E-Bike journey planning

[RealHuman]

Hey EBR community!
I want to help change the status quo of mobility, which is very car-based. I believe e-bikes are a great solution for a lot of problems, and I want to design software solutions to make their use more convenient.
I don't own one yet, so I'm turning to the internet to ask people who live with them everyday: How do you plan for longer trips where you will need to re-charge? Is this a problem at all?

I really look forward to reading your experiences

Cheers,
Nuno

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Why are you so concerned with longer trips? In the Untied States three-fourths of all vehicle trips are less than ten miles, easily within range for nearly all e-bikes. Those distances are even shorter in Europe.

E-bike based bicycle travel is also feasible, and if your bike has the range to cover 80-120km over the course of a day without recharging most of the country is accessible to you. You generally will have no trouble recharging your bike in campgrounds (if they have electricity on site) or hotels, and in most places (in the states) you can count on those being available in some form or another every thirty or forty miles, and closer together still in more densely populated Europe. If you have a decent mid-drive e-bike with two 500wh batteries the above ranges are feasible at modest levels of pedal assist -- its a nice thing but not necessary for the bike to be able to run from both batteries at once.

My own opinion is that if you have to recharge during the day this requires much more planning and more effort and you'll end up using some of the best riding hours of the day sitting around waiting for your bike to charge.

Fast charging for e-bikes isn't yet a thing, and may never be.

The bigger barrier, I think, is that very few e-bikes are really thoughtfully designed for bicycle travel. Yes, you can make most of them work but no e-bike manufacturer is really making an e-bike that checks all the boxes:

1. Ergonomics and bike fit that make the bike really comfortable for long-distance, day-in, day-out riding.
2. Adequate low gearing to make it feasible to run at very low pedal assist so you can get the needed range.
3. Decent front and rear rack options. I do not know of any e-bike maker that lets you just go out and buy Tubus racks and have them just work on your e-bike,
4. Weight, length, (and to a lesser extent tire size) that make the bike easily handled when you need to carry it on a bus or train.
5. Adequate bottle storage on the frame. If you are riding 80+km on hot summer day you'll want to carry at least three water bottles.

 

[Art Deco]

Hey EBR community!
I want to help change the status quo of mobility, which is very car-based. I believe e-bikes are a great solution for a lot of problems, and I want to design software solutions to make their use more convenient.
I don't own one yet, so I'm turning to the internet to ask people who live with them everyday: How do you plan for longer trips where you will need to re-charge? Is this a problem at all?

I really look forward to reading your experiences

Cheers,
Nuno

Software on most ebikes is pretty primitive, and mostly ignored by both manufacturers and riders, IMHO.
There are a few programs in the app store for finding trails, some GPS based trackers, and the display /assist software bundled with the bike or controller, but other than Bafang riders trying to configure their (VERY confusing and undocumented) assist settings, software is not usually very important on a bike.
A software based de- restricter to get past the the 20 mph assist limit might catch on as well, but it's difficult to see a display prompt or manipulate controls while riding.
Look at the "cockpit " thread here and you will see why.

 

[indianajo]

My hips get tired before the battery runs out. About 5 hours is the limit. A seat like a sofa cushion would be nice, but not available for 28 mm column. If you are not age 72 you may have more fat on your hips. I did until age 65, but that is when I lost the fat & gained more time to tour.
I deleted my display. It made up a bunch of lies & I know how far I went from the map. It also fogged over from the rain. I use paper maps and don't carry a smart phone. Phone has to be in my pocket if I wake up in a ditch after being knocked off the bike by a car. Smart phone won't fit in a pants pocket. Cargo pants are 100% cotton, not resistant to road burn like mechanic's pants. I've only been hit by cars twice since I installed electricity: one only bent the battery mount, one knocked me off the seat but I landed on my feet. I couldn't see a smart phone anyway without reading glasses, & glasses would fog up the way I ride.
I carry one bottle of water in a clip mounted on the battery mount, and 2 or 3 in the pannier. I carry 3 tubes, a pump a tire & 8 lb of tools in the pannier to deal with breakdowns. I had 2 tubes once, the first was consumed by road trash and the second blew up immediately on inflation. Tubes are made in ***** now, no more goodyears or firestones. I locked the bike up that time & walked 7 miles to a friend's house to get a ride to a discount store for some tubes. One time I blew a tire sidewall and pushed the bike 6 miles with 40 lb groceries in the pannier. Waving a $50 bill interested zero pickups to stop. If mechanical problem occur wreckers can't find the roads I'm on, they don't have name signs, and wreckers are $100 up anyway out in the country. I also carry 2 levels of rain & cold gear.
My bike is too long to fit city bus racks, but will carry substantial weight. I'm building a mount for a 1200 WH battery on the front for 60 mile trips without charging. Nearest Amtrak station is 60 miles away. Greyhound+Megabus+Tornadobus won't carry bicycles outside a carton. With 60 mile range (with hills) I could also attend a couple of festivals & concerts 30 miles from my summer camp. My battery is too difficult to remove to be stolen. Takes 15 minutes to remove even with the two wrenches and the nail puller required.
Charging a bike battery is pretty much a violation of regulations everywhere except at stinky RV campsites. Such campsites are $50 a night up. I detest the smell of sewage discharge facilities. Motels won't allow e-bikes in the room, due to the news stories about fires. The fact that the bike battery is LIFePo4 or even lead-acid means nothing to anybody. Also most inexpensive motels put customers on the second floor, with a long push up the stairs. Carrying a 4 amp charger is not a problem on a cargo bike. There are beginning to be car charge stations, but they don't have 120 vac outlets. The adapter weighs a couple of pounds. Nor would the minimum tarriff cover $.80 of electricity to charge a bicycle battery. Minimum charge on a debit card is usually $3. Solar chargers have too much surface area in a increasingly windy world. If they would roll up, great. Gasoline generators some ebike tourists carry are just as bad as driving a car, and probably pollute more. I'm still renting a car to do major touring; I don't have the knees to pedal unpowered the way some unemployed young people do.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hey EBR community!
I want to help change the status quo of mobility, which is very car-based. I believe e-bikes are a great solution for a lot of problems, and I want to design software solutions to make their use more convenient.
I don't own one yet, so I'm turning to the internet to ask people who live with them everyday: How do you plan for longer trips where you will need to re-charge? Is this a problem at all?

I really look forward to reading your experiences

Cheers,
Nuno

I am afraid you cannot design software more advanced than the Specialized Mission Control system Especially as there are plethora of e-bikes with many different systems, many of them either proprietary or closed architecture. How would you like to program a Bosch, Specialized/Brose, Giant/Yamaha, Shimano, Fazua, TQ or Mahle e-bike? (I'm only talking about premium motor/system brands as found in Europe).

If you are just asking for planning a longer trip and the necessity to recharge:
You and I both live in Europe. You can recharge the battery (or batteries) at any hotel or a campsite. Where's the problem?

Regarding the route planning, there are RideWithGPS, Komoot, Strava, Locus and many other. They do not need to be e-bike related: all what you need to know is the planned distance, elevation gain, and availability of a hotel or motel or a campsite. (I have not heard of any European campsite with no electricity!)

All the six trips of my 2021 Vacation Part 1 on e-bikes. Me & brother were travelling between the hotels in Poland and the Czech Republic by car but it could be easily done on e-bikes only!

 

[PSm]

Hey EBR community!
I want to help change the status quo of mobility, which is very car-based. I believe e-bikes are a great solution for a lot of problems, and I want to design software solutions to make their use more convenient.
I don't own one yet, so I'm turning to the internet to ask people who live with them everyday: How do you plan for longer trips where you will need to re-charge? Is this a problem at all?

I really look forward to reading your experiences

Cheers,
Nuno

Reality is that recharging during the day, in the middle of a trip, is not typical due to long charging times.

Many people buy a bike that has acceptable range, or buy extra batteries that they can bring with them. Or in my case, adjust my assist level lower, to extend my range.

Otherwise, just charge overnight, and or keep chargers in two locations if commuting (and you don’t have enough range).

 

[RealHuman]

Wow, a lot more feedback than I expected! Thank you for this
Ok - idea trashed. Range anxiety is not a real problem amongst e-bike users, and is it not what is stopping more people from adopting e-bikes. I'm glad I checked in here.

What problems would you like to see resolved with soft mobility solutions, such as e-bikes for cargo and travel, to help them become the norm?
Feedback from both US & Europe is super appreciated. I am trying to find problems to solve.

 

[Art Deco]

Wow, a lot more feedback than I expected! Thank you for this
Ok - idea trashed. Range anxiety is not a real problem amongst e-bike users, and is it not what is stopping more people from adopting e-bikes. I'm glad I checked in here.

What problems would you like to see resolved with soft mobility solutions, such as e-bikes for cargo and travel, to help them become the norm?
Feedback from both US & Europe is super appreciated. I am trying to find problems to solve.

You just got some feed back from a few very experienced riders ... none of us are "typical" riders if there is such a thing. So keep this thread active for a week or two and the story may change .

The obvious software problem is the BMS, the " battery management system" that is supposed to prevent all these damn ebike fires, and that software is usually invisible to the user, bundled with the battery, and obviously not very good.

Fixing that would require working with the builders, not the riders.

Long distance touring and "bike packing" are really tiny niches of an already niche market, while the big key uses of commuting and shorter rides that bikes can easily replace cars for are more important to new riders.

if you do software for riders focus there, not on the already addicted (us).

The issue for newbs is simply not becoming a hood ornament for a car or truck, and I don't think software alone can do much there, and could make things worse if yet another display is required.

Anyway, welome to EBR @RealHuman .

 

[Mr. Coffee]

When I think about it, over the last half-dozen years that I've been riding e-bikes and observing the space diligently, I have seen a lot of e-bike models and brands come and go. And honestly given how much I think is possible I have seen precious little innovation in this space. Even basic technical improvements on batteries and motors have came at a glacially slow pace.

Most of the "innovation" I have seen have been variants on the marketing and sales channel and have precious little to do with the bicycle or, bluntly, the rider.

A few things that I think could be Big Deals (some I've mentioned in the past) and I offer them free of charge to anyone with the gumption to make them all work are:

1. "Pairing" chargers, batteries, and bike motors. I envision a system there all three of these things have serial numbers and you need to use software of some kind to make them work together. The intention is that if someone's bike is stolen that bike will need to be charged eventually. If set up properly you could make it somewhere between hideously difficult and hopelessly impossible to get any value from a stolen e-bike or battery.
2. Built-to-order bikes. Ideally you would have an online bike fit which would choose a bike of the right size for the purchaser. Or you could have a simpler system where at ordering time the purchaser submits their height, weight, and a photo. Then the builder chooses the right frame size (or perhaps a custom-built frame) with the right stem height and saddle height. Given that (I think) the average e-bike is ridden further and longer than the average acoustic bike, this would provide huge improvements in bike comfort.
3. Steel is real. In 2019 there were rumblings of newer process for making steel tubes suitable for bike frames. The potential seemed to be for less expensive, lighter, and stronger steel bike frames. Last I heard (early 2020) was that they were inking deals to build factories in Eastern Europe. Since then, crickets. This could also tie nicely into the previous idea since it would be easier to build custom bike frames at scale around steel.
4. Light weight e-bikes. A lot of folks argue that with an electric "weight doesn't matter". Well, they are correct until they need to take the bike up or down flights of stairs, load it onto a bike rack, or carry it on a train or bus with a weight limitation. And then weight can matter a heck of a lot.
5. Battery share, not bike share.
6. A Universal Display Unit.

 

[Art Deco]

When I think about it, over the last half-dozen years that I've been riding e-bikes and observing the space diligently, I have seen a lot of e-bike models and brands come and go. And honestly given how much I think is possible I have seen precious little innovation in this space. Even basic technical improvements on batteries and motors have came at a glacially slow pace.

Most of the "innovation" I have seen have been variants on the marketing and sales channel and have precious little to do with the bicycle or, bluntly, the rider.

A few things that I think could be Big Deals (some I've mentioned in the past) and I offer them free of charge to anyone with the gumption to make them all work are:

1. "Pairing" chargers, batteries, and bike motors. I envision a system there all three of these things have serial numbers and you need to use software of some kind to make them work together. The intention is that if someone's bike is stolen that bike will need to be charged eventually. If set up properly you could make it somewhere between hideously difficult and hopelessly impossible to get any value from a stolen e-bike or battery.
2. Built-to-order bikes. Ideally you would have an online bike fit which would choose a bike of the right size for the purchaser. Or you could have a simpler system where at ordering time the purchaser submits their height, weight, and a photo. Then the builder chooses the right frame size (or perhaps a custom-built frame) with the right stem height and saddle height. Given that (I think) the average e-bike is ridden further and longer than the average acoustic bike, this would provide huge improvements in bike comfort.
3. Steel is real. In 2019 there were rumblings of newer process for making steel tubes suitable for bike frames. The potential seemed to be for less expensive, lighter, and stronger steel bike frames. Last I heard (early 2020) was that they were inking deals to build factories in Eastern Europe. Since then, crickets. This could also tie nicely into the previous idea since it would be easier to build custom bike frames at scale around steel.
4. Light weight e-bikes. A lot of folks argue that with an electric "weight doesn't matter". Well, they are correct until they need to take the bike up or down flights of stairs, load it onto a bike rack, or carry it on a train or bus with a weight limitation. And then weight can matter a heck of a lot.
5. Battery share, not bike share.
6. A Universal Display Unit.

IDK about # 2 and #3 , but for the rest , especially #5, I absolutely agree. Batteries should be handed like the refillable propane tanks for grills.
And I will bet the manufacturers will fight us on every point you just made. Sigh.

 

[6zfshdb]

Wow, a lot more feedback than I expected! Thank you for this
Ok - idea trashed. Range anxiety is not a real problem amongst e-bike users, and is it not what is stopping more people from adopting e-bikes. I'm glad I checked in here.

What problems would you like to see resolved with soft mobility solutions, such as e-bikes for cargo and travel, to help them become the norm?
Feedback from both US & Europe is super appreciated. I am trying to find problems to solve.

As I see it, the biggest impediment to universal e-bike travel, here in the US anyway, is the lack of bike friendly infrastructure. The US lags behind Europe in the construction of safe, vehicle free bike lanes and secure parking facilities.

Many US cities are addressing these problems but due to the distances involved, it will be many years before regular intercity bike transportation is practical. In the vast rural sections of the country, it will likely never happen.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

... it will be many years before regular intercity bike transportation is practical. In the vast rural sections of the country, it will likely never happen.

But probably more because there will never be the budget for maintenance than anything else. In the vast rural sections of the country, there is a lot of space. There are also a lot of abandoned railroad rights of way, power line rights of way, and abandoned highway rights of way -- and most of those will go to or connect to useful locations. All of those could be converted to bicycle or walking paths at a reasonable cost per mile.

I also don't think bike infra is as big an issue in rural areas. As long as there are relatively quiet roads to ride on you are pretty safe. And a lot of rural roads are very quiet.

 

[6zfshdb]

I also don't think bike infra is as big an issue in rural areas. As long as there are relatively quiet roads to ride on you are pretty safe. And a lot of rural roads are very quiet.View attachment 152439

Up until last summer, I would agree with you until I was literally run off a road, similar to the one in your pic, by a texting delivery driver.

 

[PSm]

As I see it, the biggest impediment to universal e-bike travel, here in the US anyway, is the lack of bike friendly infrastructure. The US lags behind Europe in the construction of safe, vehicle free bike lanes and secure parking facilities.

Many US cities are addressing these problems but due to the distances involved, it will be many years before regular intercity bike transportation is practical. In the vast rural sections of the country, it will likely never happen.

Back to the OP question, not sure if there is much that can be done software-related, to help bikers be safe on the road for commuting.

One out of the box idea, is if there could be some way for AI or Data Mining used or even crowd sourcing, to provide the most “bike-friendly” route navigation? What do I mean - Google maps will provide a bike route, but how about color coding those routes? Blue or green for the optimal route with all separated bike paths or wide bike lanes? Yellow for some lanes with narrow or no bike lanes? Red for no bike lanes and or heavy car traffic? Or, adjusting route based on real time traffic levels?

Only thing I can think of, and even this is a stretch.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

A whole lot of products provide "heat maps" which do exactly that.

 

[PSm]

A whole lot of products provide "heat maps" which do exactly that.

Yes, but looking for a more advanced software driven version, especially for cyclists . And the OP is looking for something new to work on?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Yes, but looking for a more advanced software driven version, especially for cyclists . And the OP is looking for something new to work on?

The point made by @Mr. Coffee was the "cycling heatmaps" have been already used by bike GPS computers as well as numerous bike route planners to choose a route from A to B that has already been frequented by hundreds of thousand if not millions of rides. Hence, such a route is considered safe.

There are Global Heatmaps collected from rides of all cyclists recorded or Personal Heatmaps collected from the rides of an individual. Thick lines in heatmaps are the most frequented routes, thinner lines denote the less popular but still used ones.

See my Personal Heatmap in the region made from all the rides I had since 2013 (here, collected in RideWithGPS).

There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

... but there are a couple of ways to find a possibly superior wheel hidden in there.

Two pieces of useful data that you could throw into the mix: one is heatmaps for motor vehicles, so you could also know where to not route. The other is to use satellite data to find roads with good shoulders and sight lines that would be relatively safer.

 

[PSm]

Agree, heat maps are cool. But maybe they can be made more user friendly and useful?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Agree, heat maps are cool. But maybe they can be made more user friendly and useful?

It works the way that if you ask Wahoo ELEMNT app or RideWithGPS to find a route from A to B, the app would suggest riding through the roads/bike paths selected earlier by thousands of cyclist, meaning it's safe. Still cannot find a reason to reinvent the wheel


I had a funny experience on Saturday. I first rode from my place to an excellent cycling store in Warsaw. Then, I asked Wahoo Companion App to find me the best route to see my daughter at another location. The app told me the best way was leading just by the place I lived