Charging to 80% without a Satiator

Great job devhead. That chart looks perfect. The test I’ve seen on cycle life show charging to 4.1 offers many more cycles over 4.2. So I would charge a little higher than 80% if looking for more miles on a charge. But I wouldn’t get them by discharging past the 20% mark. If the 80/20 works for you, then that’s even better.
 
I got the bigger battery pack so that I could stick within the 80/20 rule. I think a lot of us are surprised with the lower part of our original chart. What I thought was 35% is actually 3% and that all this time I'm doing harm to my battery pack. I have a 300 foot climb at mile 18 of my ride, lately the CCS has been sluggish, it used to go up the hill at 23mph, now I'm having to work to get it do 19mph.
 
I'm missing something. Juiced says for the 52V that 80% is 55V and 20% is 45V. The chart above says 80% is 56V and 20% is 52V. It also states that 0% on the 52V is around 46V. I think the stock setting for low voltage cutoff on the Juiced CCX is around 42V. I bumped it up to 45V for my needs. If the chart above is correct then the 45V threshold I set is actually below 0%. Something makes zero sense here.
 
I'm still not convinced on any of this but remember that the charts are to be used when the bike is at rest. Your LVC, from what i understand, is used while the bike has a load on it, when you are riding it with the motor engaged. Typically when you are riding the voltage indicator will be several volts lower than if you were to stop riding and let the battery recover for a minute or two. So...for LVC, you might need a completely different chart.

I am not an expert at this and i'm just trying to distill and understand this thread.
 
Your post is exactly correct. LVC is another chart. You might be able to use 44 or 45 volts as your cut off. But then verify your resting voltage and fine tune it from there. LVC will change a little as your battery ages. The way it will change is you will use a lower LVC but always verify against your resting voltage.
 
I happened to bring my charger with me to work today. So...after reading and distilling the info in the this thread I charged the battery to 52.3V (80% using Mark's chart). I rode my usual aggressive 10 miles. This time the bike would hit 29+ mph instead of the normal 25+. When I got home I let the bike rest 15 minutes and checked the voltage, 49.4V (40% using Mark's chart). So...I used 40% of the battery going 10 miles. This is a 19ah battery pack that should go a lot farther than 25 miles in sport mode.

Another thing to note, let the battery rest for 15 minutes after charging to get a more accurate start voltage. Mine originally displayed 52.8V when I took it off the charger but displayed 52.3 an hour later when I actually went for my ride.

Has anyone ridden a CCS from fully charged to mostly drained, continuously, in sport mode? How far did you get?
 
devhead said:
I'm still not convinced on any of this but remember that the charts are to be used when the bike is at rest. Your LVC, from what i understand, is used while the bike has a load on it, when you are riding it with the motor engaged. Typically when you are riding the voltage indicator will be several volts lower than if you were to stop riding and let the battery recover for a minute or two. So...for LVC, you might need a completely different chart.

I am not an expert at this and i'm just trying to distill and understand this thread.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this information. I didn't really read through a lot of the technical/argumentative posts in any kind of detail. I still tend to lean towards Juiced's recommendations. I can't believe that the minimal pedaling input I provide would make such a difference in numbers.
 
SirJonathan said:
I'm missing something. Juiced says for the 52V that 80% is 55V and 20% is 45V. The chart above says 80% is 56V and 20% is 52V. It also states that 0% on the 52V is around 46V. I think the stock setting for low voltage cutoff on the Juiced CCX is around 42V. I bumped it up to 45V for my needs. If the chart above is correct then the 45V threshold I set is actually below 0%. Something makes zero sense here.
Click to expand...

The charts offered by Mark and Juiced seemingly conflict because they represent voltage values based on different states of battery use. At least that is my understanding based on Marks explanation.

Apparently, the Juiced chart and the charts that Mark and devhead have generated are from different perspectives of the battery packs use.

Based on Mark's information in blog note #49, his charted percentage values are voltages from a battery pack in it's resting state.
When a battery is in use while pedaling the ebike, chart values from Juiced are the practical and useful minimum voltage values, right? Then, In use under a load, Mark's charted voltages are of questionable value.

Any need for understanding "resting voltage" in the chart put forth by Mark could be useful for determining the amount of time needed to recharge the battery, right?

So perhaps the Mark and devhead charts should be designated "resting voltage", and that stabilized resting state may be useful -or not if you are calculating your batteries remaining capacity while riding.

The Juiced chart shows voltage percentages while riding and putting a load on the battery, right? So the Juiced chart values would be most useful for setting the minimum voltage cutoff while the battery is under load.

Then, if resting values in Mark's chart are accurate, those voltage values can be useful in calculating time needed to recharge the battery to a preferred optimal condition.

Summing up the confusion, According to Mark, the two different charts don't really conflict. Maybe, both charts have useful values? Mark's chart shows voltage percentages for the battery pack in a resting state (blog note#49). The Juiced chart shows Battery voltage percentage capacity while in use. I'm just trying to make sense of what other's have written... Unless someone out there can clarify the confusion better...
 
Bikerjohn, not sure what the answer is, yet, but I'm don't think that one chart is for at rest and the other is for under load. I see that my CCS gets much lower (off the chart) when under load towards the end of my ride. It rebounds and finds it way back on the chart after about 15 minutes. Also, both charts start with the same 100% values. As Mark noted, the upper half of the original chart isn't too far off, it is just the lower half that he feels people should be warned about.

I'm starting to think that a person needs to decided what the lowest voltage should be before doing damage to the battery pack. Mark feels that that value is 3.71 volts per cell. I think other folks have been using a lower number and thus you have two different charts with the greater discrepancy on the lower half of the chart. Everyone agrees on the value for 100%. As soon at the battery is under load it will not display 100% value of 54.6.
 
devhead said:
Bikerjohn, not sure what the answer is, yet, but I'm don't think that one chart is for at rest and the other is for under load. I see that my CCS gets much lower (off the chart) when under load towards the end of my ride. It rebounds and finds it way back on the chart after about 15 minutes. Also, both charts start with the same 100% values. As Mark noted, the upper half of the original chart isn't too far off, it is just the lower half that he feels people should be warned about.

I'm starting to think that a person needs to decided what the lowest voltage should be before doing damage to the battery pack. Mark feels that that value is 3.71 volts per cell. I think other folks have been using a lower number and thus you have two different charts with the greater discrepancy on the lower half of the chart. Everyone agrees on the value for 100%. As soon at the battery is under load it will not display 100% value of 54.6.
Click to expand...


Hi Devhead, I see you have a CCS, so do I. I'm wondering if you know how many watts our controller is rated for? I need to know and thought maybe you would know offhand. Thanks. Nothing to do with this thread by the way.
I'm guessing it's 20 amps.

Never mind, I just confirmed it is 20 amps. I have six eBikes now and all the specs are starting to cloud my mind. Thanks.
 
Last edited:
@Feliz, sorry, I do not know the specs for the controller on the CCS.

I've read through this thread once again and figured out my take aways.

1) I'm not charging my battery high enough (I thought i was but I'm not)
2) because of this I'm constantly draining it below a recommended level and thus possibly shortening its life expectancy
3) Charging the battery to a higher level, 52.3 volts for 48v pack, is still within recommend amounts and allows the bike to perform better
4) I might need to charge at work if I want to keep the nominal voltage above recommended low end levels

I hope everyone has good weather this weekend that will allow you to have a fun time riding on your JB!
 
Okay, thanks. Ya, I always check my voltage when the bike/battery is at rest. Even when I'm riding I always stop for a few minutes before checking the voltage if I think it's necessary. I don't know, I guess I just intuitively knew that from my years of flying RC equipment, I never really thought about it.

I actually rode one of my bike today, very unusual for where I live in Canada. It was 8C and we have no snow at all, not good for skiing though. Have a good New Years.
 
I'm not sure exactly what the juice chart is for. What i don't like is the juice chart uses 3 volts as there 100% discharge. Well I know that's not right because the industry uses the chart I posted. So using 3v and 4.2 gives different numbers that I don't believe are correct. It's hard to say if there chart is for LVC because that can vary depending on your load. So how would they know what your load is. 15,20,25,30 or 40 amps? LVC will be different for each one. Also the cells used can very the LVC. I can't even find the juice chart when i do a search for lithium percentages.
 
MarkF said:
I'm not sure exactly what the juice chart is for. What i don't like is the juice chart uses 3 volts as there 100% discharge. Well I know that's not right because the industry uses the chart I posted. So using 3v and 4.2 gives different numbers that I don't believe are correct. It's hard to say if there chart is for LVC because that can vary depending on your load. So how would they know what your load is. 15,20,25,30 or 40 amps? LVC will be different for each one. Also the cells used can very the LVC. I can't even find the juice chart when i do a search for lithium percentages.
Click to expand...

I think it's a good thing this discrepancy surfaced, fortunately I've never used Juices chart, at least not that I can remember.
 
Oh, I thought when Biker John posted his chart he said he got it from Juiced. Maybe I'm mistaken. I'll take a look
 
I went to the Canadian Juiced site and couldn't find the chart. They have a good article in the "resources" section, they give the correct voltages as per Mark's chart but they do say "when not under load".

Maybe Juice have taken down their chart
 
DDBB said:
The only thing that makes Li-ion less volatile than Lipo is the metal jacket. For all intents and purposes they are the same chemistry. Much easier to puncture or physically damage a Lipo resulting in fire.. Overcharge Li-ion, fire.. Over discharge? ,possible explosion. same-same
Click to expand...
No. The chemistry is not as stable. Period.
 
LOL..... that's wrong, it's the same chemistry... The difference between Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer is the vessel, not the chemistry
 
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