Deciding between the Juiced RCS or the Rize RX and RX Pro (suggestions to other bikes welcomed).

[HiddenProdige]

After a couple months of researching ebikes, I believe I've narrowed it down to about 3 choices (kind of). I first narrowed it down to the juiced ripcurrent s (rcs), as it provided excellent on and off road performance, with excellent range. However, recently I've discovered that a fair amount of people switched from buying the juiced rcs to buying either the rize rx or rx pro (is the only difference between the two the tires?). I'd prefer to not having buyers regret so I was wondering if the performance on and of road of the rize rx and rx pro is enough to justify the extra $1000 in cost or will the rcs be a nice sweet spot? Similarly, is the quickness of the power delivery of the torque sensor mid drive enough to justify the extra $1000 cost of the torque senor hub drive? The area I live in is a mix of both hills and flat lands, however there are more flatlands than hills. I also weigh about 240 lbs, as I know that will efect the performance of the motor. If there is anything less than about $3500 that can provide the same performance and features as those two it would be appreciated as well (hardtail or full suspension only please). The primary purpose of the bike is for exercise, fun, and recreation.

 

[ElevenAD]

After a couple months of researching ebikes, I believe I've narrowed it down to about 3 choices (kind of). I first narrowed it down to the juiced ripcurrent s (rcs), as it provided excellent on and off road performance, with excellent range. However, recently I've discovered that a fair amount of people switched from buying the juiced rcs to buying either the rize rx or rx pro (is the only difference between the two the tires?). I'd prefer to not having buyers regret so I was wondering if the performance on and of road of the rize rx and rx pro is enough to justify the extra $1000 in cost or will the rcs be a nice sweet spot? Similarly, is the quickness of the power delivery of the torque sensor mid drive enough to justify the extra $1000 cost of the torque senor hub drive? The area I live in is a mix of both hills and flat lands, however there are more flatlands than hills. I also weigh about 240 lbs, as I know that will efect the performance of the motor. If there is anything less than about $3500 that can provide the same performance and features as those two it would be appreciated as well (hardtail or full suspension only please). The primary purpose of the bike is for exercise, fun, and recreation.

I think the RX is only $3200 and its worth it imo, it has an Ultra and the option to add a second battery pack. I would also research Customer service for both companies before making a purchase. I have had good CS experiences with Rize but i have never owned a Juiced bike so i cant really comment.

 

[HiddenProdige]

Thank you both for replying, I think my main concern is that people with the 750 watt (peaking at 1300 watts) Rize X (which build and performance is nearly identical to the Juiced RCS) say the power difference between the rize x and rize rx is not significant enough to justify spending $1,000 extra.

 

[AHicks]

I think the answer might depend on what kind of performance you are expecting (willing to pay for?), especially when climbing. The Ultra is pretty much unchallenged by anything else when talking climbing ability. From there it's all talk about "good enough".

We have a member here with both a '21 Rize X and an RX Pro fatty (Marty). Hopefully he'll stop by and comment with his impressions.

I have an older ('17) custom (RAD City) I built up using a 1000w MAC 12t geared hub motor (now nearly impossible to find). That motor works pretty awesome in the hills I ride in, which are the rolling coastal type that can be pretty steep, but never real long (1/2-3/4 mile tops). Even so, the urge for more power happened one day, so I also have a '21 RX Pro that's been converted to a "semi fatty" with 27.5x2.8 street tires on it. Just like the older MAC powered bike, it'll climb anything you point it at, with a certain authority while doing that. I would just comment that the Ultra is an absolute torque monster, able to accelerate from a stop smoothly even in 5th or 6th gear (as long as you aren't in too big a hurry, it's fine!).

Noteworthy, because I love confusing this issue , is the fact that the bike that might be my favorite would be a 55lb 500w geared hub bike that's used primarily in a relatively flat area. It has an aftermarket controller able to poke the 500w motor with about 1000w, making for some pretty "sporty" performance (to easily catch your riding partner or cross a busy road for instance), but you need to keep your wits about you for if you provide a 500w motor with 1000w for more than a few seconds you could have a smoke trail following you..... think nitrous oxide in an automotive application. Light weight makes for great handling, especially in tight areas.

And last, just to see if I can confuse things any further , I can share that the geared hub bike will be easier to ride than the mid drive. With the geared hub, you climb on and go. The mid drive, to be ridden properly, is going to demand you pay way more attention to what gear you are in.....

-Al (6'2"/315)

 

[HiddenProdige]

Thank you all and thanks for all of the confusion as well. About how fast could any of you go on both the hub and mid drive, is their really a difference between the two? Also for tires is the handling of the fat tires good for general riding or is it better to switch out the tires for something different. Both hubs and mid drive have both pros and cons, but it seems (to me at least) the main difference is that the mid drive is to be ridden more like a normal bike right?

 

[AHicks]

Tires is a can of worms with few generic all around rules. Too many if's, ands, buts, and maybes with a few "it depends". I'll share that knobby types are noisy on paved surfaces. That's a given. And it's also a given rolling resistance should be considered.

For geared hub v. mid drive speed, I don't know that it makes much difference what drive type you're considering. All else being equal, I think both will be pretty similar.

A geared hub can be driven in brain dead mode, where a mid drive is going to demand more attention. Having both, I can safely say that there's little thought required on my part which bike an inexperienced rider is going to get if they show up at my place and we decide to go for a ride. My wife is an experienced rider, though not very mechanically inclined. She MUCH prefers the geared hub bikes for their relative simplicity where shifting is often an option. Don't underestimate her too much. If you put her on an ATV with manual shifting, she'll be right on your butt. She just prefers the brain dead attributes of the hub drive for laid back riding. -Al

 

[HiddenProdige]

Thank you again for responding, in your opinion do you think it would better to get the model with the most power now and not have to worry about about upgrading for several years, or to buy an experience the lower powered and eventually upgrade in the future?

 

[AHicks]

Oh boy, good question.
Many of us have really hesitated (are really hesitant) to make the leap of faith necessary when buying the first bike. Of these same people, MANY find an e-bike a game changer for the better. Once they see how well they fit into their lives, that it's not ending up in some dark corner of a shed, that the investment is good one, and they start looking at their NEXT bike, what IT should look like. Goes without saying these people are MUCH more educated buyers, and that giant leap of faith is no longer necessary when consiering bike#2. Also goes without saying that this second bike will be nicer than the first, and also more expensive.

That in mind, there's something to be said about buying a bike, knowing full well it's being purchased to learn on. Maybe buying the second bike first is NOT always the better plan.

There's also the thought that the Ultra powered bikes, with their current CANbus production status, may be in limbo for a while while Bafang and the market as a whole, figure out what to do about the programming issue. It's for that reason, I'm thinking the decision to go hub drive right now might not be a bad one. That would give you time to do more research, possibly provide more insight regarding what is going on there, and who knows what's coming out tomorrow....

 

[HiddenProdige]

Thank you and all things considered I think I'm gonna go with the geared hub and eventually down the line upgrade if I need to. Now I think my final question would be about purchasing either the Juiced Ripcurrent S or Juice CrossCurrent X. I was wondering what would be better for my needs if I'm doing about 65% on road and about 35% off road the hybrid style of the CrossCurrent X or the Fat tires of the Rip Current S. Off road where I'm at is sand like dirt, both paved and unpaved alike.

 

[HiddenProdige]

Thank you and all things considered I think I'm gonna go with the geared hub and eventually down the line upgrade if I need to. Now I think my final question would be about purchasing either the Juiced Ripcurrent S or Juice CrossCurrent X. I was wondering what would be better for my needs if I'm doing about 65% on road and about 35% off road the hybrid style of the CrossCurrent X or the Fat tires of the Rip Current S. Off road where I'm at is sand like dirt, both paved and unpaved alike.

Sand and gravel roads for off roading.

 

[AHicks]

I tried a fatty and didn't care for the HUGE feeling the bike had. After a lot of trial and error with 3 different sets of tires, I ended up converting the bike to a 27.5+ running the best compromise (hybrid) tire for my purposes - the Schwalbe Super Moto-X 27.5x2.8" street tires. MUCH lighter feeling with quicker response, less rolling resistance, and the ride is outstanding.....

Some like those huge tires. They didn't work for me. Not often mentioned, but well known among those that have them for sure, a fatty is a huge bike.....

I recently responded to another string here that you might find interesting where the Rize MD came up. A recent reply from Rize regarding this bike says they are using a UART based BBS02 motor. That being the case, it might be worth your trouble checking in to it further. -Al

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Dost Kope versus Rize MD

I have been looking at various ebikes with a 750 watt md drive motor. I'm looking at the Rise MD and the Dost Kope. They both have a Bafang BBSO2 motor. I assume the Rize is shipped by their California distribution center, you pay sales tax of $162 in TX = $2,761. The Dost $2,999, no taxes...

electricbikereview.com

 

[linklemming]

Thank you and all things considered I think I'm gonna go with the geared hub and eventually down the line upgrade if I need to. Now I think my final question would be about purchasing either the Juiced Ripcurrent S or Juice CrossCurrent X. I was wondering what would be better for my needs if I'm doing about 65% on road and about 35% off road the hybrid style of the CrossCurrent X or the Fat tires of the Rip Current S. Off road where I'm at is sand like dirt, both paved and unpaved alike.

Im guessing a geared hub will be best for you (and cheaper initially). I wont debate the pros and cons of each as so many here do repeatedly. I will say that I have both mid drives and hubs (4 ebikes total) and they are both great and 70+% of my riding is offroad with 'typical' grades of 4-6% with a few 10% grades and up to 30% on some trails for short distances. For my strictly MTB rides, I have a Brose Based mid-drive hardtail.

As to the CCX vs RipCurrnet
I ran my CCX exclusively as a gravel bike (never rode on the stock tires). I removed the fenders and racks and put on Schwalbe Marathons Plus MTBx 2.25F and 2.1R on the stock rims at 30psiF/35psiR and put on 4k on the bike in this configuration. The 2.25(measured at 2.1) was at the high end of width for a 19mm inner width rim but worked. The bike did have a small tendency to fall into the turn a tad on initial turn in but was a non issue once you got used to it. The 2.1(measured 1.8) was about as big as one could go in the rear without rubbing. You could run a 2.1 in the front if you would like.

I have ridden fatties and personally dont like them but many people do. At one point, I was considering buying a RipCurrent and then converting to 29x2.8 (roughly same overall height at 26x4) but then decided to just DIY my next ebikes (1 MAC 10t and 1 BBSHD both running 52V 1500watts) both running 27.5x2.6.

 

[HiddenProdige]

I did some more research overnight and on these threads and it always seems I find new information that puts my decision into question. In all of you opinions do you think a 750 watt hub motor (that peaks around 1300 watts) good for the riding area I live in with my weight of around 250lbs. Or should I invest invest the mid drive. My only qualms with the majority of the bafang mid drives (except pretty much the Ultra I think) is that they do not have a torque sensor. I've personally never tried a cadence sensor ebike before, but I enjoyed the natural feel of the torque sensor (if they feel similar let me know please).The area I live in is relatively flat on one side and hilly (about a medium amount) on the other where hills vary in size but can get pretty steep.

 

[AHicks]

The torque sensing bike you are used to is?

In my experience there are 2 types of cadence only sensing. One, the most common by far, is speed based. Each PAS level has a max speed assigned to it. Many complaints about low speed control in PAS1. They're too fast, and they can't be slowed. MOST speed based systems will take you right up to 10-13mph if you continue to pedal long enough. Makes no difference how hard you pedal. If you want to go faster you go with a higher PAS level.

The second type is a power based system, and both of the ones I'm familiar with are consumer adjustable (the aftermarket KT controllers, and the built in UART based Bafang controllers on the BBSxx and Ultra series) . Here, speed has NOTHING to do with anything going on, until you reach a max speed if there is one set up (frequently 20mph). The way this system works is by assigning a certain amount of power to each PAS level. That amount of power won't change regardless of speed. It starts out small (75-150w) in PAS1, so 6 mph speed is easy. At 20mph - you're still getting that same 75-150w you started with. Need more assistance/power for that hill coming up, or that change in wind direction? Go to the next PAS level. This system is dramatically different than the speed based PAS, and very popular with those riding it. Regarding the speed vs. power option in the Bafang setup, the speed based option is almost universally used.....

Point here is you can't assume all cadence based systems are the same. There are a couple of fairly unique power based systems that really work well.

IF you were to go hub drive, and you didn't care for the speed based PAS that comes on it, updating to the KT based controller and display isn't that expensive (100.), but they can be challenging for those not in possession of decent DIY skills - possibly including some soldering.

Can't make the call regarding your situation with the hills. That one's going to be on you. What did you think of the Rize MD?

 

[HiddenProdige]

It was a Giant Talon E if I remember correctly. The Giant bikes do have a smooth delivery however I felt for my weight at least it wasn't providing enough power for me to see a significant difference in performance and to be impressed by, (it was only for about 10 -15 mins so maybe my view is skewed). And the RIZE MD looked like a very appealing package for that price point for what it offers, my only qualms was that it was a speed and cadence sensor for the pedal assist, so I was under the assumption that it would not have a very "natural" feel to it.

 

[HiddenProdige]

I was also looking through the forums about the "big 4" in mid drives, however as I was looking it seems that the absolute peak was round 750-800 watts I think. The main difference between those and the bafang I got at least that they were more efficient (there words not mine) and felt more "natural." I was wondering if that the "efficiency" and "smoothness" was enough to justify the higher price point and drastic reduction in power anywhere from 25% to 50%.

 

[AHicks]

I was also looking through the forums about the "big 4" in mid drives, however as I was looking it seems that the absolute peak was round 750-800 watts I think. The main difference between those and the bafang I got at least that they were more efficient (there words not mine) and felt more "natural." I was wondering if that the "efficiency" and "smoothness" was enough to justify the higher price point and drastic reduction in power anywhere from 25% to 50%.

As I do all of my own work, I'm likely going to have a little different slant on things. Call it old school or whatever, but the point is I will not buy anything with proprietary parts that must be serviced by a dealer. When you start talking "big 4" that's exactly what you are stepping in to. If a "big 4" dealer tells you the part you need is "$xxx$" you cannot shop that price around - they're only available from a dealer. A bike built using non-proprietary parts will nearly always have everything available pretty much anywhere parts are sold.

Regarding "refined" It's going to depend on what you are comparing the "big 4" to. As compared to a 900 dollar bike purchased on Amazon, I would have to agree, mostly due to the crappy (speed based) controller programming I KNOW you're going to get. If we compare them to a bike like that that's had a KT controller conversion, or to a Bafang mid drive with a controller tweaked by somebody that knows what they are doing, they may not come off as being so refined.....

Too, the big 4 are designed to be run in the European 250 watts max environment - and there are no throttles allowed. They ARE down on power as a rule, and with some of the stuff available state side, the may be WAY down on power.....

That's my take anyway. There will be others that don't agree. Of those, my bet is few do their own service work. They take the bike to a dealer for service....

 

[HiddenProdige]

Alright did some more research and actually went out for about 2 hrs to see the hills I'm going to be riding on, and I decided to go with the mid drive motor. The hills I have can both be steep, long or a combination of the two, making the mid drive more efficient in my case. Now for the motor I believe I am at preference to a torque sensor for the motor, and I believe the only available for Bafang is the ultra. I've never tried a cadence, but if there is a cadence sensor for Bafang's mid drive that is a power cadence sensor that @AHicks mentioned for an ebike please let me know. I'm trying to go for a more "natural" feel. From what I've seen the "big 4" don't offer the same power outputs as Bafang, and the Bafang can be tuned to bring on power smoother so I believe that's the motor I was going for.

 

[AHicks]

Alright did some more research and actually went out for about 2 hrs to see the hills I'm going to be riding on, and I decided to go with the mid drive motor. The hills I have can both be steep, long or a combination of the two, making the mid drive more efficient in my case. Now for the motor I believe I am at preference to a torque sensor for the motor, and I believe the only available for Bafang is the ultra. I've never tried a cadence, but if there is a cadence sensor for Bafang's mid drive that is a power cadence sensor that @AHicks mentioned for an ebike please let me know. I'm trying to go for a more "natural" feel. From what I've seen the "big 4" don't offer the same power outputs as Bafang, and the Bafang can be tuned to bring on power smoother so I believe that's the motor I was going for.

What I'm talking about in the Bafang BBSxx and Ultra motors is a single parameter/switch within the controller programming. It offers you the ability to switch power and speed based cadence sensing. YOU PICK which you want to use. Beauty is, you can try it both ways. There's little doubt here which you'll like better, but it's your call.

If you decide on the Bafang mid plan, holler and I'll point you at the specifics involved. Plenty of support available here.....

 

[HiddenProdige]

I'm all ears. Looking for at least 750 watts (the more the merrier), with at least a front suspension (dual is more than welcome), for under $3500 (preferably lower ). The best value for the performance and parts I'll receive pretty much.