Did Anybody Own A Ebike With The Ultra With A Nylon Gear?

[Ebiker33]

The reason why I am asking as we are working on a R & D prototype project that replaces the steel gear with with the best quality "PEEK" carbon fiber gear we can find and make.
This would be even stronger than the Luna one, because it needs to be, it would be black instead natural of "PEEK"
I was watching the video's of the tear downs of that gear, and the originals came with nylon gears but they were shredding under the heavy load this motor can produce.
Questions:
1)Did it fail ?
2)Under what condition did it fail ?
3)If it failed, how long did it last ?
4)If you replaced it with a steel gear how much louder was it ?
5)If you still have it running(nylon gear) are happy with how loud the motor is ?

You can see the project in this thread in the Watt Wagons forum

PEEK Gear For The Ultra Needed

 

[AHicks]

TForan has an early Ultra G510 w/the OEM composite gear. A Biktrix fatty I believe...

 

[Ebiker33]

TForan has an early Ultra G510 w/the OEM composite gear. A Biktrix fatty I believe...

Yeah I remember somebody posting about it, I will wait for his input, I think he said he already purchased a steel gear but never installed because the nylon gear never failed.
@TForan

 

[ElevenAD]

there are a Few guys in the Facebook Biktrix Forum with older nylon geared Ultras and i dont recall seeing any issues posted, i think they are still up and running just fine! also the Ultra with steel gears are louder for sure but keep in mind even with steel gears it is not super loud, maybe the same as or even more quiet than the Bosch gen 4! but not as quite as something like a Shimano EP8. ArielRider have found middle ground with their gears, they use nylon gears with steel teeth so they are a little louder than nylon but much stronger.

 

[AHicks]

I agree on the steel gear Ultra noise level. It's not THAT bad. I call it a low growl. It's something that IS tolerable. At the same time though, it's something I would like to eliminate/not have to listen too. My 1000w+ MAC 12t hub drive for instance, is silent, a welcome change after riding the growling Ultra..... -Al

 

[kmccune]

I agree on the steel gear Ultra noise level. It's not THAT bad. I call it a low growl. It's something that IS tolerable. At the same time though, it's something I would like to eliminate/not have to listen too. My 1000w+ MAC 12t hub drive for instance, is silent, a welcome change after riding the growling Ultra..... -Al

Is that a DD motor? I would love to be using those components my budget does not allow( maybe some day) that controller upgrade turned the XC100 into a little tiger that doesn't give up. I bought a "Peacedove" for the step-thru and steel frame, was pleasantly surprised at the grunt the 36 volt- 350-watt motor had, the only problem with it is on pedal-assist it just shuts down, the funny thing is it still responds to throttle, that bike may be my 2 wd trike in the future. I am too slow to be running over 20 mph these days( these past concussions seem to be having an effect these days)

 

[Marcela]

Used to run nylon gears on karts with around 26 hp. For comparison.

 

[kmccune]

Used to run nylon gears on karts with around 26 hp. For comparison.

Good point, we have a tendency to "overthink" some things at the expense of enjoyment.

 

[AHicks]

Is that a DD motor? I would love to be using those components my budget does not allow( maybe some day) that controller upgrade turned the XC100 into a little tiger that doesn't give up. I bought a "Peacedove" for the step-thru and steel frame, was pleasantly surprised at the grunt the 36 volt- 350-watt motor had, the only problem with it is on pedal-assist it just shuts down, the funny thing is it still responds to throttle, that bike may be my 2 wd trike in the future. I am too slow to be running over 20 mph these days( these past concussions seem to be having an effect these days)

Wandering off topic a bit, so I'll be brief. No, the MAC is a geared hub, a VERY peppy geared hub! No need for speed here either. I'm rarely pedaling (to engage the PAS) on either bike over 13-14mph. Where I like/need serious power is when climbing some of the hills around here. Hauling this 300lb butt up some of them has been a challenge for DD hub motors - even the 48v 1500w motor I had originally before replacing it with the MAC.

Back on topic, my understanding after a lot of reading on the topic is that there were NO failures of the nylon geared Ultras. It was only the concern of POSSIBLE failure when the Ultra was run WAY over it's OEM rated power, that caused Bafang to retool and go to metal gears. IMHO, that was a BIG mistake (taking the concerns of a few users over the vast majority of users).

Rather than do that, if there was a concern over failures running way over OEM ratings (1600w), let THOSE guys do what they need to do to solve the issue with an optional gear that would hold under those conditions. These guys are happy spending serious money on aftermarket controllers that will allow them to run the big power. THEY should be the ones concerned about spending the money on a gear to hold under those conditions.

That would have left the rest of us, that would have been totally happy while running SILENTLY at levels under 1600w with the original plastic gear, a much better solution to a non-event. Now, the few that are running exotic power levels are grinning, while the rest of us get to listen to this drive - even though we are in the VAST majority.

 

[Ebiker33]

Wandering off topic a bit, so I'll be brief. No, the MAC is a geared hub, a VERY peppy geared hub! No need for speed here either. I'm rarely pedaling (to engage the PAS) on either bike over 13-14mph. Where I like/need serious power is when climbing some of the hills around here. Hauling this 300lb butt up some of them has been a challenge for DD hub motors - even the 48v 1500w motor I had originally before replacing it with the MAC.

Back on topic, my understanding after a lot of reading on the topic is that there were NO failures of the nylon geared Ultras. It was only the concern of POSSIBLE failure when the Ultra was run WAY over it's OEM rated power, that caused Bafang to retool and go to metal gears. IMHO, that was a BIG mistake (taking the concerns of a few users over the vast majority of users).

Rather than do that, if there was a concern over failures running way over OEM ratings (1600w), let THOSE guys do what they need to do to solve the issue with an optional gear that would hold under those conditions. These guys are happy spending serious money on aftermarket controllers that will allow them to run the big power. THEY should be the ones concerned about spending the money on a gear to hold under those conditions.

That would have left the rest of us, that would have been totally happy while running SILENTLY at levels under 1600w with the original plastic gear, a much better solution to a non-event. Now, the few that are running exotic power levels are grinning, while the rest of us get to listen to this drive - even though we are in the VAST majority.

But there was some failures, enough for Bafang to make the move see this video of a repair of said failure.

I think a combinations of variables can contribute to Ultra's ability to kill components; 1500W at instant full throttle, in the wrong gear, going uphill can easily kill chains, gears, and IGH

 

[AHicks]

Willing to admit that it's not impossible to take out a composite gear (not a plastics guru, but pretty sure they aren't Teflon?). Clearly that gear was destroyed. IMHO, they left the most important part of that failure out of the video. Which was, how, exactly, was that gear destroyed?

 

[Marcela]

Good point, we have a tendency to "overthink" some things at the expense of enjoyment.

We had choice of aluminum or nylon. Aluminum would get chewed up pretty well with the chain where the nylon had some glide to it. Possibly because it was molded with graphite or something similar. Don’t remember the longevity in comparing them.

 

[Marcela]

Internal bronze gears would be a good choice as bronze is self lubricating if the right choice is made. Some are harder and lot of different properties available. Imagine cost comes into play also.

 

[Ebiker33]

Bronze is a non-ferrous metal regardless of type, I have a bronze watch made out one the hardest bronze alloys made, we actually
went through a similar process on a watch forum to get that specific alloy of bronze. It still scratches and dents.

 

[ElevenAD]

Good point, we have a tendency to "overthink" some things at the expense of enjoyment.

well your not really overthinking because they do get chewed up from time to time,This guy says the metal gear he is using i just as quiet as the nylon gear?

 

[Ebiker33]

well your not really overthinking because they do get chewed up from time to time,the Ultra is beast of a motor! im just not sure what type of riding would cause this?

The same type that snaps chains, somebody was saying, gun the ultra via the throttle even at a restricted 750W going uphill in the wrong gear and you can do plenty of damage.
User error sure, one ultra rider said he broke three chains in one month, I am sure he upgraded his chain, just not his style of riding.

 

[ElevenAD]

The same type that snaps chains, somebody was saying, gun the ultra via the throttle even at a restricted 750W going uphill in the wrong gear and you can do plenty of damage.
User error sure, one ultra rider said he broke three chains in one month, I am sure he upgraded his chain, just not his style of riding.

i guess i just dont ever push my bikes as hard as i thought, i pedal most of the time and always use my gears,both my middrives are 160nm bikes but i have never damaged any drivetrain parts or snapped a chain in 2000miles of riding, i think maybe some guys try to ride these high power middrives like scooters or Hubdrive bikes?

 

[Ebiker33]

i guess i just dont ever push my bikes as hard as i thought, i pedal most of the time and always use my gears,both my middrives are 160nm bikes but i have never damaged any drivetrain parts or snapped a chain in 2000miles of riding, i think maybe some guys try to ride these high power middrives like scooters or Hubdrive bikes?

After extensive testing Watt Wagons limited the power output to 750W for throttle only, peddling it will go up 2300W.
Their testing found that improper throttling technique was killing components over 750W. A guy was testing a brand new Sondors which was limited to 750W but could be changed in the LCD screen and unlocked to 1500W, guess what, he snapped a chain on his first ride out. The tester took ownership of the error saying it was their fault for pushing it up hill with wrong gear on the throttle. They corrected their technique and no more busted chains.
If you do a conversion of NM for power it's over 1400 inch lbs of torque, some really high end powerful cordless drills are now producing that much power, if it catches in a piece of material it can throw a man off a ladder.
It's alot of power.

 

[AHicks]

well your not really overthinking because they do get chewed up from time to time,This guy says the metal gear he is using i just as quiet as the nylon gear?

We BOTH know first hand that's absolute B.S. don't we!!

As well, for most of us I think, tearing up the drive line (breaking chains!) is something that's not very likely. Possible maybe, but not very likely. That's much more likely going to be an aggressive rider playing with way over the top power settings. For instance, I normally spend most of my time in 4th and 5th, going to 7 or 8 for cruise. I've found the bike accelerates easily from a stop in 4th and 5th gears - without pulling an excessive amount of power (indicating the motor is working hard). I've been known to use full throttle briefly to accelerate this 300lb butt across a busy road - while starting in 4th or 5th gear. It takes a couple seconds, but I may pull in excess of 1000w in that process. Haven't broken anything yet!

Using that same scenario, if the bike's controller were set up more aggressively, with full available power coming on immediately for instance, that might change things - maybe. My thought anyway, FWIW. -Al

 

[TForan]

I still have the nylon gears in my 2017 Biktrix Ultra. No problems and dead quiet. If it fails, I have the metals gears on the shelf. Roshan sent them to me free of charge because he loves me and wants me to be happy !