Experience Thread: A noobie getting into a specialized vado 5.0 IGH

Wow. What a very long, long thread. I'll only add my initial experience, the IGH is not ready for prime time, it's a whole new way of learning how to manage your shifting (believe me, it is NOT automatic as they would lead you to believe). I tried, I did well over 600+ miles with my Vado IGH and was not happy. I had Specialized buy me out (refund the purchase), as the bike is not as advertised. Again, if so inclined, please review my previous postings. I say, stay away, unless you feel like a beta tester.
Guru: If you read the whole thread, you would have discovered Dynamics was actually very happy with his e-bike. He has even managed to achieve the entire shifting range.
Perhaps because he wants to be riding his e-bike?
 
I've ridden my "e-bikes", all of them, like you. I am super, super pleased with the NON-IGH Vado 5.0 (2022), the best bike I've ever had!
I only comment to express my disappointment with MY experience.
Others may have pleasurable experiences, I did not.
Just sayin'
 
I've ridden my "e-bikes", all of them, like you. I am super, super pleased with the NON-IGH Vado 5.0 (2022), the best bike I've ever had!
I only comment to express my disappointment with MY experience.
Others may have pleasurable experiences, I did not.
Just sayin'
Perhaps you haven't even tried to make your IGH work for you?
I'm for the derailleur system. Yet, Dynamic seems to be fully appreciating the belt drive/IGH.
 
@dynamic I'm experiencing the exact same problems with my new Vado 5.0 IGH:

- Won't ever go into the lowest "gear"
- Can't get to 28mph until you hit a cadence of 103rpm
- Crunching/gear slippage when pedaling hard after coasting at speed

The last one I think is just more of a riding style change... I just need to ease back into pedaling and stop riding it like a mountain bike or road bike (where pouring on the torque after coasting is entirely acceptable).

Also noticing that when I have the Enviolo app open on my phone, it seems to always show a 1mph higher speed than the bike's built in display. Not sure if this is related to any of the other issues, and would seem to indicate that either the Enviolio or the bike have the wrong wheel circumference configured.

What cadence gets you to 28mph now? And would you mind telling me who your LBS is so I can have mine call yours when I bring my bike in? Thanks!
 
Wow. What a very long, long thread. I'll only add my initial experience, the IGH is not ready for prime time, it's a whole new way of learning how to manage your shifting (believe me, it is NOT automatic as they would lead you to believe). I tried, I did well over 600+ miles with my Vado IGH and was not happy. I had Specialized buy me out (refund the purchase), as the bike is not as advertised. Again, if so inclined, please review my previous postings. I say, stay away, unless you feel like a beta tester.

I find the automatic to be over active if anything. Even minor changes in cadence cause the bike to react. I might try comfort mode to slow down the shifting. I believe I am over 200 miles now with nothing but the low gear issue. And that is fixed.

My only issue currently is comfort. Everything else is pretty much as expected or better.

One thing that I noticed yesterday is the size guidance on the product page and the vado docs is different possibly putting me in a different size frame. If that is the reason I am struggling so much, that will seriously piss me off.

But the automatic? Makes me love biking. As long as it stays functional.
 
- Won't ever go into the lowest "gear"
Let me try and ask the bike shop what they actually did. Hopefully tomorrow.

Can't get to 28mph until you hit a cadence of 103rpm
Currently, I am not sure. But let me just say that gps speed, bike speed and possibly enviolo speed never match. So, if I knew which one was right, I could tell you, maybe. Why maybe? Because I would need somewhere long and completely flat. Tough thing to find here. I can tell you that I hit 26mph at 75-80 rpm today (even at lower assist, I was not blasting around). I can’t say for sure it was completely flat. Honestly, if it’s not actually doing 28, I wouldn’t consider it a major issue since there is nowhere it would actually matter around me. Above 28mph is only a downhill thing.

And would you mind telling me who your LBS
Onion River Outdoors in Montpelier Vermont. Ask for Jason. He fixed it. He is the shop manager.
Crunching/gear slippage when pedaling hard after coasting at speed
I think this is just the enviolo coming back to the correct gear. The slippage is because it geared down heavily while coasting. And if you pour on the power, it sees it as high cadence and zips back to the needed gear. It’s audible and felt in the pedals. You can avoid it by always spinning up casually. Unless you have something else.

I tried for weeks to find an excuse to return the thing. Again, comfort is the only issue. And no other bike I tried got me riding this long and hard.
 
Thanks! I think if I can fix the high speed cadence issue it will be the perfect bike 🤙
Do you test with full pedal assist? There is definitely a difference around power. A *casual* 85 rpm isn’t going to do it. I will experiment with this on my ride today. I am pretty sure I poured 450 watts rider power and hit 30mph (according to a ride map). I don’t think I can produce that much rider power at cadences above 90. I also can’t do it for very long. So if you were doing a casual 120 watts rider power at 85 rpm, you would need 100% assist to get the same effect.

Higher rider power needs some resistance. I can only pull the 400-550 numbers uphill or in moderate to low assist levels on flat ground.
 
Thanks! I think if I can fix the high speed cadence issue it will be the perfect bike 🤙
So, I talked to the LBS. All he did was re-calibrate the hub while on a bike stand. And he noticed it didn't seem to work right and did it again with the app responding correctly. He also torqued down the automatic hardware itself, but he doesn't think that was actually related.

I talked to him about RPM and speed as well. And basically he said there are probably too many variables.

I used mission control for this morning's ride so you can see the results. Due to road and traffic conditions, I couldn't carefully match rpm to speed. But, you can see the trip here:


The points where I crossed 28mph I was either going downhill or around 100rpm. Not sure if it will show you the analysis. But even the "flat" areas on the graph are very gradual up and downhill grades in reality. Unfortunately, it does not track motor power or assistance level over time. So I can't tell you for sure whether I was in full assist or not at those specific points. And there is definitely some wind out there as well today. This route is the fastest flattest route I have available to me. I have done it a dozen times now. It's the only one where I stay on a local highway in the shoulder. There is nothing else that would enable flat speed here.

I have always felt that the high gear is a bit weak. But, the previous bike had 128 gear inch in top gear vs 107 here. Given what I know now, and that I could live without the lowest gear, I would consider re-gearing for a better top end so I can really zoom when I want to. But, that is how I would solve this issue. I would also shorten the cranks As I think that would solve quite a few problems from a fit perspective for me.

But, yes, this bike has never been as fast as the priority current. That's been my consistent feedback from the start. But, I am fairly sure I could make this bike as fast as the current by simply matching the sprockets to the current.

That's my ride today! It's cooler and I am wearing my hoodie. And it is awesome. Numbness was under control, but not gone.
 
Thank you for the interesting post! I've "followed" you on Strava. Now, as you have revealed your profile, can I call you by first name?
 
On the way home from the coffee shop I took a local road I have never seen before. The views were spectacular. In fact it was triggering my fear of heights a bit as I looked out over the landscape. It feels way higher from a bike (as opposed to a car). I think I might start adding pictures for these posts. It was one big moderate hill. My legs are pretty tired from yesterday's 23.2 miles so I went full on 100% assist up the hill. It's nice to have no fear of battery issues. I also ran a fair amount of 100% assist during cadence testing on the ride into town. A 2.5 mile long climb is about as long as I have done (tied for first I think). 754 feet.

It was also fairly cool. My hoodie was great, but a light pair of gloves would have been appreciated. Tomorrow it may be cold in the morning and I will start the day with actual gloves. I did realize that the gloves aren't screen friendly. Which means managing the phone will be impossible. Annoying.

BEGIN RANT

Also, why don't any of these ride tracking thingies give me a simple daily readout with the number of miles. I did 2 rides totaling 15 miles today. That's all I want to know. That info is only in strava because while RWGPS will push to strava and it's own service, mission control only links with stava (and, apparently komoot). Both RWGPS and Strava have visual comparisons of the past X days, but not the numbers. I am really getting frustrated with the state of data in cycling. First, with an advanced bike (is there a more advanced bike on the market in terms of data/connectivity?), apple watch and an iPhone, there is no way to gather heart rate from the apple watch, bike data from the bike and app data *all at the same time* without adding more devices to the mix (npe cable, viiiiva hrm, garmin edge+whatever). Then, all I want to see is the daily numbers. Strava is the only one that I can get power/cadence/bike data while using mission control. RWGPS is the only one with sensible routing and watch heart rate support (strava might have heart rate, but the routing/navigation/planning was so bad, I couldn't justify using it while on the bike). Mission control is the only one that gets bike data. Strava appears to have the best analysis/visual tools. It's 2022, data sharing is not *THAT HARD*. And specialized? Specialized has everything in place to fix this. And isn't doing it. *OH* and because I had both RWGPS and Strava linked to Apple Health, every single ride shows up twice in my fitness app on apple. Sweet. Double calorie/exercise goals. *sigh*

END RANT

Ok, so, then, now that that is out of the way, I can plan tomorrow's route. Hopefully, I will have the day off and can go all out on a long trip. Seriously thinking about ben & jerry's factory. 16.1 miles each way. And they wouldn't even be open when I got there. boo. Maybe look for some serious elevation just to see if I ever need to walk the bike.

Happy Riding!
 
Derrek,
I do understand your frustration. You have set your expectations very high; Specialized e-bikes can give you a wealth of information about your rides as long as you accept the fact they are ANT+ centric (and do not expect such connectivity from systems of many other brands).

  • For one, your Apple Watch is not ANT+ compatible. This is not Specialized fault: it is Apple's choice. I use a Polar OH-1 wrist heart rate monitor and it connects to my ANT+ devices.
  • Mission Control can only transfer the ride data to Strava. Bosch Nyon can only transfer data to Komoot.
  • More data about your ride, such as electrical motor power can be extracted from Specialized Ride app. Start the Ride App, go to Activities and you will see more ride data based on the existing MC output. You can export a .FIT file (that you can upload to RWGPS). You can probably Share the ride to RWGPS by Sharing the FIT file (I have not tried that though).
Since a Specialized e-bike is ANT+ centric, it would be smart to equip it with an universal data centre/bridge, as the Specialized system is missing several features. As you hate the idea, it is what my Wahoo ELEMNT does for me for both Vado 5.0 and Vado SL (the latter has no display!)

Once, I wrote a large post describing what an ANT+ compatible GPS bike computer can do for you. Apart of many other things, it will connect to both Vado and a compatible HR monitor, and will upload all details of your ride to both Strava and RWGPS (and to Komoot, too!) One of other benefits is both Wahoo ELEMNT and Garmin Edge allow calibrating the e-bike wheel circumference for very precise speed and distance recording based on your e-bike's rear wheel RPM and time.



1663313539399.png

Unfortunately, it is Apple that does not want a better connectivity. And Apple is far bigger than Specialized, Wahoo or Garmin are.

1663313605318.png

The data in blue (as well as the data in the top) are a combination of Vado and Polar OH-1 data as recorded on the ride.
 
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Unfortunately, it is Apple that does not want a better connectivity.
This is simply not true in this case. There are like 3 bikes in the world with ant+ (obviously an exaggeration, but also obviously not very prevalent in the industry. giant and specialized? yes?). It is not widely adopted. You know what every "connected" bike has? Bluetooth. All of them. Every. Single. One. (maybe also an exaggeration but not by much)

Why would apple put hardware into their devices that only supports a very small subset of cyclists in a subset of fitness activities that apple supports? The only reason is a very specific partnership between Apple and Specialized (or one or more of the other brands that do use ant+). Or apple actually deciding to build BikePlay and take over the cycling computer market (not worth the effort from an industry size standpoint in apple's eyes I would think). And, the argument can/should be made that apple would be better off "strong arming" manufacturers to use bluetooth so any bike features they build will work on any recent iphone or apple watch. Ant+ is not a technology that is prevalent enough to draw customers to a product simply to increase sales outside of the primary industry.

And, remember, it's not just Apple. Android can support all of this as well. It's bike manufacturers not opening up their data and using the connectivity that is already present. Keep in mind, phones that used to support ant+ *no longer do* in their current models. Example samsung galaxy s20 had it (and many earlier models). s21/s22 do not. Ant+ appears to be going the way of the headphone jack.

That leaves the question: What do I have to do to get all the data output that I can already gather? The answer appears to be: replace apple watch heart rate with something else. replace the phone with something else. Accept a substandard navigation/routing/control experience. Neither npe cable, or viiiiva hrm are readily available as far as I can see (at least not from reputable sellers). So, now I am limited to an ant+ bike computer (or watch!).

I am *not* opposed to a watch that can act as an ant+ bridge to the phone while gathering heart rate data (like viiiiva). That would work, and I could wear it as a second watch if I don't want to replace the apple watch (not sure if any of the garmin watches will do that). But, a GPS computer on the bike really should completely replace the phone. And that will be tough because, wait for it, mission control locking and tuning. I use the mission control app every day.

The technology situation on e-bikes is stupid. The sooner bike manufacturers and suppliers realize that promoting open standards will drive more people toward biking, the better it will be for everyone. They aren't Apple. They can't pull off a walled garden successfully (quite obviously. specialized doesn't even sell compatible bike computers to solve this problem). And if they could (and bosch may be trying to be a walled garden), they would need to include all the hardware to have at least all the functionality these apps and bike computers do. How is that going for bosch? Is it a good system?

Anywho, bike manufacturers need to wake up. Their industry isn't the data or technology around navigation or analysis. Their product is the bike. Open up the data. The writing is on the wall. There are fewer ways today to get the data off the bikes than there was a year or two ago. That is a very bad sign for the future of *any* technology.

"The ant+ is dead. Long live the ant+!"

Ok, done now.
 
The main weakness of Bluetooth is it only has one channel. Try to connect to your Vado from two smartphones, each running Mission Control (it will not work) . While ANT+ can serve multiple devices concurrently. ANT+ is the industry standard for sports devices. Power meter pedals for instance.

Garmin, Polar, Wahoo and plethora of other use ANT+.

And Apple Watch only works with Apple Health.
 
How is that going for bosch? Is it a good system?
Bosch currently is like Apple. A self contained system with Bluetooth connectivity only to Bosch E-Bike Connect. And it only works with Komoot.

Any Bosch connectivity is only related to their most expensive displays. Purion or Intuvia have no connectivity whatsoever.

The Specialized system is one single system working with all Specialized e-bikes disregarding display or no display. No matter my Vado 5.0 with 2020 TCD-w, my Vado SL with TCU and no display, or with your Vado IGH with Mastermind.
 
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The main weakness of Bluetooth is it only has one channel. Try to connect to your Vado from two smartphones, each running Mission Control (it will not work) . While ANT+ can serve multiple devices concurrently. ANT+ is the industry standard for sports devices. Power meter pedals for instance.
ANT+ being the right protocol for on bike communication is completely different from off bike communication. The industry is/has effectively rejected ant+ for the purpose of off bike communication. This is the difference between centralizing data and exporting data.

Garmin, Polar, Wahoo and plethora of other use ANT+.
Yes, still fewer than there were a year or two ago. It's a "standard" that is shrinking. And, some of them are *also* not sharing the data they gather via ant+ directily outside of their own ecosystems (as far as I can tell). If I went all in on ant+, bought a wahoo/garmin element/bolt/roam/edge whatever, an ant+ heart rate monitor, and wanted the heart rate to land in apple health while also going to strava and/or ridewithgps (along with the rest of the bike data), can it be done? The answer to that *may* be yes. It looks like wahoo fitness can authorize ant+ based heart rate sensor to share with RWGPS and/or Strava. While both are capable of talking to apple health, it's not clear they will take data gathered via ant+ and push it to apple health if they aren't the primary recording app. I believe this would have to be done by RWGPS, Strava, Garmin Connect or Wahoo's app. Now, strava *does* push data RWGPS pushed to Strava into Apple Health, as that is how I ended up with duplicate data. I am not sure what RWGPS would do if a wahoo device pushed data directly to the RWGPS service.

That entire paragraph is ridiculous. This is not a user experience that should exist in 2022.

And Apple Watch only works with Apple Health.

It only works with iPhones which is a bit different. All the apps on my iPhone can gather the heart rate data recorded from the watch if they so choose (most of these apps do that RWGPS certainly does when it is the primary recording app). *AND* any heart rate sensor can push data to Apple Health through their apps (directly with iphone would have to be a bluetooth heart rate sensor. think fitbit). Technically, the apps are given permission to pull/push the data to/from apple health. This is how data sharing works. And it is a shining example of how all the data from specialized or any other bike manufacturer should work. Apple didn't say "you can't have the data". They said "ask permission of the user, and if granted, here it is".

Apple's "walled garden" is more accessible than the ant+ limiting devices. That's a pretty broken situation. All because ant+ bluetooth bridge devices are few and far between. Again, a $50 npe cable should technically solve all of this in theory. And, I can't imagine that capability is not within specialized ability to produce directly on their bikes. Are they worried about pissing off wahoo/garmin? Cause it might summarily eliminate the need for any of those devices vs a phone of the user's choice.
 
As you know it all the best, there is no point for me to counter your arguments :) Suffice to say I have all the ride data I need since May 2022 when my Vado was equipped in TCD-w. I use the same equipment and software for my both Specialized e-bikes and miss no data.

The only argument worth countering is that maybe only two or three e-bike brands have ANT+ (so it is not popular, you say). Wrong. It is only two or three brands that have the full connectivity. Because other brands either don't care or cannot do it. Does you Priority have any connectivity?
 
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