Considering a Specialized, got a few questions

[AvalancheRun]

You have some melodious birds in Mazovia! Nice video too btw, going to try that method.

 

[GaryInCO]

It was warm(ish) today so I went out for a couple of test rides: 11mi on the Turbo Vado SL 5.0, 7mi on a Trek Verve+ 3.

• The Vado SL is *LIGHT*. For an ebike anyway, 35lbs or so. It felt like a normal bike, and in fact it was quite easy to pedal without any electric boost.
• It's a bit underpowered. Only 35 Nm, vs 50/70/90 for the non-SL. It's fine on flats, not sure about hills. I rode across town to the foothills and intended to take it up a 7% slope, but I was running low on juice when I got there.
• It's too much like a road bike for me -- stretched long, more leaned-forward. I got my recumbent because I hated that posture. Within a couple of miles my shoulders were complaining and my wrists weren't happy either. Pounded my @$$.
• It was stiff and had a rough ride. I didn't enjoy it. I was sore in several places after just 11 miles.

Then I went to Trek.

• I was immediately struck by how sure-footed the Verve+3 felt. Very stable handling. It was the polar opposite of the terrible-handling Lectric I tried, and slightly but noticeably better than the Vado SL.
• More power, 50 Nm. That was enough for the (maybe 4%?) hills I tested it on. Never bothered going over boost level 2 out of 4.
• It's a more upright position. The seatpost has a tiny bit of spring to it but that's all the suspension it has.
• My shoulders & butt didn't bother me, even an hour after the Vado test ride. It was a much more comfortable ride.
• It's a teensy bit small for me (no XL frame available). I could use maybe 1" more in the seatpost.
• It's about $3300 or $3500 depending on Class 1 or Class 3.

Verve+ 3 - Trek Bikes

Discover your next great ride with Verve+ 3. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

www.trekbikes.com

Since the Vado SL didn't work out, the LBS is bringing a Como (non-SL) up from Denver to try. It has the carbon belt and CVT, which should be interesting. I thought it was roughly the same price range as the Vado SL. Well it is, if you compare full prices. But the Vado SL got discounted $2000, so the Como 5.0 sale price is $2000 more. I won't seriously consider the Como unless we can step down to the 3.0, which cuts the price in *half*.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It's a pity you could not try a full power Vado, Gary.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

The climbing isn't what worries me. It's bombing DOWN those steep/rough/rocky trails. That sounds like a medical emergency just waiting to happen.



Your "terrible" English is vastly better than any non-English language I speak! I know bits of German, French, tiny bits of Swedish, a little Japanese -- but I'm not conversant in any of 'em.

I'll go back to the LBS this week, and find out the model year & other details.

I'm glad you are getting to test ride that SL as I was going to add that it's really important you test ride both the SL and the full power Vado to get a sense of them and the comparative power. And if possible test on some hills as the proof is in the pudding as they say. It's a big expense that can bring hours and hours of fitness & fun and health so worth getting it right from the get go. Good luck.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I'm glad you are getting to test ride that SL as I was going to add that it's really important you test ride both the SL and the full power Vado to get a sense of them and the comparative power. And if possible test on some hills as the proof is in the pudding as they say. It's a big expense that can bring hours and hours of fitness & fun and health so worth getting it right from the get go. Good luck.

I missed that you've now tried the SL and the Trek. That's good. It's all about the bike suiting you & your riding conditions.

 

[Marquezdl]

To the OP. I live at 5300” asl in Medellin Colombia, and I have a short, but rather challenging climb from the valley floor where Central Medellin is to my apartment on the hillside west of downtown. I purchased a Vado 4.0 about a year ago and at first I was quite bummed by how heavy it is.
but over the past year I have gotten used to it and am basically quite happy with it now. The steepest pitch on the way up to my apartment tops 25%. I can make it up in sport mode but its tough. In turbo mode I sometimes forget to shift down into the lowest cog.
so the vado 4.0 is capable of serious climbing. It does fine at 35+ mph downhill.
as a lifelong bicyclist I could not get comfortable with the suspension seatpost, so I replaced it with a rigid one, and am much happier.
for rough city streets, potholes, curbjumping, and the like the Turbo Vado 4.0 is more than adequate for my needs. I must say though that I would get pretty damned tired trying to hoss its 50 plus pounds into a car on a regular basis.

 

[GaryInCO]

It's a pity you could not try a full power Vado, Gary.

Power wasn't the problem with the Vado SL -- the geometry just didn't work for me, and I assume the Vado would be similar. I was in minor pain after a 10 mile ride. I'm sure it would get better as I got used to it, but I'd rather start out with a bike that doesn't hurt me.

The LBS is getting me a full-power Como to try, which I think will work better for me.

for rough city streets, potholes, curbjumping, and the like the Turbo Vado 4.0 is more than adequate for my needs. I must say though that I would get pretty damned tired trying to hoss its 50 plus pounds into a car on a regular basis.

Yeah I'm not thrilled about the weight either. I *loved* the light weight of the SL. If I like the Como, I may check out the Como SL.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

assume the Vado would be similar

Not. They are different and you cannot assume anything.

The LBS is getting me a full-power Como to try, which I think will work better for me.

The pain will be shifted from your wrists and shoulders onto your ass. Then The Quest For The Comfortable Saddle will begin

 

[Halfast]

It was warm(ish) today so I went out for a couple of test rides: 11mi on the Turbo Vado SL 5.0, 7mi on a Trek Verve+ 3.

• The Vado SL is *LIGHT*. For an ebike anyway, 35lbs or so. It felt like a normal bike, and in fact it was quite easy to pedal without any electric boost.
• It's a bit underpowered. Only 35 Nm, vs 50/70/90 for the non-SL. It's fine on flats, not sure about hills. I rode across town to the foothills and intended to take it up a 7% slope, but I was running low on juice when I got there.
• It's too much like a road bike for me -- stretched long, more leaned-forward. I got my recumbent because I hated that posture. Within a couple of miles my shoulders were complaining and my wrists weren't happy either. Pounded my @$$.
• It was stiff and had a rough ride. I didn't enjoy it. I was sore in several places after just 11 miles.

Then I went to Trek.

• I was immediately struck by how sure-footed the Verve+3 felt. Very stable handling. It was the polar opposite of the terrible-handling Lectric I tried, and slightly but noticeably better than the Vado SL.
• More power, 50 Nm. That was enough for the (maybe 4%?) hills I tested it on. Never bothered going over boost level 2 out of 4.
• It's a more upright position. The seatpost has a tiny bit of spring to it but that's all the suspension it has.
• My shoulders & butt didn't bother me, even an hour after the Vado test ride. It was a much more comfortable ride.
• It's a teensy bit small for me (no XL frame available). I could use maybe 1" more in the seatpost.
• It's about $3300 or $3500 depending on Class 1 or Class 3.

Verve+ 3 - Trek Bikes

Discover your next great ride with Verve+ 3. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

www.trekbikes.com

Since the Vado SL didn't work out, the LBS is bringing a Como (non-SL) up from Denver to try. It has the carbon belt and CVT, which should be interesting. I thought it was roughly the same price range as the Vado SL. Well it is, if you compare full prices. But the Vado SL got discounted $2000, so the Como 5.0 sale price is $2000 more. I won't seriously consider the Como unless we can step down to the 3.0, which cuts the price in *half*.

Nice comparison of the two bikes. We've had a pair of Trek Verve+ 2 (40nm / 400w) bikes for 3.5 years and I bought a class 3 Verve+ 4S (65nm / 500w) a few months ago to solve the issue of my riding buddies running away from me on their <10 lb. road bikes. I really tried to like the Specialized Como but just couldn't get comfortable on the bike and found the handling to be a bit unsettling with the wider 'gravel capable' tires. Additionally, having ridden "finger/thumb" clicker shifters for ~15 years, it was really hard to let go of the muscle memory with the Sram "thumb / thumb" setup when things got exciting out there. I also liked the Como's customizable display panel with it's cadence meter always letting you know when you started slacking. But, as GaryinCO noted, the Trek is just more fun, even without some of the Specialized's plusses. Also, my class 3 Verve+ 4S Lowstep weighs around 49# and the Como we weighed at the LBS was 8# heavier and felt like it.

Verve+ 4S Lowstep - Trek Bikes

Discover your next great ride with Verve+ 4S Lowstep. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

www.trekbikes.com

 

[GaryInCO]

Not. They are different and you cannot assume anything.

Looking at the Vado and Vado SL frames, they are different but the geometries look nearly identical. Here's a bad attempt to overlay them. (Red = Vado, silver = SL) Not perfect, but the overall rider geometry seems very similar.

The pain will be shifted from your wrists and shoulders onto your ass. Then The Quest For The Comfortable Saddle will begin

Possible. I rode a Como about 100 mi in 2 days last summer. Perfectly comfortable bike / geometry, but the seat was murder. Every bump bruised the bones in my backside. But addressing the seat (suspension, etc) is easier than fixing rider geometry that just doesn't seem to work for me.

 

[California]

• It's too much like a road bike for me -- stretched long, more leaned-forward. I got my recumbent because I hated that posture. Within a couple of miles my shoulders were complaining and my wrists weren't happy either. Pounded my @$$.
• It was stiff and had a rough ride. I didn't enjoy it. I was sore in several places after just 11 miles.

Since the Vado SL didn't work out, the LBS is bringing a Como (non-SL) up from Denver to try. It has the carbon belt and CVT, which should be interesting. I thought it was roughly the same price range as the Vado SL. Well it is, if you compare full prices. But the Vado SL got discounted $2000, so the Como 5.0 sale price is $2000 more. I won't seriously consider the Como unless we can step down to the 3.0, which cuts the price in *half*.

I too love recumbents, the ride is just more comfortable.
I found a significant difference in test riding all the different bikes in terms of how I would like the posture. My favorite out of all of them was the Vado. I ended up buying a Tero x 6.0, because where I live are very short segments of connections that are gnarly, and I wanted to be confident that the bike could handle it -- primarily wider tires. I also have some medium length super steep roads. What is nice with the enormous power this bike has is that I can go up these roads and enjoy them -- roads I never took the recumbent up.

I like you do not want to truly 'mountain bike' as in barrel down steep terrain. But I do like the flexibility to be able to 'go anywhere'.

After owning the bike for a few months now and riding it at least weekly, the shoulder thing has slowly become less and less noticeable. But the maneuverability over a recumbent is vast. I think eventually I will not mind riding it for very long distances, but only time will tell.

 

[TrevorB]

Have you looked at Gazelle ebikes, good prices at present, not sure if one of these shops are near you.

Ultimate T10+ Mid-Step

Arrive at work fast and relaxed with the Ultimate T10+ HMB. A dynamic contemporary design combined with the integrated motor and battery give the Gazelle Ultimate T10+ HMB a striking yet stylish presence. The aluminum frame is exceedingly stable, which translates into sporty handling and optimum...

mikesbikes.com

This bike has more power 85nm motor and 80mm forks for comfort. Only downside is it is class 3 28mph which maybe band from some of local trails, this could also apply to some of Specialized bikes above. You need to check with LBS. Would get front chainring swapped from current 48t to 38t to give better hill climbing. Will still do 28mph but your legs will be spinning like mad.

Checkout rest of range the 65nm or 85nm motors are the better hill climbers.

Being Bosch powered lots of dealers country wide, don't have to be Gazelle.

With ebikes electrics need to be service by authorised dealer, any LBS can service other components eg brakes, gears on the bike as there no different from unpowered bikes.

Because of need to lift bike into car you are best avoiding low maintenance belt drive bikes as internal gear hub adds lot of extra weight.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Looking at the Vado and Vado SL frames, they are different but the geometries look nearly identical.

What makes them very different is the suspension fork/suspension seat-post and wide 27.5" tyres for the Vado. The riding experience is totally different for a Vado and Vado SL.

 

[GaryInCO]

What makes them very different is the suspension fork/suspension seat-post and wide 27.5" tyres for the Vado. The riding experience is totally different for a Vado and Vado SL.

I see. I'll try to check out the Vado next time I'm there. But if it's similar geometry, the suspension won't help. It would help the rough ride, but not the leaned-forward posture that I don't like.

Because of need to lift bike into car you are best avoiding low maintenance belt drive bikes as internal gear hub adds lot of extra weight.

It's about impossible to find weights on the Specialized site (I mean really, who cares what your bike weighs, amirite??) but Google to the rescue. The Vado 3 weighs 24.9 kg and the Vado 3 IGH is 26.4 kg. So only 3.3 lbs extra for IGH. I doubt you'd notice the difference when you're lifting it into the car.

 

[Marquezdl]

Y know, you can drop the lift weight of the Vado by pulling the battery off. Takes like 5 seconds and drops what maybe 3kg of weight.

 

[GaryInCO]

I stopped at the LBS again today. They'd brought in a Como 3.0 with IGH. It rode OK, but I was surprised that I wasn't in love with the IGH. It worked, but ... just didn't feel great? Hard to explain.

I was surprised that the top "gear" topped out so early. I was spinning like mad at 18-19 mph. The guy at the LBS pointed out that the Como 3.0 is a Class 1 bike, so maybe I was hitting the 20mph ceiling. That's certainly possible, but that wouldn't change the actual gear ratio.

I was wondering: any idea if the IGH on the 4.0/5.0 has a higher top gear? I would not want to pedal that 3.0 at 28mph.

They're also building up a Vado for me to test ride. The Vado SL didn't work for me, but the Vado might. He asked if I wanted a 3.0 or 4.0 and, after hearing the differences, I told him I didn't hear enough to be worth an extra $700. So probably tomorrow I'll check out the Vado 3.0.

 

[California]

I stopped at the LBS again today. They'd brought in a Como 3.0 with IGH. It rode OK, but I was surprised that I wasn't in love with the IGH. It worked, but ... just didn't feel great? Hard to explain.

I was surprised that the top "gear" topped out so early. I was spinning like mad at 18-19 mph. The guy at the LBS pointed out that the Como 3.0 is a Class 1 bike, so maybe I was hitting the 20mph ceiling. That's certainly possible, but that wouldn't change the actual gear ratio.

I was wondering: any idea if the IGH on the 4.0/5.0 has a higher top gear? I would not want to pedal that 3.0 at 28mph.

They're also building up a Vado for me to test ride. The Vado SL didn't work for me, but the Vado might. He asked if I wanted a 3.0 or 4.0 and, after hearing the differences, I told him I didn't hear enough to be worth an extra $700. So pro

I didn’t care for IGH either. Even some of the reps say not to buy it if you have hilly rides

 

[AvalancheRun]

Oh boy, got some thoughts in case it helps…

As an owner of two Enviolo bikes I would strongly recommend against that system - except with the Automatiq shifter, which is utterly fantastic.

The manual control isn’t made for aggressive riding in my opinion. I’ve tweaked my wrist repeatedly from all of the shifting on hilly and spirited rides. The shift feel is also inconsistent. They don’t truly shift well under load (been back and forth with my LBS who sells hundreds of these), and they don’t have the full range available when stopped.

The gearing is not as wide as a chain system. On 10%+ hills my cadence is on the low side. There is an efficiency hit which may be what you noticed on the test.

The “no maintenance” argument is iffy at best too. In dusty environments they can squeak loudly without lubricant. If you get a rear flat it’s a bear to change a tire. You’ll never get it done in the field. An increasing number of shops can work on these systems, though if they have much experience is another question.

One idea is you can *probably* add the Automatiq to the Vado since the 5.0 comes with it. It’s a marvel, imo. The manual system is too finicky. We’ve owned two bikes with them and I’ve just purchased a derailleur bike as a replacement. The manual control feels like an inelegant engineering solution, while the automatiq is basically the opposite. I would definitely consider an Automatiq bike in the future.

On the topic of IGHs there are better versions such as Rohloff and Kindernay but they are very pricey. Positives to the belt system are the ability to ride through sludge and have it keep working, and they can be very quiet (though having a motor going reduces that benefit). Also chains sound nice, so..

My 1994 Trek is on the same transmission from new and it shifts beautifully and effortlessly, while having a very wide range. I ride it frequently. Nowadays many bikes have wireless electronic shifting too. Not convinced the belt drive is better then chains, only different.

 

[GaryInCO]

The manual control isn’t made for aggressive riding in my opinion. I’ve tweaked my wrist repeatedly from all of the shifting on hilly and spirited rides. The shift feel is also inconsistent. They don’t truly shift well under load (been back and forth with my LBS who sells hundreds of these), and they don’t have the full range available when stopped.
The gearing is not as wide as a chain system. On 10%+ hills my cadence is on the low side. There is an efficiency hit which may be what you noticed on the test.

Yeah, that's some of what I was feeling. Thanks for clarifying it!

I doubt I'd like the Automatiq. Every car I owned for 50 years, from 16 until I got a Tesla last year, was a stick shift. Never liked automatic transmissions. I'm not usually a control freak but ...

Guess I'd better stick with the old-skool derailleurs.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

He asked if I wanted a 3.0 or 4.0 and, after hearing the differences, I told him I didn't hear enough to be worth an extra $700. So probably tomorrow I'll check out the Vado 3.0.

A far bigger battery and a stronger motor on the 4.0. The battery alone was worth the extra money.

I was wondering: any idea if the IGH on the 4.0/5.0 has a higher top gear? I would not want to pedal that 3.0 at 28mph.

Yes, the 4.0 and 5.0 IGH have higher gearing. The firmware for the 5.0 IGH has been updated to allow for the lower cadence, so higher speed can be achieved easier.

Guess I'd better stick with the old-skool derailleurs.

+1. I used to own only one automatic gearbox car, the rest being manual, and I have always ridden chain bikes. I feel confident with the derailleur, and I think I would not feel sporty enough on an IGH e-bike.