Class sticker?

[J.R.]

I rode my first e-bike in 2008 but did not return to the e-bike scene until 2019. I was overwhelmed by the different configurations. Actually, I know a number of potential buyers now frozen by confusion and indecision. Cadence sensors, torque sensors, throttles, hydraulic vs mechanical brakes, folding, fat, etc. It all sounds like gobbledygook to first-timers.

To the point, what is an "illegal" bike now? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm in rural Vermont, but I've seen three teens riding high speed scooters with nominal pedals in different locations. The kid I saw last week I clocked at 40mph (give or take 1 or 2 mph). I know for sure because I was behind him in my car doing 35mph. He was running up on the sidewalk and then doing Evil Knievel jumps back onto the road. Admittedly, the road and sidewalk were empty, but I still can't believe any parent would allow this, and if I saw this on one of our glorious rail trails I'd be pissed. These exceed Class 3. Is there a Class 4? Are they legal without a drivers license and insurance?

I have similar experiences in rural PA. So many beautiful trails! We had a ban on the local trails a few years ago, but a small group of us worked for 18 months to get it overturned. The local, famous rail trail attracts tourists in the warm months, and with that comes the many fat tire 1000+ watt scooters with pedals. Given the work we put in, I was somewhat upset when the scooters showed up last year. The regulations are clear and noted everywhere. People don't care, they do what they want. I am not the ebike police, I just ride my legal ebike and enjoy the outdoors and the people I ride with. Make hay while the sun shines.

EBR's Court used to call ebikes, outside of the 3 classes, Class 4, for lack of any official classifications. I got to know a lot of officials when we were working on access. Policing the classes is far too difficult, they see bans as the only way to regulate paths and trails. There's no money to check for classes. Total bans are easy to enforce; if it has a motor, it's not allowed. All it takes is to have a ranger at a trailhead.

I've ridden a lot of trails, in several states, over the last 10 years. The access we have is fragile, and it's sad to see illegal ebikes riding on the coattails of people that worked hard to get that access. It's so easy to follow the rules, but it's a self centered world we live in.

 

[m@Robertson]

"The bill would prohibit a person from tampering with or modifying an electric bicycle to change its speed capability, unless he or she appropriately replaces the classification label."

AB 1096 Assembly Bill – CHAPTERED

A few years I corresponded with the office of a CA Rep when I was researching to fight a local ban here. The above was put in place as a catchall for builders and shops.

That still doesn't cover the home builder. It DOES cover against a manufactured ebike that had a class sticker in the first place, where the DIY person is modifying an already-finished product. But if you build the bike yourself as a conversion from an analog donor, it doesn't apply. You aren't tampering with anything as the bike comes the way you built it up.

It doesn't really matter; the horse has left the barn. Bans are increasing. Illegal bikes are everywhere, and communities are pissed off they are taking over paths and trails. My comments were from 2 years ago. 10 Years ago, was the golden age of ebiking for me. Everyone said what's an ebike?

Illegal bikes are literally everywhere, as in every single ebike in the USA. Since the limit is 750w, and the reality of electrical motors is watts = volts times amps, even a 36v system with a tame controller exceeds the 'limit' (42v x 20a = 840 watts). And a 48v system is even further off that mark. And everyone knows it. No legislative or regulatory body wants to stunt the growth of alternative 2-wheel transportation.

I don't see any genuine evidence of 'bans are increasing'. I see news stories pointed to on ebike forums, but ebike forums have always been where people concentrate complaints like this. In the real world, its evolving sure. But in the direction of safety (UL battery standards etc.) not bans. As you say... the toothpaste is out of the tube and a local city council - the only ones who even few and far between are trying to grab headlines - can make all the rules they want but the vast increase in law enforcement involvement will still be the limiting factor.

Look at New York City. They actively tried banning ebikes. Rounded them up, confiscated etc. and they had to give up... after years of aggressive law enforcement. Ebikes are heading towards ubiquity regardless of a few vocal naysayers who are being drowned out by mass acceptance.

 

[J.R.]

That still doesn't cover the home builder. It DOES cover against a manufactured ebike that had a class sticker in the first place, where the DIY person is modifying an already-finished product. But if you build the bike yourself as a conversion from an analog donor, it doesn't apply. You aren't tampering with anything as the bike comes the way you built it up.

Illegal bikes are literally everywhere, as in every single ebike in the USA. Since the limit is 750w, and the reality of electrical motors is watts = volts times amps, even a 36v system with a tame controller exceeds the 'limit' (42v x 20a = 840 watts). And a 48v system is even further off that mark. And everyone knows it. No legislative or regulatory body wants to stunt the growth of alternative 2-wheel transportation.

I don't see any genuine evidence of 'bans are increasing'. I see news stories pointed to on ebike forums, but ebike forums have always been where people concentrate complaints like this. In the real world, its evolving sure. But in the direction of safety (UL battery standards etc.) not bans. As you say... the toothpaste is out of the tube and a local city council - the only ones who even few and far between are trying to grab headlines - can make all the rules they want but the vast increase in law enforcement involvement will still be the limiting factor.

Look at New York City. They actively tried banning ebikes. Rounded them up, confiscated etc. and they had to give up... after years of aggressive law enforcement. Ebikes are heading towards ubiquity regardless of a few vocal naysayers who are being drowned out by mass acceptance.

I used to commute from the country to a nearby small city on a pedal bike, about 2000 miles a year. When I took up ebiking that went up to 6k miles a year. Nowadays my riding is fitness and recreational, with the odd errand when I can. I have lived and worked in a large mid-Atlantic city. Cities aren't going to stop illegal ebiking with bans; they can't stop kids from taking over the streets on motorcross bikes. Destination trails and paths that are limited access are easy to control. MTB trails, state and national parks are easy to control. Urban and even suburban infrastructure are next to impossible to control. So, bans won't work everywhere, but I've personally seen them work in the very places many here love to ride. It may or may not affect you or I, but someone here may have just lost access to their favorite trail.

It's a natural thing to dismiss things we don't see out our front window. We forget the landscape is different for everyone. The reasons we ride and the places we enjoy riding are many and varied. Bans don't get the headlines, but it doesn't mean they aren't happening. The only way our local ban got any news was because a member of our group contacted the local paper and had a meeting and demo ride with them. When a community decides to ban ebikes from a trail/path system it isn't announced to the press. It takes an extraordinary event like an accident to get the press involved.

I lived the issue for 18 months and I don't know if I can take it up again. I really just want to ride and enjoy all the wonderful trails I have access to.

 

[Doggyman1202]

Having pedals is a workaround for the distributors of 1000 watt, 40mph plus cycles. Perhaps it would make sense to legally brand and designate these things e-scooters instead of bicycles, electric or otherwise. After all, they're not bicycles by any reasonable measure except the pedal posturing. Marketing obfuscation doesn't change the wolf in sheep's clothing. It's still a wolf.

 

[m@Robertson]

I used to commute from the country to a nearby small city on a pedal bike, about 2000 miles a year. When I took up ebiking that went up to 6k miles a year. Nowadays my riding is fitness and recreational, with the odd errand when I can. I have lived and worked in a large mid-Atlantic city. Cities aren't going to stop illegal ebiking with bans; they can't stop kids from taking over the streets on motorcross bikes. Destination trails and paths that are limited access are easy to control. MTB trails, state and national parks are easy to control. Urban and even suburban infrastructure are next to impossible to control. So, bans won't work everywhere, but I've personally seen them work in the very places many here love to ride. It may or may not affect you or I, but someone here may have just lost access to their favorite trail.

It's a natural thing to dismiss things we don't see out our front window. We forget the landscape is different for everyone. The reasons we ride and the places we enjoy riding are many and varied. Bans don't get the headlines, but it doesn't mean they aren't happening. The only way our local ban got any news was because a member of our group contacted the local paper and had a meeting and demo ride with them. When a community decides to ban ebikes from a trail/path system it isn't announced to the press. It takes an extraordinary event like an accident to get the press involved.

I lived the issue for 18 months and I don't know if I can take it up again. I really just want to ride and enjoy all the wonderful trails I have access to.

Here where I live, the city council rsponded to all the usual complaints by implementing a 12 mph speed limit on the main trail here - which is a 'recreation trail' but its the main artery for cyclists as transportation since the streets are narrow and crowded, with no shoulders oftentimes. Over the years, its gone from mild enforcement via uniformed officers doing impromptu roadblocks to ... nothing. Ebikes simply grew in number to the point where they are now the dominant form of pedal cycle. It sneaked up on me but they went from 1-in-10 to maybe 8 out of 10 seemingly out of nowhere. This is a community where there are a lot of bike riders, both tourists renting from rental outfits and riding in groups as well as individuals (and these tend to be the Super73 or Rad Runner crowd on throttle only), to a contingent of locals who are commuting or running errands, of which I am the latter.

On rural trails, 'no ebikes' signs are popping up, sure. But when I went up to Shaver Lake to camp a couple weeks ago, where such signs had just popped up, they were roundly ignored. And not by those darn kids. Adults who took the bikes from their RV/campsite for use as transportation were pretty much 100% of the population. Rad Runners and little fat tire folders. People who couldn't get around without the 'e' in ebike. The mood I heard was simple defiance. The Man could go eff off. He was not going to turn them into shut-ins who can't go shopping or sightseeing on a trail (dirt road) out behind the lake. It was also on private land run by Con Edison and they have trucks toodling along the fire roads all over the place ... with nary a word to anyone, myself included.

So I'm going to stick to my assessment. As we approach ubiquity, restrictions will melt away ... either officially or via mass-disobedience in a world that has better things to worry about. Lets not forget: Bicyclists are required to use hand signals or they are breaking the law. Nobody would dream of enforcing that rule, either.

 

[Doggyman1202]

Last summer a member of our Facebook community forum posted a complaint about a kid tearing up the trails at our local preserve, riding an "e-bike". I knew who he was talking about. I was a little tempted to correct his usage of "e-bike" but that really was not his point, and I didn't want to sound like a fuddy-duddy nit-picker so I said nothing. Good thing. I would have been wrong. I saw the kid park his cycle outside a local coffee shop this Spring and noticed for the first time it had bike pedals. I don't think this kid would be caught dead pedaling, but this thing did meet the current definition of e-bike.

To my earlier point, if we can define these vehicles for they are, it might mitigate a lot of the grievance about "e-bikes" running amuck, (since they are not) and hopefully spare us responsible folks from the regulatory wringer.

 

[m@Robertson]

Yeah but all the hand-wringing over throttling pretty much only happens on ebike forums. The demand to pedal the bike Is not a real-world concern shared by the general public. Being all over this ebike forum world, we forget we are only a small bit of a much larger world. Big fish, small pond.

If I counted the tourists on rented bikes who are poking along at their 20 mph and not pedaling... it would be pretty much all of them. And THAT is Everyman. They want convenient transportation. The throttled ebike shaped like a go-kart with a design that makes pedaling ridiculous ... 'normal' people without the cyclist attitude consider them the bike of choice. Same with youth who are looking for last-mile and city-center transportation. Its a different ethic entirely... and you'd better get used to it because this is the direction things are going in. Its not for me, but it sure is for people who want a bike ... but don't want to be a cyclist.

Bike shop brands are finally giving e-bike riders what they want: throttles

Bike shop brands are finally making more e-bikes with throttles. Here's why these companies have stopped avoiding throttles and joined in.

electrek.co

 

[6zfshdb]

I ride trails all over the northeastern US and from what I see, these "outlaw" ebikes seem to be confined to urban and suburban areas. Kids usually don't have the ability to transport their bikes so they ride close to home. Being retired gives me the luxury to ride wherever I want. I now ride mostly in rural areas where these outlaws, and the resulting regulations, are all but non existent. I've even seen some regulations eased or eliminated in some of these locations.

I realize my world is but a small piece of the big picture, but I see hope for those like me who ride in rural locations.

 

[Doggyman1202]

Yeah but all the hand-wringing over throttling pretty much only happens on ebike forums. The demand to pedal the bike Is not a real-world concern shared by the general public. Being all over this ebike forum world, we forget we are only a small bit of a much larger world. Big fish, small pond.

If I counted the tourists on rented bikes who are poking along at their 20 mph and not pedaling... it would be pretty much all of them. And THAT is Everyman. They want convenient transportation. The throttled ebike shaped like a go-kart with a design that makes pedaling ridiculous ... 'normal' people without the cyclist attitude consider them the bike of choice. Same with youth who are looking for last-mile and city-center transportation. Its a different ethic entirely... and you'd better get used to it because this is the direction things are going in. Its not for me, but it sure is for people who want a bike ... but don't want to be a cyclist.

Bike shop brands are finally giving e-bike riders what they want: throttles

Bike shop brands are finally making more e-bikes with throttles. Here's why these companies have stopped avoiding throttles and joined in.

electrek.co

I agree with what you're saying and did not mean to emphasize throttles. I accept the fact that they are part of equation now, good, bad, or indifferent. The "e-bike" I was referring to was what Court loosely referred to as a Class 4, or what 6z calls "outlaw" bikes. I did not take note of the brand I posted about above. .

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Yeah but all the hand-wringing over throttling pretty much only happens on ebike forums. The demand to pedal the bike Is not a real-world concern shared by the general public. Being all over this ebike forum world, we forget we are only a small bit of a much larger world. Big fish, small pond.

If I counted the tourists on rented bikes who are poking along at their 20 mph and not pedaling... it would be pretty much all of them. And THAT is Everyman. They want convenient transportation. The throttled ebike shaped like a go-kart with a design that makes pedaling ridiculous ... 'normal' people without the cyclist attitude consider them the bike of choice. Same with youth who are looking for last-mile and city-center transportation. Its a different ethic entirely... and you'd better get used to it because this is the direction things are going in. Its not for me, but it sure is for people who want a bike ... but don't want to be a cyclist.

Bike shop brands are finally giving e-bike riders what they want: throttles

Bike shop brands are finally making more e-bikes with throttles. Here's why these companies have stopped avoiding throttles and joined in.

electrek.co

Same here in very hilly coastal San Diego County: Ebikes everywhere, most being used as transportation. Most are RadRunner-style hub-drives with wide 20" tires. Nearly all have throttles, and most are probably cadence-sensing, as the pedaling I see generally looks to be ghost pedaling.

Fine by me. I'm sure these folks are enjoying their bikes in their own ways. And most would have been in a car instead if real pedaling effort had been required.

The crude power delivery systems on these ebikes are pretty much all-or-nothing. And that clearly contributes to some of the irresponsible riding I see.

But for better or worse, these ebikes were the first to market at affordable prices, they serve the utility riders well enough, and we have the bike infrastructure to make utility riding reasonably safe. The rest is history.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Don’t need a sticker for my class 3 500w bike. I hope the cop doesn’t get confused.

 

[PedalUma]

Don’t need a sticker for my class 3 500w bike. I hope the cop doesn’t get confused.

View attachment 183084

Ride1Up has great dealer support. No push back, minimal questions and a replacement part arrives in two days.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Ride1Up has great dealer support. No push back, minimal questions and a replacement part arrives in two days.

Awesome to know! I haven’t had any issues with my bike.

I did ask a few technical questions about the motor, but didn’t get much info other than “google the typing on the motor”, which I naturally did before contacting them. I mean, why would a customer, who didn’t want to void the warranty, ask about how many magnets were in the motor? Of course they wouldn’t tell.

 

[PedalUma]

how many magnets

That is a really tough question. Is it really asking what it is asking? Total operational system magnets? That would include brake cutouts. Or just about the cadence sensor, or speed sensor, or only the magnets deep within the motor's windings.

 

[PCeBiker]

Is it really asking what it is asking?
,.. or only the magnets deep within the motor's windings.

A KT controller wants to know the number of magnets within the hub motor.

The controller uses the hall sensor data (the hall sensors monitoring the phase wires) to know how fast the motor is spinning and how fast the wheel is spinning.

The magnet count and gear ratio change the data pulse rate of the hall sensors.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

That is a really tough question. Is it really asking what it is asking? Total operational system magnets? That would include brake cutouts. Or just about the cadence sensor, or speed sensor, or only the magnets deep within the motor's windings.

Inside the hub. I found out that I have this motor.

 

[PCeBiker]

I've got a proprietary unmarked Das-Kit motor with nothing but a serial number/bar code sticker.
I couldn't find any information about the motor.
I'm going to have to open it up and count the magnets and the teeth on the gears.

Apparently it's a MXUS motor but that didn't help my search for information.

I did just spend $50 for special aircraft grease, so now I've got a good excuse to open up my motor.

 

[PedalUma]

@PCeBikerebiker,
Before you crack that tube of grease look into automotive ceramic purple brake parts lube. Check the water resistance and temp ratings.

 

[PCeBiker]

The Mobile 28 is supposed to be the best option. Either that or Cornhead grease.
Maybe @m@Robertson can elaborate better than I can.