'm age 69 doesn't mean I am a energy hog. I've used 4 gal gasoline this year in lawnmowers. I took a week's vacation last May , used ~ 50 gallons gas at about 45 mpg.
I use <400 KWH/month in my residence (summer) mostly to aircondition & keep my walls & pianos from molding. (I tried without once, made a mess). The electric co. says I use 75% of the electricity of an "energy efficient house" of 1200 sq ft. I use less than 125 ccf of natural gas in the dead of winter to heat my residence.
I don't support Ms Thunberg's boycott of school on Fridays to highlight the climate problem. My grandfather was forced out of school age 11 to work in the mine by the mine guards, to replace his father that "broke his neck in a fall". My grandmother worked as a maid in a boarding house to pay her way through 7th & 8th grade, the private "Hamlin Academy". That included tuition, room and board; her mother had moved away to a mine camp to follow her 2nd husband. My other grandmother was bullied out of school in 2nd grade. So when my father found a school that didn't allow bullies to afflict small diligent students, I took advantage and learned everything they would teach me. My grade point was 2nd out of 640 students. I went on to pay my way cash in advance through 4 years of college. "Free" education is a precious right not to be abused.
There should be some other climate warriors on this website: tell your story.
 
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Allthough i applaude her for the bravery to take a stand against the corporate interests, the yacht trip is or was just a publicity stunt ?
I bet that they won’t go back sailing.

How many calories were consumed on that 2 week trip ? All those foods have had an effect on the climate change . If she were to have taken the plane, she only needed a meal😉, and water.

Even so, with a plane trip , she would have had to consume calories for 2 weeks anyway, the time which was used for the sailing. This is contradicting my earlier assumption...

+ the plane would have used some energy to transport her (at a weight of say 125lb there is a expense of that expensive plane fuel) ... not sure what is the balance as far as energy used !

I’m sure Nasa can do a much more thorough insight on what is more economical- sailing or taking a plane ?

What about the energy used for the electronic devices for 2weeks ? A LOT of variables...

All the best to her and to her quest !
 
I'm saying that if indianajo is not an energy hog and he is fully aware of the climate change and its anthropogenic cause, then of course he is *not* the target of the demonstrative action of Greta.

Moreover, it's clear that the trip she did, with all the consequences (like the flights) have an additional ecological footprint, but the central point is to sensitize (?) the young generations hoping that it will bring a much larger benefit compared to the initial footprint on the long term.
 
What is the most convincing type of evidence for your belief regarding climate change ? e.g. Opinion of certain scientists, the scientific literature consensus, etc? And what IS your personal belief about it?
 
Greta Thunberg arrived today in NYC by the low-carbon yaucht. I wasn't there. Most of the people there are young.Just because I'm age 69 doesn't mean I am a energy hog. I've used 4 gal gasoline this year in lawnmowers. I took a week's vacation last May , used ~ 50 gallons gas at about 45 mpg. I use <400 KWH/month in my residence (summer) mostly to aircondition & keep my walls & pianos from molding. (I tried without once, made a mess). The electric co. says I use 75% of the electricity of an "energy efficient house" of 1200 sq ft. I use less than 125 ccf of natural gas in the dead of winter to heat my residence.

I don't support Ms Thunberg's boycott of school on Fridays to highlight the climate problem. My grandfather was forced out of school age 11 to work in the mine by the mine guards, to replace his father that "broke his neck in a fall". My grandmother worked as a maid in a boarding house to pay her way through 7th & 8th grade, the private "Hamlin Academy". That included tuition, room and board; her mother had moved away to a mine camp to follow her 2nd husband. My other grandmother was bullied out of school in 2nd grade. So when my father found a school that didn't allow bullies to afflict small diligent students, I took advantage and learned everything they would teach me. My grade point was 2nd out of 640 students. I went on to pay my way cash in advance through 4 years of college. "Free" education is a precious right not to be abused. There should be some other climate warriors on this website: tell your story.

For those who have not read the backstory... https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/28/us/greta-thunberg-new-york-landfall-scli-intl/index.html

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I agree with you about not boycotting school... education is a precious resource and should not be squandered.
 
What is the most convincing type of evidence for your belief regarding climate change ? e.g. Opinion of certain scientists, the scientific literature consensus, etc? And what IS your personal belief about it?

For me personally it is about glaciers.

I can go to a great many places in the North Cascades right out my door where thirty or even twenty years ago I would go skiing on a Labor Day weekend above the firn line on glaciers. Many of those glaciers are now gone. Some of them are still there but dramatically reduced in size. If you read a little bit that is a worldwide phenomenon -- by some estimates 99 percent of the world's glaciers are rapidly receding.

Glaciers are a good proxy for average temperatures over time, as from a geophysical standpoint what makes a glacier is having a location that has more snowfall on average than snowmelt. So if temperatures rise you will likely have less snowfall (because some of that snow will become rain, and rain doesn't make glaciers) and obviously snow melts faster with warmer temperatures.

The tiny minority of glaciers that are not receding appear to be in locations where the increased average temperatures produces more precipitation, which in the case of those lucky glaciers produces more snowfall in the accumulation zone. Whether over the long term those glaciers will continue to expand or not is a larger question.

This isn't really a question of "belief". That is the wrong word. We all can observe what is happening. Maybe we need some help getting there but the most reasonable hypothesis is that the planet is warming. It is very likely warming more rapidly than it has in all of recorded history, and possibly more rapidly than at any time in the last several million years. The most likely reason for this situation is because of human activity that is increasing the level of CO2 in the atmosphere, mainly use of fossil fuels but also industrial and agricultural activity by humans.

The effect of CO2 on climate has been well-understood for over a century.

We know that CO2 is increasing because we have observatories that have tracked atmospheric CO2 since the 1950s.

We can be pretty darned certain that the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere is mostly caused by fossil fuels, because the carbon isotope mix in atmospheric CO2 would be different if it was from a biological source and we don't have any evidence of large-scale volcanic activity(*) that could cause such a consistent and dramatic rise in CO2 levels in recent decades.

In order to argue that climate change is not happening or is not likely caused by human activity (which to my mind is about as deranged as arguing that the sky is pink, not blue) you need to argue that at least one of the previous points is not correct. If you want to argue that climate change is not happening what happened to my skiing?

(*) By "large-scale" volcanic activity I do not mean one volcano erupting. To produce the sustained and consistent CO2 increases we have seen would require a large volcanic province, like the Deccan Traps or Columbia River Basalts. Somebody would have noticed.
 
Even if you refuse to believe in GW surely you can agree that there are too many people on this planet to sustain the kind of unabashed growth that we have come to rely on. I have no idea what the solution is. I can only hope someone does.
 
The solution would be to invest massive amount of funds in research for finding livable exoplanets, warp speed rockets , BIG telescopes and really fast and other space tech. For moving billions of people easily throughout the universe.
Nobody was flying over the Oceans 100 years ago, or riding an ebike at 30mph charging it from the Sun.
 
For me personally it is about glaciers.

I can go to a great many places in the North Cascades right out my door where thirty or even twenty years ago I would go skiing on a Labor Day weekend above the firn line on glaciers. Many of those glaciers are now gone. Some of them are still there but dramatically reduced in size. If you read a little bit that is a worldwide phenomenon -- by some estimates 99 percent of the world's glaciers are rapidly receding.

Glaciers are a good proxy for average temperatures over time, as from a geophysical standpoint what makes a glacier is having a location that has more snowfall on average than snowmelt. So if temperatures rise you will likely have less snowfall (because some of that snow will become rain, and rain doesn't make glaciers) and obviously snow melts faster with warmer temperatures.

The tiny minority of glaciers that are not receding appear to be in locations where the increased average temperatures produces more precipitation, which in the case of those lucky glaciers produces more snowfall in the accumulation zone. Whether over the long term those glaciers will continue to expand or not is a larger question.

This isn't really a question of "belief". That is the wrong word. We all can observe what is happening. Maybe we need some help getting there but the most reasonable hypothesis is that the planet is warming. It is very likely warming more rapidly than it has in all of recorded history, and possibly more rapidly than at any time in the last several million years. The most likely reason for this situation is because of human activity that is increasing the level of CO2 in the atmosphere, mainly use of fossil fuels but also industrial and agricultural activity by humans.

The effect of CO2 on climate has been well-understood for over a century.

We know that CO2 is increasing because we have observatories that have tracked atmospheric CO2 since the 1950s.

We can be pretty darned certain that the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere is mostly caused by fossil fuels, because the carbon isotope mix in atmospheric CO2 would be different if it was from a biological source and we don't have any evidence of large-scale volcanic activity(*) that could cause such a consistent and dramatic rise in CO2 levels in recent decades.

In order to argue that climate change is not happening or is not likely caused by human activity (which to my mind is about as deranged as arguing that the sky is pink, not blue) you need to argue that at least one of the previous points is not correct. If you want to argue that climate change is not happening what happened to my skiing?

(*) By "large-scale" volcanic activity I do not mean one volcano erupting. To produce the sustained and consistent CO2 increases we have seen would require a large volcanic province, like the Deccan Traps or Columbia River Basalts. Somebody would have noticed.

Thank you , Mr. Coffee, for that well done, encompassing writing. It's well put together. Thank you.


(I edited my reply many times for mistakes and added things as I thought of them.)

First, I think everyone who believes that the basic science can be taken for granted, would be correct in thinking so. "Belief" is the correct word, I think. It might be thought of as a dimunition of "knowledge", but it isn't intrinsically a dimunition of knowledge, because much much more is contained in the AGW concept than simply the knowledge of the physics of radiation. Oceans disappearing relatively soon, for Earth to be like Venus, for example, is one aspect that isn't simply about basic physics. AGW belief is a big wide bundle, and beliefs DIFFER significantly about projections and predictions. Those are not knowledge.

Agreed? Neither projections nor predictions are themselves knowledge, but they are part of the bundle. Neither is trust in expert opinion, itself, knowledge. There's nothing but belief in layers. It is belief and nothing wrong with calling it what it is. I believe my doctor if he tells me what the lab saw in a test result.

So for you it's what you can see...disappearing glaciers being a prime example of a proxy for increased global temperatures.

Then there are proxies for glacier retreat, such as river sediments deposits. The variation of river and lake sediments are a proxy for the proxy for variation in temperatures. The proxy for the proxy.

What if they turned a proxy graph upside down from what they claim and recognize as right side up? Would that bother you?

It would bother me if my doctor turned my graph upside-down from the orientation that is recognized by Medicine and interpreted it opposite way from true "by accident" repeatedly. They do that. In what field of climate science? Glacier study. Hence the mention of the proxy for the proxy. They turn it upside-down when it suits them and that is often. The sediments are used upside down from the scientifically recognized orientation. A lot.

To be fair, in preliminary, here's an article that offers argument that denies in a strange way, that what I said above is true.
TEA is the original authoring of the sediment proxy record. MEA Is hockey stick Michael Mann and friends. M&M is McIntyre taking them to task.

Note that they exclaim proudly that they've proven it's false to say it's upside-down.



...before it got turned upside-down...

Now that it is established that the data in MEA input (in the ppd-file) is in same way as in TEA

>

The funniest part of all this is that some authors now use it upside-down, are sometimes ground down to finally admit fault, then forced to correct their paper, then they do the same thing on the next paper. That's all become part and parcel of the belief system, a critic could spend years getting them to admit fault which they might do while they work on more papers doing it again. Nobody reads the small correction a year later.


"disappearing ice"? First Issue: one needs to know what happened in the time BEFORE the time you were worried looking at it. For example, was it GROWING in 1960s-1970s when you were a bit younger? What if it only reached its highest recorded extent of ice in 1870? Just sayin'. Perspective is everything, in this arena.


When did AGW "kick in", due to human fuel use emissions, assuming we follow IPCC thought? Would that be a fair place to mark? 1950 or so?


Just as an aside, what do you notice that is odd about the angle of the upward slopes on this graph below, and the temperature spiking with vertical lines over the earlier part of the century from just before 1920 to 1930's if you compare the highest 30's spikes of monthly averages and the extreme angle of the slope there compared to what they wanted to highlight as drastic modern times using the line they drew on it for the 20 year modern trend? BTW, it's not from a bad site, it's from a prestigious university study, taken from NASA site. It's not fully up to date, of course. https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/ArcticIce/arctic_ice3.php

How is that possible? Why is this graph so out of tune with everything else we believe we know about arctic AGW temperatures? Guesses? Why is this graph not worrisome at all, to look at? Simply ups and downs, with more drastic and higher in the earlier part of the century before AGW kicked in?



Why did they begin a 60 year trend line right after that mountain? And why didn't NASA address this earlier BIGGER spike? In the century's graph. It's a veritable mountain of heat right there in the open to see if you study the moon itself and not the finger-pointing. Which mountain is the biggest if you're on your bike? Yet, no slope line drawn. No % per decade rise figures. No mention of the record temperature peaks of the century. Nary a word.
 

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Sorry, edited

Which rising frequency catastrophes/rare events in particular?

And what is your personal belief regarding any of it?

Thank you for your response, elect
 
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- european heatwaves supposed to be "once in 30/100 year"
- glaciers withdraw on the Alps
- snow presence on the Alps
- winter force and duration (in Hamburg the Alster lake doesnt frozen anymore since 2012, in the past -1829- was frozen up to 100 days and longer -1929-)
- in Italy and Germany exceptional raining and dry periods are becoming the norm. Italy longest river, Po, is suffering a lot. In Germany forests are starting getting hammered by fires, water is being rationed sometimes (never saw that happen since 2008). Also the nordic countried are experience always more and more forest fires.
- germinate times happening earlier and earlier than usual

just to mention few
 
Alright,thank you Elect.
Starting from the last one; germinating times getting earlier than usual.
What years or time span or era is the one you count as them behaving as usual?
 
It's interesting that villages are disclosed under the glacier retreat. I don't know particulars. I'll look for that article.

Here is a study abstract saying it was like this or warmer 8 times in the past 10,000yrs.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...uced_glacier_extent_in_the_Central_Swiss_Alps

clusters of dates provide evidence of eight phases of glacier recession: 9910-9550, 9010-7980, 7250-6500, 6170-5950, 5290-3870, 3640-3360, 2740-2620 and 1530-1170 calibrated years BP. Allowing for the timelag between climatic fluctuations, glacier response and vegetation colonization, these recession phases may lag behind climatic changes by 100-200 years{?quote]
 
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More clarity
  • Posted Oct 15, 2009 at 8:31 AM | Permalink
    Re: Mike B (#56),
    Your illustration is good. It is an important point. And it helps to make the overall point, that the sign of the regression coefficient coming out of the analysis does matter, even if the sign on the predictor going in does not.


  • 9803acf8a8615bba086c8c0923760f42
    Mike B

    Posted Oct 15, 2009 at 8:47 AM | Permalink
    Re: bender (#58),
    Absolutely, an important distinction. Thank you for clarifying better than I did.
 
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