EBR made me do it! (new Vado SL 5.0 EQ)

CORRECTION: Early in this thread, I referred several times to a 30-day "100% satisfaction guarantee" with full refund. Turns out I was totally misinformed by an LBS employee on this matter.

The full refund applies only to unused and unmodified bikes. Ultimately had to decide to keep or not based on a 5-mile test ride on a long, moderate hill near the shop. Fortunately, that was enough.

Sorry for any confusion.
 
This is like with cars or motorbikes, isn't it?

Almost unrelated but I have a little bit of a grudge against CentrumRowerowe.pl. Once, I ordered "waterproof bibs" in a promised very large size there (they were not cheap!) Upon unpacking, I clearly saw those bibs were not waterproof at all. I had to try the bibs on anyway. Once done, I realized those "XXL" bibs were absolutely too small. So I returned them, as there is a clear legal rule you can return any item bought online in a good shape in a specified amount of time.

CR has denied the full return of money. They said the bibs "got stained" in the process, so I could be compensated with 1/5 of the money or would need to accept the shipment! The online store even didn't comment the "waterproof" matter!

I still keep the bibs in an unpacked envelope. Either I give it to someone, or use it for rags! I will never buy any cycling clothes at CR.pl! They even do not let people try clothes on in their physical store!
 
Jeremy McCreary said:
CORRECTION: Early in this thread, I referred several times to a 30-day "100% satisfaction guarantee" with full refund. Turns out I was totally misinformed by an LBS employee on this matter.

The full refund applies only to unused and unmodified bikes. Ultimately had to decide to keep or not based on a 5-mile test ride on a long, moderate hill near the shop. Fortunately, that was enough.

Sorry for any confusion.
Click to expand...
That was worth clearing up!
Good on ya mate!
 
Jeremy McCreary said:
CORRECTION: Early in this thread, I referred several times to a 30-day "100% satisfaction guarantee" with full refund. Turns out I was totally misinformed by an LBS employee on this matter.

The full refund applies only to unused and unmodified bikes. Ultimately had to decide to keep or not based on a 5-mile test ride on a long, moderate hill near the shop. Fortunately, that was enough.

Sorry for any confusion.
Click to expand...
Several members on this forum have received 100% refund in the past some after 30 days, one I can remember was between 60-90 days
 
Seventysomething said:
Several members on this forum have received 100% refund in the past some after 30 days, one I can remember was between 60-90 days
Click to expand...
On a bike that had been used or modified?

Since a risk-free 30-day trial of an expensive bike sounded a little too good to be true, I must've asked the employee I worked with (their service manager no less) to confirm a dozen times. The conversation went something like,

"I need to prove that I can ride this expensive low-power ebike up a few days-worth of local test hills without killing my knees. Still returnable for a full refund, right?"
"Right."
"Still returnable if we put on a bell and better pedals first?"
"Yes."

And so on. But when pickup day came, that guy was "on vacation", and I was left to deal with the manager, who seemed baffled that I'd been told such a thing. Said he'd honor what I'd been told if I insisted, but it wasn't official policy. In fact, policy was only a store credit if the bike came back unused and unmodified within 30 days.

We compromised on a 5-mile test climb on a nearby hill — maybe 6-8%. Didn't prove long-term knee friendliness, but I took a chance, and it worked out.

Makes me wonder now which guy was either ill-informed or trying to con me. Needless to say, not going back there. Good thing I have an excellent alternative nearby.
 
Jeremy McCreary said:
On a bike that had been used or modified?

Since a risk-free 30-day trial of an expensive bike sounded a little too good to be true, I must've asked the employee I worked with (their service manager no less) to confirm a dozen times. The conversation went something like,

"I need to prove that I can ride this expensive low-power ebike up a few days-worth of local test hills without killing my knees. Still returnable for a full refund, right?"
"Right."
"Still returnable if we put on a bell and better pedals first?"
"Yes."

And so on. But when pickup day came, that guy was "on vacation", and I was left to deal with the manager, who seemed baffled that I'd been told such a thing. Said he'd honor what I'd been told if I insisted, but it wasn't official policy. In fact, policy was only a store credit if the bike came back unused and unmodified within 30 days.

We compromised on a 5-mile test climb on a nearby hill — maybe 6-8%. Didn't prove long-term knee friendliness, but I took a chance, and it worked out.

Makes me wonder now which guy was either ill-informed or trying to con me. Needless to say, not going back there. Good thing I have an excellent alternative nearby.
Click to expand...
Most of the bikes I remember involved the turbo vado 5.0 auto shift like mine .. maybe a unique situation, a lot of customers didn’t like this bike or were having problems, I’ve had mine 21/2 years with no issues ( just a little on the heavy side)
 
Jeremy McCreary said:
CORRECTION: Early in this thread, I referred several times to a 30-day "100% satisfaction guarantee" with full refund. Turns out I was totally misinformed by an LBS employee on this matter.

The full refund applies only to unused and unmodified bikes. Ultimately had to decide to keep or not based on a 5-mile test ride on a long, moderate hill near the shop. Fortunately, that was enough.

Sorry for any confusion.
Click to expand...
That was worth clearing up!
Good on ya mate!
 
After 6 days and 90 delightful miles on the SL, I just don't understand it.

Compared to my 61 lb (bare), nominally 500W, 65Nm torque-sensing hub-drive, the 36 lb (bare) mid-drive SL has — on paper — 1/3 the peak power, significantly less torque, and has only reduced gross weight by 10%.

And yet the SL climbs every hill better! Yes, the SL's motor and I have the same cadence happy place (80-90 RPM), and the SL is well-geared to keep me there. And yes, the SL's more aero with significantly lower rolling resistance.

But stock rider position on the SL is only sIightly less upright, and I know how to get the most from this hub-drive on hills.

Please explain to me how this can be?
Technical specifics, please — no "mid-drives just climb better" platitudes.

One thing's for sure: Motor specs are even more meaningless than I ever imagined.
 
Last edited:
I'm even afraid to think what you would say if it were a Turbo Vado 5.0 (full-power) :)

1726776669576.png

Vado 6.0 is the Euro version of the American Vado 5.0. Both rides in comparable conditions, 70 mile rides in an undulated area.
 
Last edited:
Jeremy McCreary said:
After 6 days and 90 delightful miles on the SL, I just don't understand it.

Compared to my 61 lb (bare), nominally 500W, 65Nm torque-sensing hub-drive, the 36 lb (bare) mid-drive SL has — on paper — 1/3 the peak power, significantly less torque, and has only reduced gross weight by 10%.

And yet the SL climbs every hill better! Yes, the motor and I have the same cadence happy place (80-90 RPM), and the SL is well-geared to keep me there. And yes, the SL's more aero with significantly lower rolling resistance.

But stock rider position is only sIightly less upright, and I know how to get the most from this hub-drive on hills.

Please explain to me how this can be?
Technical specifics, please — no "mid-drives just climb better" platitudes.

One thing's for sure: Motor specs are even more meaningless than I ever imagined.
Click to expand...
A mid-drive takes advantage of the bike's gears--a hub-drive does not. ;)
 
If you want a hub drive to climb a steep hill with less leg effort you just need to feed it more watts.

Yes, the mid-drive motor can be placed in an advantageous drive ratio, so the motor can turn at an ideal rpm, but Jeremy's ebike is also a highly evolved electrically assisted bicycle. So, if you truly want a bicycle riding experience ride, but need or want some push to help, get a well balanced torque-sensing mid-drive.
 
Who knows what the phase current is coming from the controller to the motor. That would make a huge difference.
 
Jeremy McCreary said:
Thanks! If the Yoshi were the right color, I'd pay the price for the Racktime compatibility. But gray is their only offering, and I recall some complaints about shipping times (at least on Amazon).
Click to expand...
I use the gray Yoshi and it's a well made bag. The gray looks good IMO. I bought all my Racktime stuff from this store:

Carson City Bike Shop | Mountain Bike & Road Bike Parts

Huge Savings on all road, mountain and BMX bikes parts, components, tires, wheels and accessories! Free shipping on qualifying orders.
carsoncitybikeshop.com carsoncitybikeshop.com
Both selection, availability and shipping were good.
 
sanyata said:
I use the gray Yoshi and it's a well made bag. The gray looks good IMO. I bought all my Racktime stuff from this store:

Carson City Bike Shop | Mountain Bike & Road Bike Parts

Huge Savings on all road, mountain and BMX bikes parts, components, tires, wheels and accessories! Free shipping on qualifying orders.
carsoncitybikeshop.com carsoncitybikeshop.com
Both selection, availability and shipping were good.
Click to expand...
Thanks! Wow, what a selection! Website seems to be having some issues right now, but I'll definitely check back.

Agree, the Yoshi is a good-looking bag, but gray doesn't work with my yellow and black color scheme. Usually a function over form guy, but not on this front.
 
Jeremy,
I was thinking about the problem you set. Did you try riding the same hilly route in the maximum assistance on either e-bike on the same day? If you did, we could do a little comparison based on the average speed (for instance).

Some hypotheses:
  • 500 W could be the max electric motor power of the hub drive. The electric power of the SL 1.1 motor is 303 W. (I would ignore the max torque value as you do not know the reference angular speed of the hub-drive motor).
  • Hub-drive motors love to be spinning. A hub-drive motor has a very low efficiency when it rotates slowly (which happens on any climb). A mid-drive motor is very efficient at a proper pedalling cadence, which you achieve by gearing.
  • The assistance provided by the hub-drive motor is constant per assist level but it is variable on the mid-drive motor and depends on your pedalling power. (It is not just the torque sensor: it is the torque and cadence sensors which are both used to determine your pedalling power by the system).
A little calculation.

Assume your leg power on the climb to be 148 W and 60/60% SPORT. The max Assist of SL 1.1 is 1.8x. Electrical motor power provided will be 0.6 (Assist) * 1.8 (max Assist) * 148 (leg power) / 0.79 (motor efficiency) = 202 W. The electrical SL 1.1 motor power of 303 W will be capped at 60%, or 182 W (above the assist calculated above). Meaning, the electrical power drawn from the battery is 202 W. Now, how do you know what the actual power drawn from the battery by the hub drive motor is on the same climb?

You can only compare the performance of both motors by riding both e-bikes in the maximum assistance on the same route in the same conditions.
 
Stefan Mikes said:
Jeremy,
I was thinking about the problem you set. Did you try riding the same hilly route in the maximum assistance on either e-bike on the same day? If you did, we could do a little comparison based on the average speed (for instance).

Some hypotheses:
  • 500 W could be the max electric motor power of the hub drive. The electric power of the SL 1.1 motor is 303 W. (I would ignore the max torque value as you do not know the reference angular speed of the hub-drive motor).
  • Hub-drive motors love to be spinning. A hub-drive motor has a very low efficiency when it rotates slowly (which happens on any climb). A mid-drive motor is very efficient at a proper pedalling cadence, which you achieve by gearing.
  • The assistance provided by the hub-drive motor is constant per assist level but it is variable on the mid-drive motor and depends on your pedalling power. (It is not just the torque sensor: it is the torque and cadence sensors which are both used to determine your pedalling power by the system).
A little calculation.

Assume your leg power on the climb to be 148 W and 60/60% SPORT. The max Assist of SL 1.1 is 1.8x. Electrical motor power provided will be 0.6 (Assist) * 1.8 (max Assist) * 148 (leg power) / 0.79 (motor efficiency) = 202 W. The electrical SL 1.1 motor power of 303 W will be capped at 60%, or 182 W (above the assist calculated above). Meaning, the electrical power drawn from the battery is 202 W. Now, how do you know what the actual power drawn from the battery by the hub drive motor is on the same climb?

You can only compare the performance of both motors by riding both e-bikes in the maximum assistance on the same route in the same conditions.
Click to expand...
Thanks! Good points, but I'll have to mull over the details.

One thing I have to disagree with quite strongly: My hub-drive has an excellent torque-sensing assist system and most definitely doles out assist according to pedal force. And it does this quite well without a true cadence sensor. Selecting an assist level only caps the max power available in that level.
 
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