Espin Flow pedal assist power levels

[peakay]

Yes, I was riding my new Ride1Up 700 today, and I was testing various PAS settings and the throttle today.

Hey you finally bought a bike! Now I can regard your comments with credibility.

My understanding is the 21 Espins can also be programmed now. I have one on order and will report on it when i can verify.

Is the quality OK on your 700? I was going to buy a used one from a friend, but the wheels made tons of bad noises due to loose spokes and it overall had some quality issues. probably a one-off, but he had it professionally built by someone I know and trust, so i was a little surprise by all the bugs.

 

[GenXrider]

Hey you finally bought a bike! Now I can regard your comments with credibility.

My understanding is the 21 Espins can also be programmed now. I have one on order and will report on it when i can verify.

Is the quality OK on your 700? I was going to buy a used one from a friend, but the wheels made tons of bad noises due to loose spokes and it overall had some quality issues. probably a one-off, but he had it professionally built by someone I know and trust, so i was a little surprise by all the bugs.

I would like to see some evidence of that for adjusting the assist levels on the Espin as opposed to the number of assist levels. Someone on here mentioned that you could already do that for last year's Sport, but the manual made no mention of it, and come to find out, it didn't use power/current based assist and used speed based assist. The old Ride1Up 700's were the same - glad they changed from the speed based PAS. If Espin has move away from speed based PAS and added power adjustments, that would be great, but I'm skeptical at this point.

I only had 4 decent (yet very windy at times) days for riding before the weather turned cooler, so I only have 75 miles on it so far. The initial battery charge has dropped from 51.5 to 44 V, so I'm about to charge it for the first time. I haven't run into any quality issues yet as far as performance or noise. No wheel wobble. I know some people have had spoke noises and needed to tighten them up, but that hasn't been a problem for me. The chain hasn't fallen off, but I'm almost always riding in the higher gears, dropping as low as 3 on a steep hill. I did hear some alarming loud noises intermittently that sounded pretty nasty, and I found out they were being caused by the tires picking up some pebbles which then hit the metal fender(s). It happened the most on a freshly worked on street with oil and pebble gravel spread on it. It's only been occasional since then. I've been riding my hybrid and mountain bikes with no fenders over the last 20+ years, so I hadn't heard that sound anytime recently.

Depending on how old that used 700 is that you looked at, it might be using the old speed based PAS system. More on that here:

A comparison between the Limited and the 700

I bought a R1U 700 in March of 2020, which got delivered in June 2020. Overall, its a good bike but I feel like I don't do any work at all when pedaling. I also wanted a second ebike, so that I could leave one at my place in FL, and decided to get a bike with a torque sensor. I also purchased...

electricbikereview.com

Also, some older ones had a different display that didn't allow power adjustments, not all had an adjustable stem, and only the more recent shipments have the kickstand mounted toward the rear.

 

[BigNerd]

Because my non ebike is in the shop, I've been riding my Sport more often and I can definitely confirm that the cadence sensor indeed controls power output to the motor based on pedal speed.

My friend recently got another brand rear-hub bike and he confirmed the same thing. The slower he pedals, the more power the motor gets. He was confused because he thought if he pedaled faster he would get more PAS but now he slows his cadence to increase his ebike speed. His bike uses the Mahle ebikemotion X35 rear hub system.

I actually got to ride my friend’s bike for a 2 hour ride and it’s different from the Sport. I believe it’s the power based system as pedaling cadence really did not affect power output.

In PAS 1 the power stayed the same no matter how fast I was going or how fast/slow I was pedaling. Same with the other PAS levels.

To me, that’s not ideal as it runs the power out quicker because it doesn’t adjust based on your actual pedal cadence or speed.

In my opinion, there is better power control with a true cadence sensor, slow your pedaling, more power from the motor... need more power at a certain speed, change the PAS. I was actually going to buy his bike because it’s much lighter than the Sport but after riding it, I much prefer the setup of the Sport.

 

[GenXrider]

To me, that’s not ideal as it runs the power out quicker because it doesn’t adjust based on your actual pedal cadence or speed.

Definitely not seeing that on my 700. I went 75 miles or so before I charged it the first time, and I went from about 80% charge to start with and only let it drop to about 30%. It preserves power by not automatically applying high power when taking off and when going up hills. Instead it applies the power I tell it to so that I can pedal and get great exercise.

If you decide you rather get more exercise than ghost pedaling along on the Espin, you should follow up with Al about getting a different controller since he replaced the one on his Espin.

 

[BigNerd]

@GenXrider:

It's just a matter of preference. I'm not surprised you prefer your ebike's system over others. In fact, I would be shocked if you didn't like your 700.

But having compared the two systems in real life, I favor how the Espin works because I can vary power output based on pedaling cadence, not just by gearing or changing PAS level.

I don't "ghost pedal" on my Espin... in fact I probably get more exercise because if I stay in PAS 1 and exceed the 10mph speed limit my motor is only putting out nominal power whereas your PAS 1 is still putting out full percentage of power (based on what you have said).

In the end... we are all enjoying our ebikes so that's all that matters.

Do you know if the Core 5 has the same system? I'm thinking about it for my N+1 but if it's not cadence based... I'm less inclined to do so. Maybe I'll let my friend get his first and test it. Also thinking about an Aventon Pace 500 (esp now that they changed their controller) because I can support a local store by buying from them rather than over the Internet.

 

[GenXrider]

@GenXrider:

It's just a matter of preference. I'm not surprised you prefer your ebike's system over others. In fact, I would be shocked if you didn't like your 700.

But having compared the two systems in real life, I favor how the Espin works because I can vary power output based on pedaling cadence, not just by gearing or changing PAS level.

I don't "ghost pedal" on my Espin... in fact I probably get more exercise because if I stay in PAS 1 and exceed the 10mph speed limit my motor is only putting out nominal power whereas your PAS 1 is still putting out full percentage of power (based on what you have said).

In the end... we are all enjoying our ebikes so that's all that matters.

Do you know if the Core 5 has the same system? I'm thinking about it for my N+1 but if it's not cadence based... I'm less inclined to do so. Maybe I'll let my friend get his first and test it. Also thinking about an Aventon Pace 500 (esp now that they changed their controller) because I can support a local store by buying from them rather than over the Internet.

Yeah, the Core-5 is a cadence sensor based bike just like the 700 series and uses current/power based assist rather than the speed based cruise control type of system. The power levels can be customized also, but the display is different. I thought about getting a Core-5 as a backup, but I'm likely going to hold off on getting a second e-bike for now and just stick with my standard Trek bike as my backup/alternative, which I will still ride part of the time. I might end up going mid-drive torque sensor based next time.

I have my 700 set to 5% in PAS 1 which shows 30 to 32 watts on the power meter depending on the battery power. That's when pedaling (at any speed/gear) without throttle. I'm using PAS 0 on level ground a lot, especially with tailwinds. On PAS 2, it shows about 64 watts. I'm always pedaling with force, so it never feels like I'm being pushed out of the gate like the Espin does, especially on hills where I'm pedaling with the most force because the 700 doesn't automatically crank up the power on a hill like a cruise control the way the Espin does with it speed based PAS which you have described in detail, which wastes too much power. With the way Ride1Up handles how power works combined with my riding habits, the battery looks like it's going to last well for my longest rides I'm likely to take this summer, which neared 70 miles last year on a standard bike.

 

[BigNerd]

I have my 700 set to 5% in PAS 1 which shows 30 to 32 watts on the power meter depending on the battery power. That's when pedaling (at any speed/gear) without throttle. I'm using PAS 0 on level ground a lot, especially with tailwinds. On PAS 2, it shows about 64 watts. I'm always pedaling with force, so it never feels like I'm being pushed out of the gate like the Espin does, especially on hills where I'm pedaling with the most force because the 700 doesn't automatically crank up the power on a hill like a cruise control the way the Espin does with it speed based PAS which you have described in detail, which wastes too much power. With the way Ride1Up handles how power works combined with my riding habits, the battery looks like it's going to last well for my longest rides I'm likely to take this summer, which neared 70 miles last year on a standard bike.

Again, I don't think you can criticize what the Espin "does" without ever having rode one and basing your opinion on what you read isn't really the same. I don't think you've ever ridden a true cadence controlled ebike so I think it's very hard to explain how it works to you.

The logic is simple, if your R1U is always putting out 5% or 10% or whatever in any PAS level, that is inefficient and actually doesn't mimic how most people ride. It's like gearing, if the current gear you are in is too slow, you gear up... or if it's too hard, you gear down, that's similar to what cadence sensing PAS does based on how fast your are pedaling (which in a way you can draw a comparison to torque sensors). The other ebike I have ridden is I believe what you call "power-based" and I didn't like it. My friend (who owns that other ebike) actually prefers the way my Espin rides because we both went up the same hill and he has to crank his up to PAS 3 (max on his bike) in order to get the power he needs where with mine he just has to keep it in PAS 1 or 2 and slow his cadence to get more power out of the motor.

Unfortunately, this may prohibit my purchase of the Core-5 because if it's how you describe it, I won't like it and I don't want to go through the hassle of a return. I have a local dealer who sells Aventon but the Pace 500 is more than the Core-5 (some better features) but in the same weight range so I can test how that system is. My other riding buddy may get the Core-5 so maybe I'll see how his is.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying any system is generally better than the other (which you seem to imply whenever I see you post about Espin)... in my opinion, the Espin just gives *me* better control based on a combination of gears, PAS and pedal cadence.

 

[GenXrider]

Again, I don't think you can criticize what the Espin "does" without ever having rode one and basing your opinion on what you read isn't really the same. I don't think you've ever ridden a true cadence controlled ebike so I think it's very hard to explain how it works to you.

The logic is simple, if your R1U is always putting out 5% or 10% or whatever in any PAS level, that is inefficient and actually doesn't mimic how most people ride. It's like gearing, if the current gear you are in is too slow, you gear up... or if it's too hard, you gear down, that's similar to what cadence sensing PAS does based on how fast your are pedaling (which in a way you can draw a comparison to torque sensors). The other ebike I have ridden is I believe what you call "power-based" and I didn't like it. My friend (who owns that other ebike) actually prefers the way my Espin rides because we both went up the same hill and he has to crank his up to PAS 3 (max on his bike) in order to get the power he needs where with mine he just has to keep it in PAS 1 or 2 and slow his cadence to get more power out of the motor.

Unfortunately, this may prohibit my purchase of the Core-5 because if it's how you describe it, I won't like it and I don't want to go through the hassle of a return. I have a local dealer who sells Aventon but the Pace 500 is more than the Core-5 (some better features) but in the same weight range so I can test how that system is. My other riding buddy may get the Core-5 so maybe I'll see how his is.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying any system is generally better than the other (which you seem to imply whenever I see you post about Espin)... in my opinion, the Espin just gives *me* better control based on a combination of gears, PAS and pedal cadence.

You're conflating assist power with gears, as many beginners do, and they are not at all the same, and even more different when it comes to hub motor bikes because power is not delivered through the drive chain and gears. The power based assist is very efficient in only providing the amount of power you want rather than juicing it up automatically trying to maintain speed up hills and running down your battery quickly.

The older 700's used to work like the Espin, increasing power going up hills automatically and cutting power when trying to pedal faster than a specific speed. Someone reviewed his older 700 in a recent thread here complaining about that exact thing. I gave him the good news that the 700 no longer works that way because Ride1Up changed to the power based assist which allows you to pedal as much as you want without it feeling like you're dragging a boat anchor from power dropping off. I can confirm that is true - no longer limited by speed. Kevin from Ride1Up said he prefers the power based assist and is why he switched to it, as he stated in an interview I posted when discussing this with you before. A recent Espin buyer disliked the Espin PAS system so much that he immediately ripped out the provided controller in his new Flow and put in an after market controller that functions like the Ride1Up, and he likes it much better now. You might be the one exception who says he prefers the speed based cruise control type of assist. That is fine of course - I'm glad you like your bike. But, I just like to make people aware of this since most people do not prefer that type of PAS. And if they do, as you do, then it won't stop them from buying an Espin. At least they know what they are in for. And there's a third party controller that will fix the issue if you don't like it.

 

[GenXrider]

If you get an Aventon, you better give it a good test to see if it operates as you want it to. I haven't seen good definitive descriptions of the operation that convince me either way, especially with the new controller. Someone said it seems speed based, but I'm not entirely convinced with that short answer.

 

[BigNerd]

Just because @AHicks changed his controller doesn’t mean it’s bad for everyone else. There are plenty of satisfied users in this Espin forum. @Taylor57 even bought a second one.

You keep harping on this speed thing as if it’s bad but it’s very easy to just go up another PAS level. And the power isn’t exactly cut, once you are reaching the limit of each PAS, the power output has already been reduced so it puts out nominal power. You take a few complaints about “speed based” systems and make claims that “most people don’t like that kind of PAS”.

Most people don’t like their chain dropping either (which is more factual) but I’m not telling everyone in the R1U forums about that.

it’s almost like your Kevin’s best friend the way you talk about him.

And I think my opinion is in line with “most” considering there are more people NOT ripping out their controllers.

I would go into how your whole power waste theory is flawed but I realize that you will not see my side so let’s just leave it at that.

Enjoy your R1U and let us Espin owners enjoy ours.

 

[Urvaksh]

Just because @AHicks changed his controller doesn’t mean it’s bad for everyone else. There are plenty of satisfied users in this Espin forum. @Taylor57 even bought a second one.

You keep harping on this speed thing as if it’s bad but it’s very easy to just go up another PAS level. And the power isn’t exactly cut, once you are reaching the limit of each PAS, the power output has already been reduced so it puts out nominal power. You take a few complaints about “speed based” systems and make claims that “most people don’t like that kind of PAS”.

Most people don’t like their chain dropping either (which is more factual) but I’m not telling everyone in the R1U forums about that.

it’s almost like your Kevin’s best friend the way you talk about him.

And I think my opinion is in line with “most” considering there are more people NOT ripping out their controllers.

I would go into how your whole power waste theory is flawed but I realize that you will not see my side so let’s just leave it at that.

Enjoy your R1U and let us Espin owners enjoy ours.

i blocked that clown a month ago. he's a time sink. i don't see GenXrider's nonsense anymore, but i still see responses to his nonsense.

 

[PatriciaK]

i blocked that clown a month ago. he's a time sink. i don't see GenXrider's nonsense anymore, but i still see responses to his nonsense.

Me, too! One of the two blocks that have been the best moves I've made here in the forums .

 

[GenXrider]

Just because @AHicks changed his controller doesn’t mean it’s bad for everyone else. There are plenty of satisfied users in this Espin forum. @Taylor57 even bought a second one.

You keep harping on this speed thing as if it’s bad but it’s very easy to just go up another PAS level. And the power isn’t exactly cut, once you are reaching the limit of each PAS, the power output has already been reduced so it puts out nominal power. You take a few complaints about “speed based” systems and make claims that “most people don’t like that kind of PAS”.

Most people don’t like their chain dropping either (which is more factual) but I’m not telling everyone in the R1U forums about that.

it’s almost like your Kevin’s best friend the way you talk about him.

And I think my opinion is in line with “most” considering there are more people NOT ripping out their controllers.

I would go into how your whole power waste theory is flawed but I realize that you will not see my side so let’s just leave it at that.

Enjoy your R1U and let us Espin owners enjoy ours.

Most complaints I see about cadence PAS seem to be relevant to the speed based PAS systems.

I've never had my chain fall off on my Ride1Up, and neither have various other owners that I've asked about it. I've only seen the topic come up once this year in the Ride1Up group, so it appears to be a rare thing. Maybe it was just a rare problem with an an older generation model and is even more uncommon now.

I mentioned Kevin because he is the owner of the company, gets a lot of feedback on the bikes, and specifically stated in an interview that they moved from speed to current/power based assist to improve the ride.
https://youtu.be/9tFylNSFmCM?t=1331

And again, I said that I'm glad you like your bike and that people who prefer that type of speed based pedal assist system won't stop buying it just because I brought it to their attention.

By the way, I'm getting amazing range on my Ride1Up 700 because it only uses the power I choose to use, and it doesn't crank up the power when first accelerating or going up hills. Very happy with it. I hope you feel the same about your Espin.

 

[BigNerd]

By the way, I'm getting amazing range on my Ride1Up 700 because it only uses the power I choose to use, and it doesn't crank up the power when first accelerating or going up hills. Very happy with it. I hope you feel the same about your Espin.

I don't know how true this statement is. If the R1U is full power as soon as you pedal (what you call the on/off cadence sensor), then you will get full acceleration and power no matter how fast or slow you pedal... not sure how that isn't a waste of power or "cranking the power when first accelerating".

The Espin system ramps up the power, to a certain percentage based on the PAS, based on the cadence speed of your pedaling. You keep misstating what people are saying.

And as for the chain drop on an R1U, there was more than one person who mentioned it on EBR. And yes, it's probably not a problem anymore but you don't see people bringing it up constantly in the R1U forum or any other brand forum.

For someone who says you have nothing against Espin, why do you post so much misinformed negativity about them? So much that other members have put you on their ignore list.

And we know who Kevin is... I think you've posted his video like 73 times. I just don't get why you spend so much time talking about a bike you've never owned or ridden. It's crazy.

 

[GenXrider]

If the R1U is full power as soon as you pedal (what you call the on/off cadence sensor), then you will get full acceleration and power no matter how fast or slow you pedal...

If??? The answer is... "it doesn't", unless you configure it to do so. When I'm riding with PAS enabled in PAS 1 or 2, which is as high as I am riding most of the time, the bike gives 30 to 64 watts of power when I start to pedal, never full power, and as I continue to pedal, the power remains the same, and when I ride up hills, the power remains 30 to 64 watts unless I choose to increase the power, which I will do on big hills.

I won't bother commenting on the Espin since you take it too personally when I'm just discussing the differences. Thanks for sharing all your info about how the PAS on your Sport worked though.

 

[Bubsdaddy]

My son bought a Ride1up 500 and received and assembled it yesterday. I rode it for a few minutes and there is a difference in how the PAS works compared to my Flow. The Ride1up is a gentler acceleration when switching from 0 PAS to 1 - it ramps up slower than my Flow. They both accelerate about the same when using throttle.

 

[GenXrider]

My son bought a Ride1up 500 and received and assembled it yesterday. I rode it for a few minutes and there is a difference in how the PAS works compared to my Flow. The Ride1up is a gentler acceleration when switching from 0 PAS to 1 - it ramps up slower than my Flow. They both accelerate about the same when using throttle.

I'll add the the Ride1Up 500 PAS levels are each individually adjustable if you want less or more power in a given PAS level, plus there are different ranges you can use, such as 0-5, 0-9, 1-9. On the 700, and I expect 500 also, each range will retain its own settings, except that the 0-x and 1-x will match at each level, meaning level 1 may be set to 7% in level 1 for 0-9, and it will also be 7% in level 1 for 1-9, but 1-5 can be set differently.

 

[PatriciaK]

My son bought a Ride1up 500 and received and assembled it yesterday. I rode it for a few minutes and there is a difference in how the PAS works compared to my Flow. The Ride1up is a gentler acceleration when switching from 0 PAS to 1 - it ramps up slower than my Flow. They both accelerate about the same when using throttle.

My 21 Flow accelerates gradually - enough so that I've just been leaving it in PAS1 when the bike is on. I think there's a difference in the 21 controller, but, not owning an older version, can't say for sure. I love the way the PAS works on the Flow !

 

[Bubsdaddy]

There probably is a difference. Is your display color? Mine is the 2020. I’m fine with how the PAS works but I did notice a difference between my flow and the 500.

 

[PatriciaK]

There probably is a difference. Is your display color? Mine is the 2020. I’m fine with how the PAS works but I did notice a difference between my flow and the 500.

Yep, color display...