E-bikes under fire as fatalities climb in NYC

[PedalUma]

My town is doing a lot for its small size in the North Bay. They are pouring concrete today on a busy trail connecting downtown the East Side and the train station. That trail had the worst grit and muck. An eBike on the train takes care of the last mile issue. Paths are linking to paths from other towns.

What projects are Petaluma working on to improve pedestrian, bicycle and rolling transportation? - Petaluma

Projects the City are working on to improve bike and pedestrian transportation include: Lynch Creek Trail Paving McDowell Intersections, Sidewalks, Curb Returns ADA improvements, includes Rainier Westridge Parkway River Trail 101 crossing Multi Use Path and Parkway path Restoration Trestle...

cityofpetaluma.org

50%. Sounds cost prohibitive as an investment. I will make the Sweet Curry Spicy.

 

[tomdutchie]

There are lots of youtube videos of bicycles in city centers in Europe. When I look at them it seems like nearly everyone is going a lot slower than 20kph.

Funny.. video of my hometown
Yeah, can confirm that with 25kmh/16mph you are (in the city) almost constant on the left side, overtaking the non e-bikes [avg speed: 15kmh/10mph]: the bikes and the way we use them are made for transport, and to go faster would increase the effort put into it: and we want to be fit where we are heading to. (transport instead of sport).
When riding race-bikes as a sport, or purely for pleasure tend to go to the country/rural areas where the (bike-) traffic density is lower and the annoyance less:
that's why we have -in general- more than 1 bike [avg: 1.3/person]: city [upright] bike for doing groceries/shopping and race/leisure for going on further/tour [total averaging 880km/550mi in 275 trips per year, about 25% of traffic]

 

[Catalyzt]

Your response to people dying: Deal with it.

This is a hysterical way of paraphrasing what I actually said, which was "somewhat reduced expectation of safety."

The problem with this attitude, apart from being a repulsive vice repugnant to say, major religions (thus the virtue of mercy and defense of human life generally ),

This is an ad-hominem attack on my values and character, and a likely a violation of EBR's Terms of Service. I'm not interested in your religious beliefs, or what you consider a 'major' religion, and I won't be trolled or lectured about vice or morality.

is that you could say it regardless of the circumstance,

I could say many things under many different circumstances, but I don't think it's asking too much for you to comment only on things I actually said.

and its entire purpose is to justify doing nothing, when almost invariably something can be done.

I'm not advocating or justifying anything, I'm just providing background and historical context, one small piece of a very large puzzle. I have not formulated an opinion on what, if anything, to do. I only do that after reviewing evidence, civilized debate, etc.

You're also wrong. New York has the lowest traffic death rate of any state (tied with MA). Saying as you do that people can go 30 mph a fraction of the time (downhill) is basically equal to going 30+ mph all the time everywhere with motor vehicles is also

Again, this has nothing to do with my post, or the topic, which is "fatalities climb in New York City." I don't know if you've actually been there, but it is physically impossible to go "30+ miles per hour all the time everywhere" whether you're driving a Lamborghini or riding a skateboard.

just more fallacious claptrap. https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/state-by-state

The fallacy is in your post, not mine, and it's a variant of the "straw man" argument known as the "hollow man" argument.

 

[PedalUma]

What is more of a menace? This or a bike?
That is not a bike rack up front although it is for catching an holding a bike's rider at the moment of impact until they get dragged under. It is not like we have mobs of roos around here. What we have are lots of bikes and pedestrians, kids on bikes and old ladies with walkers. The exhaust pipe is for spewing soot and the ramming spike on the back is disguised as a trailer hitch. You only install a hitch like that into the receiver when towing. Just like you only attach a snow plow when it is snowing. The driver couldn't even see an average pedestrian in front of this menace at a crosswalk.

We have had cultural conflict in California for along time. Those that crossed by sea largely had community improvement collective values, those that crossed by land had personal salvation and individualistic values. In my opinion, I value the democratic collective, such as good public spaces over road hog individuals.

 

[RunForTheHills]

What is more of a menace? This or a bike?
That is not a bike rack up front although it is for catching an holding a bike's rider at the moment of impact until they get dragged under. It is not like we have mobs of roos around here. What we have are lots of bikes and pedestrians, kids on bikes and old ladies with walkers. The exhaust pipe is for spewing soot and the ramming spike on the back is disguised as a trailer hitch. You only install a hitch like that into the receiver when towing. Just like you only attach a snow plow when it is snowing. The driver couldn't even see an average pedestrian in front of this menace at a crosswalk.

We have had cultural conflict in California for along time. Those that crossed by sea largely had community improvement collective values, those that crossed by land had personal salvation and individualistic values. In my opinion, I value the democratic collective, such as good public spaces over road hog individuals.

Meh. It is the driver that makes the truck safe or dangerous. Not the lift kit, bull bars, or trailer hitch. Someone in a Prius texting while driving is more dangerous than someone in a pickup truck with both hands on the wheel and both eyes on the road.

 

[soyabean]

You know why dog owners in my town are always picking up any poop they always find?

Because they don't want the municipal to pass down more stricter laws.

When "electric powered thingies" become a problem, a city will do something about it, no matter how much safety bible you preach to them.

I do my part to be responsible. When I am on paved bike path where I see kids on bikes with training wheels, my pedal assist is off and I pedal just like they do.

Meanwhile, there are punks on their brand new e-something they just bought from Costco and get away with whatever they can because there are no e-cops to stop them, aside from the scolding they get from the pedestrians.

 

[J.R.]

What is more of a menace? This or a bike?
That is not a bike rack up front although it is for catching an holding a bike's rider at the moment of impact until they get dragged under. It is not like we have mobs of roos around here. What we have are lots of bikes and pedestrians, kids on bikes and old ladies with walkers. The exhaust pipe is for spewing soot and the ramming spike on the back is disguised as a trailer hitch. You only install a hitch like that into the receiver when towing. Just like you only attach a snow plow when it is snowing. The driver couldn't even see an average pedestrian in front of this menace at a crosswalk.

We have had cultural conflict in California for along time. Those that crossed by sea largely had community improvement collective values, those that crossed by land had personal salvation and individualistic values. In my opinion, I value the democratic collective, such as good public spaces over road hog individuals.

That truck might be the means to a living for the owner. He/she may use the reciever hitch and winch everyday. I see small cars with bike racks, no bikes, in the down position all the time. You'll be just as dead getting hit by a 2000 pound hybrid car as a 6000 pound diesel pickup truck.

I own a F150 pickup. I have a hitch and I haul an equipment trailer or boat. Not a menace and never killed anyone. Its stereotyping we don't need. Not everyone with a pickup is rolling coal. It's just a tool to perform a task.

 

[Asher]

This is a hysterical way of paraphrasing what I actually said, which was "somewhat reduced expectation of safety."

This is an ad-hominem attack on my values and character, and a likely a violation of EBR's Terms of Service. I'm not interested in your religious beliefs, or what you consider a 'major' religion, and I won't be trolled or lectured about vice or morality.

I could say many things under many different circumstances, but I don't think it's asking too much for you to comment only on things I actually said.


I'm not advocating or justifying anything, I'm just providing background and historical context, one small piece of a very large puzzle. I have not formulated an opinion on what, if anything, to do. I only do that after reviewing evidence, civilized debate, etc.

Again, this has nothing to do with my post, or the topic, which is "fatalities climb in New York City." I don't know if you've actually been there, but it is physically impossible to go "30+ miles per hour all the time everywhere" whether you're driving a Lamborghini or riding a skateboard.

The fallacy is in your post, not mine, and it's a variant of the "straw man" argument known as the "hollow man" argument.

You wrote:

"I don't mean to be insensitive to pedestrians who are injured by bikes, but in a NYC, there has always been a *somewhat* reduced expectation for safety.

Not a total disregard for human life, not a post-apocalyptic Lord-Of-The-Flies hellscape, but a modestly increased chance of accidents of all kinds."

In response to the report of traffic deaths. Instead of considering how traffic deaths could be cut, you are saying people should slightly expect to die or get injured when visiting NYC, because that's what NYC is (which a) it isn't, according to the traffic death stats and b) the city is what people and officials make of it). It's like if someone talks about deaths in the workplace, and instead of considering how to make the workplace safer, you say to expect it to be dangerous. That is a backhanded way of pinning responsibility on victims ('you should have expected this') instead of the people with the power to make changes.

Your pantomiming about state versus city statistics isn't credible either; NY is tied for #50 in traffic deaths per capita and it's not a coincidence (pic), as Bloomberg CityLab recognizes.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[Catalyzt]

You wrote:
Instead of considering how traffic deaths could be cut, you are saying people should slightly expect to die or get injured when visiting NYC, because that's what NYC is (which a) it isn't, according to the traffic death stats and b) the city is what people and officials make of it). It's like if someone talks about deaths in the workplace, and instead of considering how to make the workplace safer, you say to expect it to be dangerous.

This time, the fallacy you are using is called the fallacy of false dichotomy, or false dilemma. This is also similar to the cognitive distortion known as black and white thinking.

As if there are only two options: Expecting people to die or get injured, or try to make the city less dangerous for cycling for pedestrians.

I actually think some of the ideas you suggested are kind of interesting-- wider streets for pedestrians for example.

 

[PedalUma]

That truck might be the means to a living for the owner. He/she may use the reciever hitch and winch everyday. I see small cars with bike racks, no bikes, in the down position all the time. You'll be just as dead getting hit by a 2000 pound hybrid car as a 6000 pound diesel pickup truck.

I own a F150 pickup. I have a hitch and I haul an equipment trailer or boat. Not a menace and never killed anyone. Its stereotyping we don't need. Not everyone with a pickup is rolling coal. It's just a tool to perform a task.

I am talking about collective density, mobility and safety in places such as NYC. The F-150 is a tool you use. Cool. If we put 1,000 of those black trucks in Manhattan it would have a larger impact of collective mobility than 1,000 bikes. This driver uses it to commute to a restaurant by himself where he works in the kitchen. It is not a working truck. There are a lot of bike companies in this area. One of them, Public Bikes uses this slogan: Mass Transportation for One.
What if people all crisscrossed a dense tech campus in massive trucks instead of bikes? Would anyone arrive safer, more present or faster?

https://i.shgcdn.com/1ace7443-211b-43e8-9980-e692a03398cc/-/format/auto/-/preview/3000x3000/-/quality/lighter/

 

[RunForTheHills]

I am talking about collective density, mobility and safety in places such as NYC. The F-150 is a tool you use. Cool. If we put 1,000 of those black trucks in Manhattan it would have a larger impact of collective mobility than 1,000 bikes. This driver uses it to commute to a restaurant by himself where he works in the kitchen. It is not a working truck. There are a lot of bike companies in this area. One of them, Public Bikes uses this slogan: Mass Transportation for One.
What if people all crossed a tech campus in massive trucks instead of bikes?

https://i.shgcdn.com/1ace7443-211b-43e8-9980-e692a03398cc/-/format/auto/-/preview/3000x3000/-/quality/lighter/

I don't know if you have ever driven and parked a full size pickup, but they don't easily fit in city parking spaces and a lifted truck like that one won't be able to enter most parking garages. Someone who lives and/or works in Manhattan wouldn't be likely to drive one unless they needed it for work. On the other hand, someone who lives and works on a ranch is highly likely to own and drive a truck.

What is more of a menace? This or a bike?
That is not a bike rack up front although it is for catching an holding a bike's rider at the moment of impact until they get dragged under. It is not like we have mobs of roos around here. What we have are lots of bikes and pedestrians, kids on bikes and old ladies with walkers. The exhaust pipe is for spewing soot and the ramming spike on the back is disguised as a trailer hitch. You only install a hitch like that into the receiver when towing. Just like you only attach a snow plow when it is snowing. The driver couldn't even see an average pedestrian in front of this menace at a crosswalk.

We have had cultural conflict in California for along time. Those that crossed by sea largely had community improvement collective values, those that crossed by land had personal salvation and individualistic values. In my opinion, I value the democratic collective, such as good public spaces over road hog individuals.

I know you mention community values at the end, but I don't know how you can read this as and not interpret it as saying that the truck is a safety hazard on the road.

 

[Asher]

This time, the fallacy you are using is called the fallacy of false dichotomy, or false dilemma. This is also similar to the cognitive distortion known as black and white thinking.

As if there are only two options: Expecting people to die or get injured, or try to make the city less dangerous for cycling for pedestrians.

I actually think some of the ideas you suggested are kind of interesting-- wider streets for pedestrians for example.

But I'm not engaging in dialogue with someone who insults my values without even knowing what they are. Probably not the first time you've run into that problem, am I right?

I didn't "insult your values", I said your remark betrayed a lack of concern for the dead victims of traffic crashes.

 

[Dallant]

Any wheeled traffic in NYC could be blamed for increases in injury/death.
Living in the rural Midwest, I really don’t think we have many of the ebike concerns NYC has and I sure don’t care what the Post has to say. They’re just trying to sell papers in NYC. I would hope that Ravi and others have far better things to do than post relatively meaningless editorials. But then some are hot to talk how emotorcycles are ebikes now. Oh well, just more going on the ignore list.

 

[drewberz]

Supporting infrastructure is so critical. I believe it is the difference between e-bikes lasting, or just being a fad.

 

[J.R.]

I am talking about collective density, mobility and safety in places such as NYC. The F-150 is a tool you use. Cool. If we put 1,000 of those black trucks in Manhattan it would have a larger impact of collective mobility than 1,000 bikes. This driver uses it to commute to a restaurant by himself where he works in the kitchen. It is not a working truck. There are a lot of bike companies in this area. One of them, Public Bikes uses this slogan: Mass Transportation for One.
What if people all crisscrossed a dense tech campus in massive trucks instead of bikes? Would anyone arrive safer, more present or faster?
View attachment 90540

https://i.shgcdn.com/1ace7443-211b-43e8-9980-e692a03398cc/-/format/auto/-/preview/3000x3000/-/quality/lighter/

I'm sorry, but you posed this question at the outset, with a picture of a bike and a pickup.

What is more of a menace? This or a bike?

Where are we when we can't extol the virtues of one thing without pointing to something else and making it evil, in order to say the first thing is better, more virtuous, more moral.

What do we say to the person that points out that the raw materials for our batteries are mined by poor, starving children in Africa? Because we can't have that in our backyard. What do we say when someone points out that many parts for ebikes are made by Uyghurs, held in prison camps in China? Because we won't pay the price for bikes made at home.

You talk about a cultural conflict, your statement is full of contemp for your fellows. It's not us versus them. Its today versus yesterday. We have to do better today than we did yesterday and as a whole, we have.

 

[reed scott]

Oh man, another thread has devolved into politics and vain philosophy.

 

[J.R.]

Oh man, another thread has devolved into politics and vain philosophy.

You know, you're right. I have stayed out of politics here. It's a rabbit hole. I'm just fed up seeing and reading about Americans attacking Americans. No vanity whatsoever, I'm just fed up with it everywhere I turn. I'm sure it is in vain to take the time to point it out though.

 

[PedalUma]

Oh man, another thread has devolved into politics and vain philosophy.

Politics is the process of distributing and managing collective resources. Since we are discussing the commons and the betterment of us all, that is going to be a factor. Sorry. The problem arises when we try to figure out what is in the collective realm; air, water, infrastructure, a person's body, a weaponized vehicle..?

 

[Catalyzt]

Once again, A poster with lots of smeared lipstick. A shame the forum doesn't insist on real names instead of nom de plumes. Facebook still gets some nasty comments, but I perceive there are more threads with members taking a piss here.

View attachment 90546

Aw, man. That's a gross picture, Tom. If you meant that for me, just come out and say so, but...

Why do we need to start doing that?

You want real names? Why? What would you do if you had mine?

This sucks, man. I got nothing but respect for your posts here.

How did we get here?

How do we dial it back?

I didn't "insult your values", I said your remark betrayed a lack of concern for the dead victims of traffic crashes.

Yeah, you did. The bit about 'vice' and 'virtues,' yeah-- that's an attack on my values.

That's making it personal.

If you disagree with me, that's different, that's totally fair, man. Call me out, challenge me to do better.

But actually, my job puts me face-to-face with victims all the time, though mostly victims of violent crime, not accidents due to negligence. So please, I'm trying to ask nicely, don't tell me you know what I think, what I believe, or what I feel.

Because you have no idea how I feel. What I care about. What keeps me up at night.

 

[Catalyzt]

You know, you're right. I have stayed out of politics here. It's a rabbit hole. I'm just fed up seeing and reading about Americans attacking Americans. No vanity whatsoever, I'm just fed up with it everywhere I turn. I'm sure it is in vain to take the time to point it out though.

+1 on Americans attacking Americans and being fed up.

No, it's not in vain. Well said, man. I don't think Pedal was doing the thing you thought he was doing... but I can see why you thought that.