Considering a Specialized, got a few questions

[GaryInCO]

A far bigger battery and a stronger motor on the 4.0. The battery alone was worth the extra money.

I agree it SHOULD be worthwhile. Do you believe the Range Calculator? It claims the bigger battery (710 vs 530 Wh) only gets you about 10-12% more range. But it also claims you get more range on hills than on flats, sooo...

I haven't tried the non-IGH Vado 3.0 yet (50 Nm) but I did a 10 mile ride on the Vado SL (35 Nm) and it did fine on small hills. I intended to take it up a 7% hill but my battery ran out too soon. But since the 35 Nm did fine on flatter rides, I suspect the 50 Nm of the 3.0 would do fine for me. I don't plan to climb any mountains. (Some people are crazy that way. Here in Colorado we have the Triple Bypass ride, a one-day 118-mile = 190km ride with 3 major mountain passes -- climbing 3200' = 975m, 4500' = 1370m, and 1500' = 450m, with peaks of 10500-12000' = 3200-3600m. And the truly insane do the Double Triple -- ride to the end, turn around, and ride back again the next day !!! https://www.triplebypass.org/)

+1. I used to own only one automatic gearbox car, the rest being manual,

That's fairly common in Europe, yes? It's very rare in the US. Very few people here choose to drive manual, and even fewer are as stubborn about it as I was. But very few drive Saabs for 37 years, race Porsches, etc.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Do you believe the Range Calculator?

Not

It claims the bigger battery (710 vs 530 Wh) only gets you about 10-12% more range.

The bigger battery gives 100*(710-530)/530 = 34% more.

I don't plan to climb any mountains.

Might happen some day A bigger battery also means less charging cycles so better battery longevity. You need to be aware the battery is the single most expensive e-bike component! As the battery is degrading, you would still have more juice in the bigger battery.

I suspect the 50 Nm of the 3.0 would do fine for me.

The fact your car has a powerful engine does not mean you must use it. It is the same with e-bikes. Having more powerful motor would enable you to reduce the assistance with the app but you would still have surplus for emergency situations. The Vado 4.0 motor can produce up to 470 W in the peak while the Vado 3.0 one is limited to 430 W. The more significant difference is the Boost Factor (3.2x for Vado 4.0) and (2.8x for Vado 3.0).

Can you revert your decision?

That's fairly common in Europe, yes? It's very rare in the US. Very few people here choose to drive manual, and even fewer are as stubborn about it as I was.

Yes, people mostly drive manual cars here (at least before the electric cars). My first encounter with the automatic gearbox occured not anywhere else but in the United States. We were on a business trip in Houston and around, and my old Norwegian boss eventually understood it was no life in the States without the car I felt quite confident driving an automatic Ford, only had to learn using the brake far more in the manual cars I used to drive since

 

[GaryInCO]

The bigger battery gives 100*(710-530)/530 = 34% more.

The label says it has 34% more Wh, yes. Does that actually translate to 34% more range? I don't know, but the Range Calculator says no. Seems odd that Specialized would promote a false range calculation.

The Vado 4.0 motor can produce up to 470 W in the peak while the Vado 3.0 one is limited to 430 W. The more significant difference is the Boost Factor (3.2x for Vado 4.0) and (2.8x for Vado 3.0).
Can you revert your decision?

10% more peak doesn't worry me. What exactly is the Boost Factor? Is that a multiplier on your input power? Only 14% more.

No decision yet. I'm still test-riding.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Does that actually translate to 34% more range?

Let me make a very accurate calculation based on nominal battery capacity and the fact you cannot use the battery for assistance below the 5% charge.
530 Wh * 0.95 = 503.5 Wh effective charge
710 Wh * 0.95 = 674.5 Wh effective charge
100 * (674.5 - 503.5)/674.5 = 25%. So if we take the effective battery charge, the bigger one will give you not 34 but 25% longer range. Such as 50 mi vs 40. The range for Specialized e-bikes directly depends on the battery charge, and trust me, my mileage on Vado and Vado SL is huge. I ride long trips and understand there is just the physics behind it. (I am a data nerd, haha).

10% more peak doesn't worry me. What exactly is the Boost Factor? Is that a multiplier on your input power? Only 14% more.

I do agree with you. Yes, the Boost Factor is the multiplier of your leg power into mechanical motor assistance. The motor of the 5.0 is a monster, compared (90 Nm, 4.1x, 565 W)

 

[AvalancheRun]

Yeah, that's some of what I was feeling. Thanks for clarifying it!

I doubt I'd like the Automatiq. Every car I owned for 50 years, from 16 until I got a Tesla last year, was a stick shift. Never liked automatic transmissions. I'm not usually a control freak but ...

Guess I'd better stick with the old-skool derailleurs.

There is a manual mode too, with 9 or so virtual gears accessed by a handlebar control (Cliq Pro). Anyways, the whole setup will cost around $350 so it adds to the price. Derailleur is the way to go for the vast majority of people.

I agree with Stefan on the 4.0, it's the sweet spot. 710 wh battery, but more importantly the 70 nm torque motor. That will be a major improvement over the 50 for steep hills, or grocery hauls -- or both!

My own ebike journey started this spring when we discovered that they allowed us to completely replace car trips (YMMV of course!) while having an absolute blast. We started biking 1.5-2 hours every single day, loved it so much, and quickly realized that we under-bought for our use. That said, if we were living in a flat area without the Texas heat we might not need e-bikes at all for most trips, so it's smart to think this through.
Any hills or parking garages near your Specialized store?

 

[GaryInCO]

So if we take the effective battery charge, the bigger one will give you not 34 but 25% longer range. Such as 50 mi vs 40. The range for Specialized e-bikes directly depends on the battery charge, and trust me, my mileage on Vado and Vado SL is huge. I ride long trips and understand there is just the physics behind it. (I am a data nerd, haha).
I do agree with you. Yes, the Boost Factor is the multiplier of your leg power into mechanical motor assistance. The motor of the 5.0 is a monster, compared (90 Nm, 4.1x, 565 W)

You are not the only nerd in this conversation. 25% is a significant difference, and significantly more than the calculator claims.

I agree the 90 Nm motor has a ridiculous amount of torque. If you want that much power, get a motorcycle !! That much oomph would be useful for the 10% climbs around here, but I really don't intend to ride those much. I think 70 Nm is more than I need.

My own ebike journey started this spring when we discovered that they allowed us to completely replace car trips (YMMV of course!) while having an absolute blast. We started biking 1.5-2 hours every single day, loved it so much, and quickly realized that we under-bought for our use. That said, if we were living in a flat area without the Texas heat we might not need e-bikes at all for most trips, so it's smart to think this through.
Any hills or parking garages near your Specialized store?

I expect most of my riding will be on bike trails and some on roads. (I really do NOT like riding on roads with idiots watching their phone instead of the road, and yahoos in giant pickups who think it's funny to "brush back" a biker.)

The hill I wanted to try with the Vado SL (about 6-7% for 0.7 mile) is about 30-35 mins from the shop. A bit long for a test ride, but they don't seem to mind. I just have to make sure the battery is well-charged before heading out this time.

 

[mschwett]

You are not the only nerd in this conversation. 25% is a significant difference, and significantly more than the calculator claims.

I agree the 90 Nm motor has a ridiculous amount of torque. If you want that much power, get a motorcycle !! That much oomph would be useful for the 10% climbs around here, but I really don't intend to ride those much. I think 70 Nm is more than I need.



I expect most of my riding will be on bike trails and some on roads. (I really do NOT like riding on roads with idiots watching their phone instead of the road, and yahoos in giant pickups who think it's funny to "brush back" a biker.)

The hill I wanted to try with the Vado SL (about 6-7% for 0.7 mile) is about 30-35 mins from the shop. A bit long for a test ride, but they don't seem to mind. I just have to make sure the battery is well-charged before heading out this time.

just keep in mind, as stefan has pointed out the large motor and larger battery will by default use more power than the smaller motor at the same amount of human input because the multiplication factor is higher. you’ll go faster - but the energy required to go a few MPH faster is much higher than you’d think! to achieve similar range you’ll want to pedal less hard or turn the assist settings down. the specialized system is very flexible and it’s very to easy to tune it to get an excellent range out of any of these bikes.

does anyone know how much more the 5 vs 4 vs 3 weigh? i assume it’s insignificant when climbing?

 

[GaryInCO]

does anyone know how much more the 5 vs 4 vs 3 weigh? i assume it’s insignificant when climbing?

You would think it was an industrial secret. They sure don't publicize the weights very well.

Best reference I've found is https://specialized.picturepark.com/Go/KejC9jbq/V/51311/1
It says the Vado 3.0 / 4.0 / 5.0 weigh 23.5 / 23.5 / 23.0 kg.

 

[AvalancheRun]

Also note that some companies quote the weight without battery.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

does anyone know how much more the 5 vs 4 vs 3 weigh?

Specialized started specifying e-bike weight in their website. For the size M:
Vado 5.0: 25.3 kg
Vado 4.0: 26.4 kg
Vado 3.0 24.9 kg.

I assume the 4/5 are somewhat heavier than the 3.0 because of the bigger battery. The 5.0 is probably more lightweight than 4.0 because of the better fork.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I agree the 90 Nm motor has a ridiculous amount of torque. If you want that much power, get a motorcycle !! That much oomph would be useful for the 10% climbs around here, but I really don't intend to ride those much. I think 70 Nm is more than I need.

My Vado 6.0 has the boost factor of 3.2x (same as the current Vado 4.0) but is also has 520 W peak power and 90 Nm. There are people who need that motor performance, for example commuters. I appreciate the strong motor of Vado 6.0 on my mountain vacations where I need to climb 14-19% (and install mountain gearing for the holidays!) On the other hand, I can climb 9% on my Vado SL as long as the climb is not very long (like, 500 metres).

I am sure the Vado 4.0 would be the best compromise.

 

[GaryInCO]

Specialized started specifying e-bike weight in their website.

Huh. Was that a recent change? I was looking all over for weights, and I thought I picked through every likely page on the Specialized site. Now it's there and easy to find.

 

[mschwett]

Huh. Was that a recent change? I was looking all over for weights, and I thought I picked through every likely page on the Specialized site. Now it's there and easy to find.

yep, with the latest model updates!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The change was introduced about the time Creo 2 had been announced (end of September). I completed my demo ride of the Diverge EVO on 9/29 and talked with the combined personnel of both Specialized stores of Warsaw who got together and were discussing the latest news. My favourite salesman proudly said: "See? Now we publish the bike weight in our website!"
Bicycle manufacturers were reluctant to publish e-bike weights as they thought the parameter might turn the potential buyer's attention to a competing product. Something has changed. Even Giant is giving their e-bike weight now! Trek does it, too!

I could also notice an interesting change in the way major bicycle brands present their products. Now, both Specialized and Giant have put E-Bikes as the first item in their menu. (Trek is slow about it).

This brand must have realised where its future is.

It is for Germany or Poland. US or UK still list e-bikes as the menu item #3.

 

[California]

The change was introduced about the time Creo 2 had been announced (end of September). I completed my demo ride of the Diverge EVO on 9/29 and talked with the combined personnel of both Specialized stores of Warsaw who got together and were discussing the latest news. My favourite salesman proudly said: "See? Now we publish the bike weight in our website!"
Bicycle manufacturers were reluctant to publish e-bike weights as they thought the parameter might turn the potential buyer's attention to a competing product. Something has changed. Even Giant is giving their e-bike weight now! Trek does it, too!

I regularly put the E-bike into the car with the battery on without any problems. The 'challenges' in doing so were similar to the recumbent in the former SUV having more to do with awkwardness than weight. You put in one wheel at a time and roll the bike into the vehicle, so you're not lifting the entire thing at once. I could see if the bike weighed 100 pounds could be a problem. But at least for me, a non-issue.

I could also notice an interesting change in the way major bicycle brands present their products. Now, both Specialized and Giant have put E-Bikes as the first item in their menu. (Trek is slow about it).

At least here in the US, E-bikes are selling fast for a variety of different users....

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I regularly put the E-bike into the car with the battery on without any problems.

It is not only getting the e-bike into the car that makes a heavy e-bike problematic.

 

[BEC111]

It is not only getting the e-bike into the car that makes a heavy e-bike problematic.

I need to mounting my bike on the rear garage wall so it’s off the ground. There isn’t enough room for my car and the bike if it’s on the floor. Room is also why I can’t have more than one bike. No place to put it.

To mount my bike on the wall I use a “Zero Gravity“ rack. The company appears to be defunct, now, but their rack does the job for me.

 

[GaryInCO]

For storing a heavy ebike in limited space, consider some of the pulley/hoist systems. Search google or Amazon for "bike hoist" and there are lots of options.

Getting an ebike into a car can definitely be a challenge. Last summer I had a Lectric XPremium for a while. Heavy beast, weighs about 75lbs = 34kg. Fortunately it folded, which made it a bit easier. I folded it, put it into a big wheeled tote, then levered it up into the back of my car. I always carried my recumbent in the back of my car, and I could pop the front wheel off a Vado or whatever and load it in the back, but I'm seriously considering getting a hitch-mount rack for whatever ebike I end up with.

 

[GaryInCO]

Went for another test ride today -- Vado 3.0. I think this is it! The Vado SL was painful after only 5 miles or so, and I couldn't wait to get back to the shop and dump it. The non-SL Vado felt GOOD, comfortable, nimble. Maybe not 110% perfect, but some of that will just be getting used to it & settling in. It's a little more lean-forward than I wanted, but I'll get used to that, and the shop says we can swap out the handlebars with some that are swept back a bit, and I think that would be perfect. (He says we can't raise it due to the design of the stem.)

Trying to decide between 3.0 and 4.0... 4.0 is $750 more. It has better components, which honestly I don't care much about. As long as they work reliably, I don't need bike-geek-orgasms. The 4.0 has a bigger battery (but supposedly only about 10% more range) and more power (70 Nm vs 50). I took the 3.0 out for a 15 mile ride including a ~6% 1.5-mile hill, and I powered up it easily in 5th gear. So I don't think the lower power would be a problem. But I think I'll probably get the 4.0 just on the "don't buy cheap now and regret it later" philosophy. Maybe I'll want the extra range or power.

I think I'll get red.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm glad you liked the Vado, Gary!

But I think I'll probably get the 4.0 just on the "don't buy cheap now and regret it later"

You will not regret the extra money spent, especially with the current Specialized discounts in the U.S.! Vado 4.0 is simply one level up. Bear in mind the Alivio drivetrain on the 3.0 is the entry level thing, and the brakes of the 4.0 are better, too. The more powerful motor is an asset (as @mschwett said it is easy to tune the Vado motor and reduce the assistance for even longer range; or ride the e-bike really fast when you need it).

The 4.0 has a bigger battery (but supposedly only about 10% more range)

This is to some extent true, and I think I can explain it. The 710 Wh battery has the effective charge 25% higher than the 530 Wh one. However, the same default ECO setting of 35% Ease/Assist (Boost) and having the motor capped at its 35% Max Power means the Vado 4.0 is faster/stronger than the 3.0, and it draws more power from the battery (actual range increase 10-12%). However, if the effective assistance of the 4.0 is tuned down to become the one of the 3.0*, the 4.0 range will be 25% longer.

Both Vado 3.0 and 4.0 have the Mastermind displays. One of the data screens is all about the power and range. After several miles pedalled on the Vado, the display will show the updated estimated range as well as the Range Trend (range increasing or decreasing). There is the MicroTune assist mode, in which you can precisely tune the motor performance (and see the re-estimated Range soon). There is Smart Control that allows you riding for a specified distance/elevation gain without the range anxiety.
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*) Setting the assistance of Vado 4.0 to 30/30% makes the e-bike equivalent to Vado 3.0 at 35/35% default ECO in the terms of the power consumption and performance.

the shop says we can swap out the handlebars with some that are swept back a bit, and I think that would be perfect. (He says we can't raise it due to the design of the stem.)

They are right. It is not worthwhile to try and replace the stem (to be able to raise it) but more backswept handlebars could do their job. Interestingly, the Vado handlebars have the backsweep of 15 degrees, which is very close to the most ergonomic figure of 16 degrees quoted by SQlab. Perhaps you could get used to that careful and well thought design?
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You could consider the Vado 3.0 if you wanted less expensive maintenance: Yes, Vado 3.0 is not only more lightweight, it is also less expensive to maintain, because of the inexpensive Shimano drivetrain and brakes. (Toss a coin?)