Fazua motor updates from Eurobike | Entering the US in 2020

[Chris Nolte]

We caught up with Fazua real quick at the end of the show and we had some fun taking through how the system works. It's a really cool system for lightweight applications. We're excited that they will also be launching in the US for 2020.

 

[Seattle.jones]

I think that will be a good fit for European bikes don't see much chance here in USA.

 

[Chris Nolte]

I think that will be a good fit for European bikes don't see much chance here in USA.

Can I ask what you mean by your comment? I can assume something, but it would be good to have your thoughts.

 

[Alaskan]

I know plenty of riders here in Bellingham (not far from Seattle but still in the USA) that the Fauza system will be very well suited for. As I see it the best candidates for the Fauza are older regular road bike riders who are looking to get a little assistance to keep up with on the road bike rides they have been doing for decades. They can still keep up on the flats but are now falling further behind on the climbs. An e-road bike with light assistance is all they would need or want. They Fauza system makes for the most stealthy ebikes out there.

 

[Scott Adams]

We caught up with Fazua real quick at the end of the show and we had some fun taking through how the system works.

Thanks for sharing what you found at Eurobike, Chris.

I'm a day touring rider who likes to extend my range with a lightweight and relatively low power system. The Fazua system could work well for me.

I believe I read a rider review of Fazua which said it had a disturbing lag between starting pedalling and the onset of assist. Did you hear anything along those lines?

 

[Over50]

I think there is a niche for lightweight, lower assist systems that can allow the bike to be converted to non-electric with no great penalty in drag or weight. There isn't much in this category available in North America and this is one of the categories that is high on my shopping list. A lightweight commuter bike that is stealthy and which allows me to make the commute with mostly my effort. And if it can be ridden as a regular bike then that is a huge plus.

 

[Over50]

I think there is a niche for lightweight, lower assist systems that can allow the bike to be converted to non-electric with no great penalty in drag or weight. There isn't much in this category available in North America and this is one of the categories that is high on my shopping list. A lightweight commuter bike that is stealthy and which allows me to make the commute with mostly my effort. And if it can be ridden as a regular bike then that is a huge plus.

So speaking of this concept: forum members might recall a couple of years ago following the news of the introduction of the Budnitz Model E. There were many skeptics here of the Zeus motor/battery system. Rightly so because that bike seemed to be a failure given that Budnitz abandoned it quickly. But I just noticed there latest incarnation carries the Fazua system and it looks like a promising start towards addressing the niche demand of lightweight, stealth e-bikes:

High End Belt Drive Titanium City Bikes

The world’s best titanium bicycles. Built custom for each client using grease-free belt drives, internal gearing from Rohloff and some of the world’s best components.

budnitzbicycles.com

 

[Over50]

I used their configurator to get a price of about $4500 but the fenders I added do not show up in the picture. This price also includes an extra Fazua battery pack (says their batteries are good for 3,000 cycles). They list weight at 38 pounds however I don't know if this includes rack and fenders. So probably a bike easily in the low 40 pounds. Carbon fork, AL frame.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I can get why @Seattle.jones commented the way he did.

US primarily a car-based culture. Not like Netherlands or Denmark.

While Fazua is a great light weight system, it is still a niche market. There was a lot of excitement when Faraday was announced. It was light weight, stealthy and had a classic style to it.

The company was even bought by PON group (Gazelle, Kalkhoff owners)

Pon Holdings acquires Faraday Bicycles

ALMERE, The Netherlands (BRAIN) — Pon Holdings, owner of several bike brands including Cervélo, Gazelle, Focus and Santa Cruz, has acquired lifestyle e-bike company Faraday Bicycles. The purchase price was not disclosed.The addition of Faraday grows the Dutch conglomerate’s portfolio of e-bike...

www.bicycleretailer.com

But, last year, it was announced that Faraday is shutting down the operation. Focus and Kalkhoff leaving the US market.

The volumes just doesn't make sense. For us, who like to read about interesting product stuff, it is exciting but for the people who run the US operations, it is hard because they will have to try SUPER hard to meet the deadlines or look like crap in front of their EU counterparts when the quarterly report comes out.

Fazua is not like $2000 bike, but rather a $3500 and upwards bike. The bike Logo FS10 was announced this summer and it looks like a fully featured commuter but it is priced at $5000.

People who can spend $4000-5000 get 300whr battery would think twice and they may just pony up for Pinarello or Bianchi at this point if they want a road e-bike.

While I see this work for a very niche group of people, if I am going to spend $4000+ on a bike, I would want at least 600whr+ battery and 2 year warranty.

A similarly equipped Yamaha system has similar drag, weight but way more options, dealers, 3-yr warranty.

A niche operation run from the EU hedquarters will not be able to support 3-personnel team, sponsor their work visa and support marketing budgets for the US markets if the numbers don't make sense.

I can see how this bike might be useful in Berlin or Munich but in DC or Atlanta or Chicago... not sure.

 

[Over50]

I can get why @Seattle.jones commented the way he did.

US primarily a car-based culture. Not like Netherlands or Denmark.

While this is a great system, it is still a niche market ...

This by the way is an extremely interesting thread and the type of thread that initially drew me to EBR (besides the reviews). Someone posts a new technology or bike/brand/model and then a bunch of really knowledgeable folks intelligently debate the merits. I might have been an early adopter of that initial Budnitz Model E but I was saved from a bad decision by the intelligent voices that expressed skepticism over the Zeus AIO.

Yes, I think this Fazua implementation in these two examples (Budnitz and the Logo) would be niche bikes. But maybe by starting to grow the offerings in this niche then the current systems with larger batteries and heavier bikes might see some erosion of their sales (or rather, as the total pie continues to expand, the current systems see a lower share but no erosion of revenue). My commute is generally around 35 miles. I've gotten myself into good enough riding shape that I feel I could almost do it on a regular bike - I've been doing 1/2 commutes of about 20-22 miles on my regular bike. If my commute was 20 miles instead of 35, a 40 pound bike with lighter assist and a convertible system (convertible to regular bike) would vault to the top of my preferences. Whereas a 20 mile commute would be much more do-able to someone like me on a regular bike, it is still hard to work a 9 hour day and then face a 10 mile bike ride home (potentially with headwind). A light assist bike would tame that mid-range commute. So I think it is use-case dependent and for folks who consider themselves stronger cyclists and/or those that have a transportation need that spans shorter distances or a cleaner route (say a greenway vs traffic), I think bikes like these will hold a lot of appeal.

 

[Chris Nolte]

@Ravi i know what the sentiment of the comment was, but I don’t agree that all Americans want more power and longer range. I agree with most of your comments though, but I think there are many that just want a little assist and still want to keep the feel of a traditional bike. You know I’m a Bosch fan and I don’t stray much from that, but I really like this concept. I think the sub 40 lbs bike is a necessity for many applications, one that hasn’t been tapped too well is the urban commuter who wants to bring their bike to their walk up apartment.

Not everyone needs a long distance commuter, many just want something lightweight that looks good and can help them not get sweaty.

They will have a service provider in the US and it’s a large company. The news will be announced in November.

@Over50 I think you’re spot on. My current work commute is 2 miles each way and something like this is perfect for me. It could be really cool to have one of these on a lightweight folding bike like the Birdy. That and my Load would make my life complete.

 

[Chris Nolte]

I should also note that Faraday’s closure wasn’t due to lack of market demand. It was one of the most popular bikes in the shop, but we stopped offering it due to reliability issues.

 

[Over50]

The budnitzhas the cheap underpowered chinese fazua motor/battery.
Trek/Specialized/Giant/Bh/Yamaha/Canondale/Bulls.... no Fazua there for a Big reason.
QUALITY.
I would get a Trek Allante for 4K.

@Ebiker01, I brought our 'discussion' over to the Fazua thread so as to not further derail the thread it started on. I thought we'd just let the community decide if the Fazua is a chinese motor/battery (and therefore product). I've quoted your original advice to a newbie: "Avoid Fazua due to cheap underpowered chinese ... and that the big players don't use Fazua because of quality etc".

I responded that Fazua is a German company, not Chinese. It is a new product therefore you don't see it in many major brands. But there are a number of brands offering the motor recently in Europe. Their website lists 51 bikes. I responded that you can't judge the quality (as you did) given it is new. I wrote that the jury is out.

You responded that Fazua must have the motors etc made in China and they assemble in the EU which doesn't qualify them as EU product. You posted a video citing Fazua employees opening cardboard boxes of parts to assemble although there was no indication they were coming from China. The very same video started off describing how much they have grown their German staff adding software engineers, and electrical engineers etc. it showed an impressive staff of people. The article I link below says that 80% of the parts used are produced in Germany and they are assembled in Germany in the factory that is the subject of the article:

The new HQ in the south of Munich is home to all of the brand’s departments, with development, sales, marketing, and purchasing spread over the first and second floors, while the ground floor and basement are reserved for the production of all their motor units ... A tour of the factory reveals how they’re constantly preparing for the future: the ground floor is not only where goods enter and exit, but also where the so-called Drive Pack is assembled, which consists of a motor, battery, electronics, and casing. More than 80% of the parts used are produced in Germany.

The New Kids on the Block: A visit to FAZUA, the motor manufacturer in Munich | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine

The market for e-bike motors is in virtual lockdown by the industry giants: companies like Bosch, Shimano, and Brose have taken control, flexing their corporate muscles and channelling millions, if not billions, into R&D and production. However, this market dominance is now being challenged by...

ebike-mtb.com

In my initial response I corrected you and asked you to not post misinformation especially to a newbie trying to make a purchase decision. You also wrote that Bosch does the same (sources from China) yet you recommended Bosch powered bikes. Instead of admitting an error, you doubled-down in your assertions that Fazua is Chinese because (pure speculation) they probably bring in their motors and batteries from China. Well, I'll let the community decide. Is Fazua Chinese? German? Neither? If a company sources any parts from another country (20% for Fazua per the article) can they not be considered as a product of the country where they are headquartered and where they assemble? I'll take my lumps and admit I was wrong if most of our members responding believe or can confirm that Fazua is Chinese.

Original thread:

first ebike - 14 mi commute each way

I've been searching for days now and stumbled on this form a few times so figured maybe its worth putting my question to some experts for advice. I'm looking to spend 3000-4000$ (would happily do less if i could) to buy a class 1 commuter bike to help me commute 14 miles each way in Seattle. I'm...

electricbikereview.com

 

[Ebiker01]

@Ebiker01, I brought our 'discussion' over to the Fazua thread so as to not further derail the thread it started on. I thought we'd just let the community decide if the Fazua is a chinese motor/battery (and therefore product). I've quoted your original advice to a newbie: "Avoid Fazua due to cheap underpowered chinese ... and that the big players don't use Fazua because of quality etc".

I responded that Fazua is a German company, not Chinese. It is a new product therefore you don't see it in many major brands. But there are a number of brands offering the motor recently in Europe. Their website lists 51 bikes. I responded that you can't judge the quality (as you did) given it is new. I wrote that the jury is out.

You responded that Fazua must have the motors etc made in China and they assemble in the EU which doesn't qualify them as EU product. You posted a video citing Fazua employees opening cardboard boxes of parts to assemble although there was no indication they were coming from China. The very same video started off describing how much they have grown their German staff adding software engineers, and electrical engineers etc. it showed an impressive staff of people. The article I link below says that 80% of the parts used are produced in Germany and they are assembled in Germany in the factory that is the subject of the article:

The new HQ in the south of Munich is home to all of the brand’s departments, with development, sales, marketing, and purchasing spread over the first and second floors, while the ground floor and basement are reserved for the production of all their motor units ... A tour of the factory reveals how they’re constantly preparing for the future: the ground floor is not only where goods enter and exit, but also where the so-called Drive Pack is assembled, which consists of a motor, battery, electronics, and casing. More than 80% of the parts used are produced in Germany.

The New Kids on the Block: A visit to FAZUA, the motor manufacturer in Munich | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine

The market for e-bike motors is in virtual lockdown by the industry giants: companies like Bosch, Shimano, and Brose have taken control, flexing their corporate muscles and channelling millions, if not billions, into R&D and production. However, this market dominance is now being challenged by...

ebike-mtb.com

In my initial response I corrected you and asked you to not post misinformation especially to a newbie trying to make a purchase decision. You also wrote that Bosch does the same (sources from China) yet you recommended Bosch powered bikes. Instead of admitting an error, you doubled-down in your assertions that Fazua is Chinese because (pure speculation) they probably bring in their motors and batteries from China. Well, I'll let the community decide. Is Fazua Chinese? German? Neither? If a company sources any parts from another country (20% for Fazua per the article) can they not be considered as a product of the country where they are headquartered and where they assemble? I'll take my lumps and admit I was wrong if most of our members responding believe or can confirm that Fazua is Chinese.

Original thread:

first ebike - 14 mi commute each way

I've been searching for days now and stumbled on this form a few times so figured maybe its worth putting my question to some experts for advice. I'm looking to spend 3000-4000$ (would happily do less if i could) to buy a class 1 commuter bike to help me commute 14 miles each way in Seattle. I'm...

electricbikereview.com

I recommended the Bosch powered ebikes b/c that Bosch motor is german made. Some of their tools/devices are not made there any longer.

The Fazua system is battery+motor+BB gearbox and the small remote.

Is underpowered and anemic(250wh). In the US that is enough to go to Walmart BUT not come back.

If they mAke that motor and gearbox in I would be really surprised.
The battery pack most likely is sourced from overseas.

 

[Over50]

I recommended the Bosch powered ebikes b/c that Bosch motor is german made. Some of their tools/devices are not made there any longer.

The Fazua system is battery+motor+BB gearbox and the small remote.

Is underpowered and anemic(250wh). In the US that is enough to go to Walmart BUT not come back.

If they mAke that motor and gearbox in I would be really surprised.
The battery pack most likely is sourced from overseas.

You can't really knock it for being underpowered when that is the design intent behind the system. You can knock it if it doesn't meet its design intent. This whole discussion thread was debating the merits of a system that is as close to an analog bike as possible and which can be entirely removed to convert the bike to a regular bike. A more responsible critique would be something like "its underpowered for my purpose or preference". As opposed to telling the newbie to avoid it because it is cheap, Chinese, underpowered etc which was a completely uninformed and inaccurate response.

 

[Solom01]

Over50, I wouldn't argue about this too much. For the most part this forum is made up of people who want an ebike that does most if not all of the work for them. They buy bikes that weigh 50 pounds and up, and proceed to make them heavier by loading them up with every possible accessory. There's nothing wrong with preferring this type of transportation, but they don't seem to grasp the concept of paying more for what they consider to be less. Obviously that isn't the target market for the new category of electric assist ebikes such as the Fazua or eBikeMotion systems which are aimed at people who want the feel of a real bike, are in fairly decent shape and who want to get exercise when they ride. Take a look at some of the common questions asked here such as "can the bike handle a rider weight of over 275 pounds" or "can I modify it to go over 28mph". It would be akin to trying to convince anyone that buying a Miata or 911 makes sense when for the same or less money they could buy a hulking 6000 pound suv.

 

[Ebiker01]

You can't really knock it for being underpowered when that is the design intent behind the system. You can knock it if it doesn't meet its design intent. This whole discussion thread was debating the merits of a system that is as close to an analog bike as possible and which can be entirely removed to convert the bike to a regular bike. A more responsible critique would be something like "its underpowered for my purpose or preference". As opposed to telling the newbie to avoid it because it is cheap, Chinese, underpowered etc which was a completely uninformed and inaccurate response.

Actually Fazua you can not convert in a regular bike b/c the gearbox. You can remove the battery/motor but The gearbox/bottom bracket is proprietary and pedaling with that is not pedalling a regular bike.


You see that bottom bracket with gears on a regular bike ?




Earlier you was saying that b/c they assembled their products but not all stuff is produced there it makes it 100% german now you are saying that it can be converted in a regular ebike ALLTHOUGH the bottom bracket/gearbox remains.
That’s double standard Mr. Over50 , isn’t it ?



ANY of the regular ebikes can have their entire system removed and rode like a regular bike.

You didn’t knew that ??

Just pop out the hub wheel and install a regular 700c or 28/27.5 wheel, take battery out , and voila it’s 15-20lb lighter. Just as A REGULAR BIKE.
Controller can be taken out too, but that is xtra unnecessary work.


I suppose to swap a wheel and remove a battery is really hard for you and why not continue to spread misinformation here and lies to others as you did ?



2- Most people except the ones in the know like yourself and others would expect an ebike and this one in particular to take them far and do most of the work. And that will continue to be the case for many years.

 

[Over50]

Actually Fazua you can not convert in a regular bike b/c the gearbox. You can remove the battery/motor but The gearbox/bottom bracket is proprietary and pedaling with that is not pedalling a regular bike...
Earlier you was saying that b/c they assembled their products but not all stuff is produced there it makes it 100% german now you are saying that it can be converted in a regular ebike ALLTHOUGH the bottom bracket/gearbox remains. That’s double standard Mr. Over50 , isn’t it ?

You're like that guy in the old Tarzan movies that falls into the quicksand. The more you squirm the deeper you sink.

The bottom bracket in the Fazua system stays - the company says it operates as a normal bottom bracket/cranks. They claim no drag. I imagine there is some extra weight. But you can relieve yourself of the weight of the battery and motor if you choose by plugging in a dummy pack. Or leave the motor and battery in and pedal with the system off - per the company, and the reviews that have been posted, the system completely decouples.

I never wrote that Fazua is 100% German. You have a propensity to make stuff up. After you advised the newbie to avoid this Chinese system, I corrected you and wrote that Fazua is German per the 'About Us' section on their website. I never assigned any parts content percentage to that claim. If they say they are German I take them at their word. Am I wrong to say my Subaru is Japanese if it contains any parts that were not produced in Japan (it was manufactured in Japan)?

ANY of the regular ebikes can have their entire system removed and rode like a regular bike.
You didn’t knew that ??
Just pop out the hub wheel and install a regular 700c or 28/27.5 wheel, take battery out , and voila it’s 15-20lb lighter. Just as A REGULAR BIKE. Controller can be taken out too, but that is xtra unnecessary work.
I suppose to swap a wheel and remove a battery is really hard for you and why not continue to spread misinformation here and lies to others as you did ?

Yeah right. Let's see you try that with your hub e-bike or Bosch, Yamaha etc bike. Ride to work and then decide you want to get more exercise on your ride home. So go through all the steps you just outlined outside the office, at the bike rack. With the Fazua system, they say you can just ride with the system off or pop-in the dummy pack (put the motor and battery in your pannier or backpack) and off you go. This is what the company claims and I'm sure soon we will have some reviews here on this website to let us know if it is true.

2- Most people except the ones in the know like yourself and others would expect an ebike and this one in particular to take them far and do most of the work. And that will continue to be the case for many years.

Nice you can predict the market. Maybe, as someone else just pointed out, most Americans will continue to prefer the 60 pound bike with the heavy motor and battery because they need to haul their carcasses around at high speeds whilst doing little work. But below I've posted pics of some of Fazua-equipped bikes (per their website). Do you think the target market for this type of bike is looking for a 60 pound behemoth that will haul their 400 pounds of rider plus gear? My personal opinion (strictly opinion) is that if Fazua's system, or a like-minded competitor, proves to be reliable and lives up to its claims, then it will convert a whole new segment of current bike riders to e-bikes. A younger segment that is in better shape and who are regular analog bike riders already. I also think this would put pressure on the other players to improve their systems (lighter, quieter, less drag...). A win all the way around. But what do I know? After all, I didn't even know Fazua is a Chinese system!

Canyon:

Logo (Ravi posted an Electric Bike Report review on this one on this forum):

Cresta:

Bianchi:

 

[Ebiker01]

i won’t even bother to reply after this one to your nonsense.
Like i said is same thing:

I can take the 15lb weight off and pedal it, but people with common sense like myself never do that(i bought the ebike for the BIG motor ANd 28mph speed- This is the USA !!

That limiting with 16mph that they have in some european countries will send all those limited ebikes really fast back to China .

Or i can keep it if i want that 850watts motor power and the 725wh battery.

You keep your tiny 250wh battery and try to do 125miles with that or take the parts off. But then why buy an ebike if you want to take the battery and motor off ?????
You going to put Some tape to hide that hideous hole in the tube ?

Oh no, you can buy a dummy pack to hide it. It’s only 1$ Or maybe 100$ ? ... after all is german made.

Isn’t that called being crazy ?? Oh wait is called MARKETING GIMMICKS promoted by the corporate.

Do you buy a car and put a horse to carry it ? Or you can take the engine out and use it as a carbon free transportation with the horse.


In the USA the market for an ebike is :
- seniors
- people who need one for commuting ( need big power to haul cargo and the 175-350lb rider).


That’s it.

The younger people and the regular rider would not touch an ebike:

- b/c the rents take 50% or more from their paycheck

- they ride perfectly their regular bikes at 20mph or 25mph w/o needing any motor.

Do you know how many ebike stores are in the whole Ny ? 4 -Propel, Trek(2) and a smaller store .
And other small shops who work on delivery bikes only.

Most bike shops refuse to work on ebikes and to fix an ebike flat is 35$.


If that Bianchi with Fazua will be 8-900$ yes it can sell, at 3-4000$ MAYBE 7-9 individual buyers nationwide.

 

[vincent]

ebiker I disagree, have a friend who is not a senior and is a 2-3 times a week road and mtn biker, 3 years ago she was telling me this is exactly what she would want in an ebike

stealth and just enough help to get up the hills

just because you don't want a bike like this does not mean other people wont

this kind of bike is not for me or not for me RIGHT NOW but I am always intrigued by lighter bikes and am sure this has its place for others

and I agree with over50 hopefully it will spur more innovation and a lot of the bikes will come down in weight