Creo SL vs Vado SL

[mschwett]

At the $4500 sale price in the US, the aluminum E5 bike is pretty hard to beat, especially if you want to get a little loud with it once in awhile out in the woods, and use racks on it. All responses on these sorts of subjects tend to the openly subjective, as it this one, but it worked for me and saved a ton of cash. I put 42mm tires on it and a 42 tooth chainring and haven’t looked back.

Obviously the comp carbon expert EVO with the 50 tooth cassette has a certain charm, but $9000? Blimey!

the comp carbon is widely available at shops in the US for $5,250, at least in the L and larger sizes I just looked at. $750 more for the carbon bike is a no brainer for anyone planning on long road rides, IMO, unless a lot of cargo is required!

 

[gpburdell]

the comp carbon is widely available at shops in the US for $5,250, at least in the L and larger sizes I just looked at. $750 more for the carbon bike is a no brainer for anyone planning on long road rides, IMO, unless a lot of cargo is required!

Which shops, please?

Specialized site shows 920 miles away for the nearest medium 2021 Comp Carbon (in Massachusetts). There’s a Large slightly closer in Pennsylvania, only 680 miles away. No Smalls showing as available in store.

Yes, there are closer XLs but buying two sizes too big would be wasted money.

The somewhat more plentiful but still a couple hours distant 2022 models are $6000.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Guys, I read this thread with great interest. You have opened my eyes to many aspects of Creo I was not aware before! For instance, the low structural weight limit of Creos in general, or issues to install the rack in particular. Currently, I weigh 96 kg (around 212 lbs). Even because of that alone the Creo is not for me!

Now, it made me thinking... what is the structural weight limit of Vado SL? Anyone?

P.S. And think I could have bought the SL 5.0... For me, a heavy rider and my cargo!

Maybe the aluminum frames all go to the Vado SLs??

Are you positive Allan it is the same frame?

 

[mschwett]

…
Are you positive Allan it is the same frame?

it’s definitely not the same frame. the creo carbon and e5 share the same geometry, which is different geometry by quite a bit from the Vado SL, which was designed for flat bars and a more upright riding position. there are many differences, readily apparent even just by looking at them.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

it’s definitely not the same frame. the creo carbon and e5 share the same geometry, which is different geometry by quite a bit from the Vado SL, which was designed for flat bars and a more upright riding position. there are many differences, readily apparent even just by looking at them.

View attachment 150074

View attachment 150073

The Vado SL has a much longer, more stable geometry. Which makes it great for trail and forestry road type riding. In fact the wheelbase and slacker head angle & long chain stays are similiar to traditional (older hard tail/rigid) MTBs. Or something like the Surly Ghost Grappler an MTB inspired drop bar, gravel or monster cross bike:

Vado SL and Ghost Grappler:

Ghost Grappler with flat bars. It has of course much wider clearance for fat tyres than the Vado SL:

Vado SL V Creo, you can see immediately the Creo is shorter:

 

[Saratoga Dave]

I was referring to the Turbo Creo SL Expert EVO (what a mouthfull) specifically, for it’s 12 speed 11-50 cassette and a whoop-de-do ETAP shifting. That one is nine grand all day long.

 

[mschwett]

Which shops, please?

Specialized site shows 920 miles away for the nearest medium 2021 Comp Carbon (in Massachusetts). There’s a Large slightly closer in Pennsylvania, only 680 miles away. No Smalls showing as available in store.

Yes, there are closer XLs but buying two sizes too big would be wasted money.

The somewhat more plentiful but still a couple hours distant 2022 models are $6000.

i show one in acton, medium, black. they do not seem hard to find, but i'm sure in some parts of the country the nearest is a few hundred miles.

 

[gpburdell]

i show one in acton, medium, black. they do not seem hard to find, but i'm sure in some parts of the country the nearest is a few hundred miles.

View attachment 150083

Turns out that is the one closest to me too.

Rather a bit further from Atlanta though…

… and may be the only one east of the Mississippi…

 

[mschwett]

Turns out that is the one closest to me too.

Rather a bit further from Atlanta though…



… and may be the only one east of the Mississippi…

ah lol, i interpreted your post that you were IN massachussetts! medium definitely harder to find - one in cali, a couple in the midwest, one in boston. not unreasonably far if it's the one you really want, i suppose!

 

[gpburdell]

ah lol, i interpreted your post that you were IN massachussetts! medium definitely harder to find - one in cali, a couple in the midwest, one in boston. not unreasonably far if it's the one you really want, i suppose!

ah, yes, that explains it then.

distance unfortunately adds cost - time/fuel to go get it or cost to get shop to ship to a local store for them to build and deliver. Eats up a lot of the $750 delta to a 2022 comp carbon when there’s couple within a two hour drive.

Still sort of leaning towards the E5 for my specific intended uses. Plus I can buy it directly thru my LBS - the confirmed today they can still get the E5 I’d choose.

Waiting on another matter to be settled before I will pull the trigger, whichever way I go.

 

[JustRiding]

A lighter frame may get you more speed = more miles but usually comes at the cost of less sturdiness.

I own a Vado SL 4.0 EQ myself and use it for everyday commuting, groceries shopping and for trips when the weather is rough / roads dirty.
Earlier this year I wanted to get a bike just for workouts that is lighter, runs on thinner wheels and has a more advanced gear set.

I looked into the Creo, but felt that Creos are still on the heavier side of e-racing bikes, plus the prices for the carbon models were very steep and I also wanted an engine that easier disengages / is less noisy than the Specialized 1.1(although on my Vado I really like the engine).

Finally went for a Scott Addict eRide with carbonframe, new Mahle X20 hub egine and electronic gear shifting. It is a nice bike a I really love to do my work outs on it . It is really fast and most times I ride well beyond the 25 km/h, so the engine rarely kicks in and the battery - albeit smaller than on the Vado SL - holds for ages without even needing a range extender.

But it is of course a completely different concept... no rack from luggage, using click pedals, thin wheels ands a carbon frame. you need good pavement to roll on and should avoid bigger bumps or dirty roads with small stones / shattered glass that will much faster make your tire go flat than on the Vado SL (had this "pleasure" already two times this year when crossing Copenhagen city centre on larger tours). Those carbon frame bikes with thin wheels are quite fragile

You could of course take an EVO model, but then the difference to a VADO SL may not be that big as you get thicker wheels again.

So in a nutshell, a carbon frame e-racing bike does not replace what you can do with the Vado SL, i.e. everyday commuting (especially when riding in the city during rush hour or rough weather) and any luggage carrying. Having said that, surely the Creo is an interesting bike but for serious e-racing bike workouts, there are lighter and slightly cheaper models on the market than the Creo.

 

[gpburdell]

@JustRiding I’m curious which mid-drive assist-up-to-28mph electric road bikes you're finding which are both lighter and less expensive than the Creo models? (and which broadcast as much data via ANT+ & BLE)

The Mahle hub motor assist cuts out at 20 mph, as does the assist on the Fazua 50 based bikes. Not to mention the many reports of issues with that system.

The new TQ motor is promising but also not cheap.

Granted, you live where the assist limit levels the field somewhat, but do remember that’s not the case for many others who participate in this forum.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@JustRiding I’m curious which mid-drive assist-up-to-28mph electric road bikes you're finding which are both lighter and less expensive than the Creo models?

We officially have our e-bikes restricted to 25 km/h in Europe so it would be hard for a Danish person to answer that.

 

[mschwett]

@JustRiding I’m curious which mid-drive assist-up-to-28mph electric road bikes you're finding which are both lighter and less expensive than the Creo models? (and which broadcast as much data via ANT+ & BLE)

The Mahle hub motor assist cuts out at 20 mph, as does the assist on the Fazua 50 based bikes. Not to mention the many reports of issues with that system.

The new TQ motor is promising but also not cheap.

Granted, you live where the assist limit levels the field somewhat, but do remember that’s not the case for many others who participate in this forum.

the new TQ is probably the only 28mph-but-lighter e-road bike choice out there. none are significantly cheaper when you compare similar groupsets.

that said… although it’s fun to get a few MPH boost over 20, the real purpose of these things is to flatten climbs and headwinds, IMO. the extra weight doesn’t matter much on level ground, and 250-300w motors only give you a few MPH at huge battery cost. i would definitely consider both the X20 and TQ to be superior to the creo SL drive system in a few ways - weight and integration being the biggest two - but only time will tell how well they really work! that 25lb pinarello is impressive.

 

[Allan47.7339]

it’s definitely not the same frame. the creo carbon and e5 share the same geometry, which is different geometry by quite a bit from the Vado SL, which was designed for flat bars and a more upright riding position. there are many differences, readily apparent even just by looking at them.

View attachment 150074View attachment 150073

I agree they are not exactly the same frame but Specialized and most manufactures do not post enough data to accurately draw the two frames. The Vado SL looks like a value engineered E5 Version 2 with some simplifications near the head tube to reduce the manufacturing cost for the larger parts batch run and lower price point of the Vado SL. The data tables on their model geometry pages shows mostly derived dimensions and they can be changed by different fork size and fork headset spacers or seat posts. I would not be able to say the geometry of the bare frame is significantly different. We don't even know if the two frames in the photos are nominally the same size. They do say on the support site the chainstay of the E5 is longer than the FACT 11r carbon frame along with kick stand and fender mounts. Why would a Creo have a kick stand or was it orignally designed to be used on the Vado SL but came out too expensive? The parts list on the support site even shows some parts shared between models for example S192300032 FRK MY20 CREO SL (SIZE LG) & VADO SL 5.0 (SIZE SM) STN CARBON.

I really like the Bike Insights web site but we don't know if the submitters to the database used a frame carefully measured on a table or if they just drew it from published marketing data.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

S192300032 FRK MY20 CREO SL (SIZE LG) & VADO SL 5.0 (SIZE SM) STN CARBON.

This is the fork designed to be used with Futureshock 1.5.

 

[mschwett]

I agree they are not exactly the same frame but Specialized and most manufactures do not post enough data to accurately draw the two frames. The Vado SL looks like a value engineered E5 Version 2 with some simplifications near the head tube to reduce the manufacturing cost for the larger parts batch run and lower price point of the Vado SL. The data tables on their model geometry pages shows mostly derived dimensions and they can be changed by different fork size and fork headset spacers or seat posts. I would not be able to say the geometry of the bare frame is significantly different. We don't even know if the two frames in the photos are nominally the same size. They do say on the support site the chainstay of the E5 is longer than the FACT 11r carbon frame along with kick stand and fender mounts. Why would a Creo have a kick stand or was it orignally designed to be used on the Vado SL but came out too expensive? The parts list on the support site even shows some parts shared between models for example S192300032 FRK MY20 CREO SL (SIZE LG) & VADO SL 5.0 (SIZE SM) STN CARBON.

I really like the Bike Insights web site but we don't know if the submitters to the database used a frame carefully measured on a table or if they just drew it from published marketing data.

not sure what you’re getting at here… no doubt there are many similarities. they’re both aluminum e bike frames made by specialized.

but one is for a drop bar road bike, the other for a flat bar hybrid/fitness bike. the geometry is substantially different due to the bars. i am sure they are of similar quality and share manufacturing processes.

 

[mschwett]

it is interesting how much the geometry of the frame varies for the two bikes. not surprising i suppose since they have different intended purposes, but remember that in many ways they're very similar. same motor, same battery, same wheels, 1x drivetrains, same frame material and basic configuration.

the photos (or renderings?) on the specialized site are quite undistorted, and a quick overlay in photoshop confirms that both are taken/rendered of a size medium bike. measured dimensions are within a half a percent of the predicted values, based on the known 622mm outer diameter of the wheels.

the vado is much longer, and the riding position relative to the front tire is much further back. of course stems and seats can be adjusted to reduce this difference, but fundamentally the frame is balanced around a different riding position. overlaid together, we see that every element of the frame is slightly different, most notably the distance from the crank to the front axle, which then triggers or is caused by different angles of the top and downtube, head tube, etc. it all makes sense given the nature of drop bars and flat bars, long road or gravel rides vs multipurpose riding, etc. one could outfit the vado with a zero offset seatpost, slide the seat forward, get a very long stem, and flip it upside down to start to bring the riding position closer to the creo (or vice versa!) but the fundamental handling characteristics driven by the wheelbase and head tube angles won't be changed by that.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

An interesting analysis!

one could outfit the vado with a zero offset seatpost

All these geometry matters seem to be complicated for a layman.

I equipped my Vado SL with the Redshift seatpost (that has some small setback offset), provided a longer stem (100 mm instead of 80), moved the stem maximum downwards and even slammed the stem -6 deg. Only moving the seat maximum rearward made my riding position pretty forward and relieved my aches. I understand it is not for everybody but it worked for me.

On the other hand, riding a stock Creo in the same size M made me return sore from the ride (neck, back).

Does your overlay picture prove the Creo has a longer reach than the Vado SL? Or, am I wrong?

 

[mschwett]

…

Does your overlay picture prove the Creo has a longer reach than the Vado SL? Or, am I wrong?

yes, quite a bit. to get lower you have to reach further, assuming your elbows are in line with your shoulders and not sticking out like big air brakes

one can’t assess bike fit on one ride, it’s pretty normal to find new things uncomfortable until the body adjusts, and of course it takes a bit of time or experience to adjust the bike properly.