PatriciaK
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Part of me thinks it all comes down to the parents.
Encinitas City Council declares emergency for e-bikes, bicycles
- Thread starter Jeremy McCreary
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None
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Education at schools about traffic safety & laws should be implemented, from childhood all the way to high school.
In many countries around the world, cycling and traffic laws are part of curriculum required for their schools. Cycling should be like a life long skill that everyone should know, like swimming.. or maybe even math.
I feel that in America, most drivers think bicycles & motorcycles don't belong on public roads, which is a mentality that's been imbedded across decades of car culture and cheap oil in America.
As a teenager (in the 80's), I pedaled across the N American Continent from Seattle, WA to Ocean City, MD, on a Huffy 10-speed packed with 35-40 lb. of camping gear.
Long before the time of cell phones & GPS. The slower pace gave me the chance to see America at 15-20 mph and how Americans really lived along the way.
Nowadays, I don't think most people in America even bother to try to understand how the rest of the country live. More over when homeless people in the streets are considered to be criminals and the real criminals getting government bailouts, tax breaks & tax write-offs for private jets or yachts.
Meanwhile, I still think parents should also be held accountable when their child is caught breaking traffic laws, causing accidents on high-seed e-bikes. If they can afford high cost, high speed e-bikes to for their children, they can also afford higher (x5 or x10) auto insurance premiums.
In many countries around the world, cycling and traffic laws are part of curriculum required for their schools. Cycling should be like a life long skill that everyone should know, like swimming.. or maybe even math.
I feel that in America, most drivers think bicycles & motorcycles don't belong on public roads, which is a mentality that's been imbedded across decades of car culture and cheap oil in America.
As a teenager (in the 80's), I pedaled across the N American Continent from Seattle, WA to Ocean City, MD, on a Huffy 10-speed packed with 35-40 lb. of camping gear.
Long before the time of cell phones & GPS. The slower pace gave me the chance to see America at 15-20 mph and how Americans really lived along the way.
Nowadays, I don't think most people in America even bother to try to understand how the rest of the country live. More over when homeless people in the streets are considered to be criminals and the real criminals getting government bailouts, tax breaks & tax write-offs for private jets or yachts.
Meanwhile, I still think parents should also be held accountable when their child is caught breaking traffic laws, causing accidents on high-seed e-bikes. If they can afford high cost, high speed e-bikes to for their children, they can also afford higher (x5 or x10) auto insurance premiums.
Jeremy McCreary
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Couldn't agree more about that first example, but make no mistake, lots of kids and adults doing stupid things on ebikes around here. And most of them wouldn't be on a bike at all if they had to pedal.
I'm by no means anti-throttle. I use mine for short bursts of speed daily, and my knees would really hate to part with it. But no denying that throttles attract untrained/irresponsible riders — exactly the kind responsible for most of the negative ebike publicity.
Moreover, the relevant physics can't be ignored. Ebikes are generally heavier and faster than their unmotorized counterparts — a bad combination WRT brake adequacy and the kinetic energy carried into a collision. Since the speed is squared in kinetic energy, speed restrictions make a lot sense WRT to injury mitigation. When a kid's thrown from an ebike at speed, they carry less mass but the same square of speed the bike had moments before. Not good for either the kid or the pedestrian they fly into.
The NYT article mentioned a pending California state bill (AB 530, I think) requiring training for kids on ebikes. My state representative wrote it, and I fully support it.
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Rexlion
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Did you notice that those articles tell how beneficial immigrants in general are, but do not address the more specific category of undocumented immigrants?In case you didn't know, undocumented immigrants are the backbone of America's workforce & economy, modern day slavery.
4 myths about how immigrants affect the U.S. economy
President Donald Trump’s characterization of immigrants, as people who are a drain public resources, is not backed by the data.www.pbs.org
I doubt ebikes contribute much in consumer taxes once imported into the US.
I say immigrants are great, let 'em come, but let's make sure they're documented and also a bit vetted. It would reduce that slavery you mention (which shows up in substandard wages but also in human trafficking). Reduce the crime rate by keeping the more obvious criminals out. Reduce the flow of narcotics. Reduce the financial assistance to cartels (they are getting rich charging several thousand dollars per head to have their coyotes guide people across our border illegally). Help the immigrants enter with a sense of pride and accomplishment at having come in the right way. Give them the papers they need to get better jobs, get their kids enrolled in school, etc. Isn't that better than having people risk their safety by crossing in dangerous ways & places, after which they must feel ashamed and worried about whether they'll be taken advantage of here?
Of course, accomplishing this would require 535 people on the east coast to get their thumbs out of their backsides and pass meaningful immigration reform. The odds aren't good....
None
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The New York Times attacks e-bikes while ignoring the real danger all around us
https://electrek.co/2023/07/30/the-new-york-times-attacks-e-bikes-while-ignoring-car-danger/
Every crash in this story involves a e-bike colliding with a motor vehicle.
All could’ve been avoided if e-bike riders were protected from cars (or if there were no cars).
Fight the real enemy.
https://t.co/POH4IM68Xf
— David Zipper (@DavidZipper) July 29, 2023
“By various measures, the risks of serious injury and death rise sharply at around 20 m.p.h.,
although much of that research involved collisions between cars and pedestrians.
For instance, the risk of severe injury to a pedestrian is 25 percent when the car is moving at 16 m.p.h.,
and it rises to 50 percent at 23 m.p.h., according to the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety.”
https://electrek.co/2023/07/30/the-new-york-times-attacks-e-bikes-while-ignoring-car-danger/
Every crash in this story involves a e-bike colliding with a motor vehicle.
All could’ve been avoided if e-bike riders were protected from cars (or if there were no cars).
Fight the real enemy.
https://t.co/POH4IM68Xf
— David Zipper (@DavidZipper) July 29, 2023
“By various measures, the risks of serious injury and death rise sharply at around 20 m.p.h.,
although much of that research involved collisions between cars and pedestrians.
For instance, the risk of severe injury to a pedestrian is 25 percent when the car is moving at 16 m.p.h.,
and it rises to 50 percent at 23 m.p.h., according to the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety.”
mschwett
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physics is a cold hearted mistress. swerving and hitting a curb or parked car at 10mph is a completely different situation than hitting it at 20. four times the energy. unfortunately there aren’t too many situations where higher speeds of the bicycle mean safety - although there are a few. far more often, the ease of getting up to speed on an e-bike means a kid can get into a more dangerous situation more easily. AB 530 is ok, i guess, but IMO children should not be allowed to ride ebikes by themselves. i’m actually kind of surprised they are.
Jeremy McCreary
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- Carlsbad, CA
Too late for that in coastal north San Diego County, I'm afraid. A good half of all the ebikes I see here — and I see many everyday — seem to be little more than cheap, easy transportation with no operator's license, minimum age, or registration requirement.
Little surprise, then, that many kids here now ebike themselves everywhere — to school, to activities, to the beach, to hangouts, etc. Few parents in sight. And the kids are probably as happy about that as the parents are not to be driving. Come to downtown Carlsbad when school lets out, and you'll see what I mean.
The terrain here gets hilly in a hurry as you head inland to the main residential areas. For parents and kids who view ebikes mainly as kid transportation, machines that can be throttled around or ghost-pedaled with minimal effort are clearly the transportation of choice. The ongoing explosion of kids on bikes would never have happened if real effort were required.
Please don't get me wrong: I want ebikes to succeed as car substitutes. As long as someone rides safely, responsibly, and courteously, they can ride any ebike for any reason they want — with or without effort.
I think a lot of the pushback on AB 530 will come from parents who like having self-propelled kids — no matter how much safety sense the law might make. No doubt, some have tried to teach their kids to ride safely, but I'm quite sure that many have not. Come to downtown Carlsbad when school lets out, and you'll see what I mean. Leaving ebike safety training to parents has clearly failed.
Then there's the small matter of compliance. Do the parent-trained kids really ride as trained when their parents aren't around? When under peer pressure to do stupid things? Odds are low on both counts. Come to downtown Carlsbad....
Maybe our excellent bike infrastructure has lured parents into thinking that their kids are safe on ebikes without supervision. Maybe they think that everyone else will look out for their little ebikers. Who knows what they're thinking??
The beauty of AB 530 is that it (a) takes the long-overdue safety training out of parents' hands, and (b) simplifies enforcement. If a kid's caught without a training certificate, the family's accountable. If he's caught running a light with a certificate, can't say no one told him.
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tomjasz
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Yeah right let's give parents a pass and not hold them responsible and create more laws. Jesus Crisps The every problem can be fixed with a rule/law attitude is so Californian...
In my healthy years I could easily pedal my Paramount at 25-30MPH. How are the same speeds with an eBike more dangerous?
In my healthy years I could easily pedal my Paramount at 25-30MPH. How are the same speeds with an eBike more dangerous?
Stefan Mikes
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On a throttle, of course?
Not.
The difference is e-bikes are heavy and can achieve high speed effortlessly.
tomjasz
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WTF are you on about now? Make my day PLEASE make room for me in your ignore list.
You really think getting hit by an acoustic at 30MPH is gonna hurt less. God what a putz!
PatriciaK
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I think you're wrong on this one, Tom... Weight absolutely does matter when crashing into someone. And, parents are obviously not being responsible here. Someone has to protect the public, and since community values and parental responsibility aren't up to the task, it becomes the government's job.
Also, perhaps you and Stefan can BOTH put each other in your OWN ignore lists, since you seem to set each other off so easily
.
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Stefan Mikes
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Tom is on my Ignore list. Only I sometimes check what stupid he said this timeAlso, perhaps you and Stefan can BOTH put each other in your OWN ignore lists, since you seem to set each other off so easily
Actually I was hit by a roadie zooming a bike path on a lightweight bike and still can ride and talk
PatriciaK
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Stop looking - it never turns out well!Tom is on my Ignore list. Only I sometimes check what stupid he said this time
Actually I was hit by a roadie zooming a bike path on a lightweight bike and still can ride and talk
tomjasz
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yes dear you certainly are
mschwett
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well, sure. adults weigh from 100 to 300+lb.
human bodies are generally soft though, and they move and deform to get out of the way / minimize impact whenever possible.
an e-bike battery weighs, say, 10lb. drop one on your foot from 15 feet. it will be going 20mph when it hits you. result : broken foot.
repeat with a 10lb cat. result? annoyed cat, maybe some scratches.
at some point, the damage and injury is caused by the heavy, fast moving, inanimate metal and plastic object slamming into you. at 28mph the energy of an 80lb e-bike is not insignificant, certainly orders of magnitude more than, say, your 300lb man jogging along the MUP.
mschwett
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depends on the nature of the crash, for sure. people often fall of bikes or at the least become somewhat decoupled when attempting to evade…
None
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Why more teenagers should ride electric bikes
electrek.co
Why more teenagers should ride electric bikes
The debate around whether teenagers should be riding electric bikes is hotly contested, but there are some undeniable truths.
electrek.co
Rexlion
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This writer caused me to remember that I, too, "once spent an entire seven years in a row as a teenager." I totally agree, we should encourage teens to ride our ebikes. I would be extremely happy to share my ebike with some teenage girl. We could take turns: I pedal for a while as she holds her arms around me, and then we switch places for a while...Why more teenagers should ride electric bikes
Why more teenagers should ride electric bikes
The debate around whether teenagers should be riding electric bikes is hotly contested, but there are some undeniable truths.
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