Can we change the culture?

[6zfshdb]

Just another thought about throttles...

It does not seem particularly challenging, to me to come up with a solution to the problems people are trying to solve with throttles without it being a throttle. There are a lot of intelligent and mechanically inclined people on this board and out in the real world who could solve this problem if they wanted to.

I'll give one example that I came up with in about five minutes. If you'd spend more time and effort you'd likely come up with a much better solution.

One nice feature of cadence-only assist bikes is that you can ghost pedal, where with just a very slow motion of the cranks and no torque you can engage the motor and move along nicely for very little effort. So imagine that you had a big red button on your handlebars that, when pressed, would disengage torque sensing (only using cadence sensing) and provide 100 percent motor power for 5 seconds. You'd want a safety cap on that button so it couldn't be accidentally engaged when you are walking the bike or otherwise not riding it. That would not be a throttle but would give you, I think, 99 percent of what a throttle buys you without being a throttle.

As an additional refinement pressing that hypothetical button for 3 seconds would disable torque sensing (only using cadence sensing) until you tap the button again. So you could ghost pedal indefinitely.

I am sure a bunch of people on here are going to post on why that wouldn't work. And they'd probably be right. But I am sure that there is a solution and it would be a more constructive use of everyone's time to get cracking and solve this problem rather than bellyaching about it. From my standpoint this wouldn't be that hard to invent, it wouldn't be that hard to patent, and you might make a nice little bit of money licensing it to e-bike makers.

A stealthy throttle would indeed be possible and not particularly expensive to implement.

During a trip to Cape Cod last fall, I stopped in a LBS who rents e-bikes on the cape. The bikes they rent are class 2 Pedego Interceptors which, according to Massachusetts law, are illegal on the cape trails. The store salesperson told me that enforcement is almost non existent and they have had no trouble at all. He said he has heard of only one incident where a park cop spotted a split grip twist throttle on a bike in a parking lot.

None of their rental bikes have class stickers and if problems begin to occur, they will make changes. They plan to remove the easily identifiable right side split grip twist throttles with thumb throttles mounted on the left handlebar. He showed me the product they plan to use and it indeed is quite stealthy, especially mounted on the left:

Amazon.com : GLOGLOW E-Bike Scooter Speed Control 3 Wires Thumb Throttle for Left/Right Handle : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : GLOGLOW E-Bike Scooter Speed Control 3 Wires Thumb Throttle for Left/Right Handle : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

While I'm not a fan of breaking the law, particularly when deceit is involved, we each do what we have to do. I ride a class 2 bike and use the throttle only to get started, particularly on hills or road crossings. My torque sensor has a slight delay which means I have to exert considerable pedal force to get going and my aging joints aren't up to the task. Once in motion, the PAS or ghost pedaling in cadence mode works fine and the throttle isn't necessary.

I can understand the anti throttle class 1 crowd fearing that throttles will fuel stricter e-bike laws due to uninformed regulators. Unfortunately, a throttle is a necessity for me and until senior / handicapped exclusions are passed, I'm forced to either give up my beloved sport or ride my class 2 bike in some locations as an "outlaw".

 

[Captain Slow]

I did a group ride on my Creo. I was the only one on an electric bike. No one treated me differently and I was just another rider. Well except they weren't shy about letting me ride on the front because I had the motor, so maybe I was a bit more popular.

My bike is class 1 though. Not sure how they'd feel if I were on a class 3 or a bike that seemed more different than what they were riding. But it was a positive experience. Hopefully that is the start of some change.

 

[Marci jo]

Rans made good recumbents...in Kansas. Lightning is made in Lompoc, CA.

No sore wrists, and no sore butt. But I did ride a tanden Rans once that I got recumbent butt after 12 miles. The metal seat pan caused me pain....either the bike seat needed more padding, or I did.

We bought the Vision tandem as the seats were more comfortable. Vision was made in Oregon.

Not sure if any two-wheeled recumbent makers have any ebikes but there are a fair amount of e-trikes.
It may be in my future. Whatever keeps you cycling!!

​

 

[Oberst]

I did a group ride on my Creo. I was the only one on an electric bike. No one treated me differently and I was just another rider. Well except they weren't shy about letting me ride on the front because I had the motor, so maybe I was a bit more popular.

My bike is class 1 though. Not sure how they'd feel if I were on a class 3 or a bike that seemed more different than what they were riding. But it was a positive experience. Hopefully that is the start of some change.

I thought the Creo is class 3?

 

[Dewey]

Not sure if any two-wheeled recumbent makers have any ebikes

I know a couple of German brands offer electric assist options: the Hase Pino Steps is a tandem bicycle with a recumbent stoker + upright Captain with a Shimano motor; and HP Velotechnik offer a neodrives Z20 direct drive hub motor option on their recumbent bicycle models. Don't think Rans or Bacchetta offer an electric option but either brand's recumbent bicycle models could be converted. For a semi-recumbent/crank forward bicycle Day6 have Bafang mid-drive motor options. The Bent Rider forum would have more suggestions.

 

[Captain Slow]

I thought the Creo is class 3?

It is in the US, but in Canada it is class 1

 

[Oberst]

It is in the US, but in Canada it is class 1

Ahh, thanks. All these threads about the Creo have me really wanting the Aluminium version but only if a class 3. I thought you were saving me money!

 

[Captain Slow]

I have really enjoyed the bike. It's not cheap, but for me it's been worth it.

If you want class 3 speeds, then you might like this

E-Bike Tuning Solutions - PLANET3.Bike

planet3.bike

 

[Oberst]

I have really enjoyed the bike. It's not cheap, but for me it's been worth it.

If you want class 3 speeds, then you might like this

E-Bike Tuning Solutions - PLANET3.Bike

planet3.bike

Thanks. Nice bike but I am becoming more of a Specialized fan, having a Vado and a Levo, the Creo would be the trifecta giving me a bike to cover all conditions and the alu version would save enough money for 2 range booster batteries!

 

[Captain Slow]

One thing I'd say isn't great about the Creo is the programming at turbo will only give you 100% of the power you produce. So you need to be a relatively strong rider to get the most out of the motor.

I'm now older and can't produce as much power. I've also had about a 10-12 week layoff due to basketball season, so my power output is down. Having said that even before I could not maintain 240 watts over a longer interval and the only way to get 240 watts out of the motor is to produce 240 watts yourself. The software won't allow you to set it to say 200% of your output.

Even by summer when I'm in better form I'm not likely to be producing 200 watts for more than a couple of minutes max, so I'm never getting 240 watts from the motor unless it's a short burst, say maybe 5 to 10 seconds and that's it.

If my FTP was over 240 watts well then I'm not sure I'd be wanting an electric bike.

 

[Oberst]

My wife and I went for a ride today. Took my Levo and my wife was on her Powerfly 9 FS equipped. Had an interesting interaction. As we were crossing a street, a very fit couple on their road racing bikes smiled, waived hello and said “nice bikes” to my wife! Apparently we all CAN get along!

 

[Lar]

I've never had an incident but I only ride where allowed and here many riders legally conceal carry self included. Not that it would ever come to that but knowing it's a possibility the next guy might be could be a deterrent for some people to smart off I suppose.

I "was" a long time member of mtbr forum. I can tell you most in the Arizona forum were against ebikes for mt biking but then many were against seatpost droppers when they first came out too.. people!!!

 

[Captain Slow]

I think that one idiot is colouring your impression of hardcore cyclists. You're assuming they're all like that, and I would say they're not. I think there are many examples on here that support that.

Just as with any group there are idiots within them. I'd say 95+% of motorists I encounter are courteous and friendly. I don't assume that less than 5% of motorists are representative of all motorists. Just like there are idiots on bikes and that's not reserved for hard core roadies. I've observed idiots on ebikes terrorizing pedestrians on multi-use paths. I'm sure there's some pedestrian assuming all ebikers ride like that and we know that's not the case.

 

[Luto]

I think that one idiot is colouring your impression of hardcore cyclists. You're assuming they're all like that, and I would say they're not. I think there are many examples on here that support that.

Just as with any group there are idiots within them. I'd say 95+% of motorists I encounter are courteous and friendly. I don't assume that less than 5% of motorists are representative of all motorists. Just like there are idiots on bikes and that's not reserved for hard core roadies. I've observed idiots on ebikes terrorizing pedestrians on multi-use paths. I'm sure there's some pedestrian assuming all ebikers ride like that and we know that's not the case.

Also consider what that persons life is like. It must be hard for them if during recreation, aka fun time, they go crazy also.

 

[Catalyzt]

I think that one idiot is colouring your impression of hardcore cyclists. You're assuming they're all like that, and I would say they're not. I think there are many examples on here that support that.

Just as with any group there are idiots within them. I'd say 95+% of motorists I encounter are courteous and friendly. I don't assume that less than 5% of motorists are representative of all motorists. Just like there are idiots on bikes and that's not reserved for hard core roadies. I've observed idiots on ebikes terrorizing pedestrians on multi-use paths. I'm sure there's some pedestrian assuming all ebikers ride like that and we know that's not the case.

<--- Yeah, this! I have to say, I was stunned the other day as I passed a large group of road bikers in Griffith Park in Los Angeles hanging out by the side of the road-- all the bikes looked expensive, and as I passed them on an EMTB, I just assumed, "Okay, they all hate me, let me give them a wide berth."

Imagine my shock when one of the guys waved, smiled, and shouted, "Hi, there!" I waved, smiled, and shouted back, of course, but...

Yeah... people! I was astounded-- and embarrassed-- by my own bias. My first reaction was to prepare for trouble... as if I was passing a chapter of a local motorcycle gang. They're cyclists! And I have a "road bike" myself that I still ride in New York!

Ridiculous.

 

[linklemming]

<--- Yeah, this! I have to say, I was stunned the other day as I passed a large group of road bikers in Griffith Park in Los Angeles hanging out by the side of the road-- all the bikes looked expensive, and as I passed them on an EMTB, I just assumed, "Okay, they all hate me, let me give them a wide berth."

Imagine my shock when one of the guys waved, smiled, and shouted, "Hi, there!" I waved, smiled, and shouted back, of course, but...

Yeah... people! I was astounded-- and embarrassed-- by my own bias. My first reaction was to prepare for trouble... as if I was passing a chapter of a local motorcycle gang. They're cyclists! And I have a "road bike" myself that I still ride in New York!

Ridiculous.

I have gotten all sort of reactions from bikers. Being near Boulder CO where alot of elite athletes train, I also encounter alot of 'super cyclists' who just astound me with their power output. Most are friendly but some are real jerks. This is getting better all the time

On one ride, if the wind is right you simply cannot catch these really fit cyclists with a factory euro-based speed pedelec ebike. The conditions of the mild 4-6% rolling hills just lets them pull away if the wind is at their backs. Of course, the higher the required power output due to headwind or hills will always favor the ebike although some bikers are just awesome.

I was on that ride yesterday with a very powerful DIY setup (52V GMAC hub motor), doing my typical fitness ride at 150-200W human output at 1.5x assist and just couldnt catch this guy. Finally had to ramp it up to 5x and really push hard. I finally caught him at a stoplight. He looked back at me at a point and seriously stared me down. As he turned back around I decided a conversation was in order.

FWIW, my flat bar surly touring bike ebike was caked in mud, hadnt been cleaned on several months, his titanium road bike was spotless and just gorgeous.

Me: Awesome bike man
Him: Thanks
Me: I love bare Titanium bikes, I used to have one and would just stare it for hours (true story)
Him: Thanks, I am actually sponsored by #####(local company) as a team rider.
Me: Awesome, I have met the owner #####(true story), I have a friend that has two of their bikes (mostly true ).
Me: Do you compete in the xxxx cyclo-cross event (literally a 3 minute walk from my house).
Him: Yeah, challenging course
Him: Hopefully the rain wont catch us, Have a good ride

The light then turns green and he takes off. He seemed really intent on going all out so I just sat back and let him go for it as I had a more offroad route I figured he wouldnt take

I have found the 'nice bike man' to disable most encounters, by the time they thank you, your gone

If one is really trying to get away from you and cant, the results can be unpredictable as their exhaustion can cause them to do/say stupid irrational things. I have had guys flip me off, spit at me, try to swerve so I run into them or just block me or even try to explain some convoluted ebike vs none ebike etiquette.

 

[6zfshdb]

Based on the various posts in this thread, it appears there is some hope. The culture is indeed changing, albeit slowly. The problem remains however that ebikers need to be prepared for anything when encountering other riders.

IMO, attrition will be the prime mover in culture change. As hard core conventional bikers age, they will either give up the sport or join the e-bike movement. Younger riders will enter the sport with e-bikes being commonplace. Who knows, they may even go electric from the beginning.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I will say something that may make me very unpopular among the American community here. I'll take the risk:

Can you change the cycling culture in the United States? Change your mentality:

1. Understand the throttle is the vice. The cycling means pedalling (seriously disabled people are absolved from the guilt).
2. Understand the bicycles are not motorbikes. Give up motors > 1 h.p.

The Europeans understand it perfectly, use no throttles and ride e-bikes with 250 W nominal motors. There are four million e-bikes in Germany alone. But we also prefer manual gearboxes here

I must remark I will ignore the inevitable wave of hate.

Excuses to be lazy, in my opinion.
If your knees hurt, downshift.

Me either. I suffer from intermittent claudication. I bought e-bike to improve the blood circulation in my legs by pedalling.


You do effort by pedalling. My leg power is puny, some 80 W. Yet I input these 80 watts in the pedals and call it cycling. How much effort is input by operating the throttle?


Throttle is not allowed in the European Union, the largest e-bike market outside China.


These are wise words. I suffer from arteriosclerosis (can't really walk), diabetes and hypertension. Yet I ride e-bikes because I cannot walk, am too weak for a traditional bike, and the e-bike allows me pedalling for more than 3 hours a day; I often stay outside for 6 hours, now, during the wintertime. If I could not pedal, I would buy an electric wheelchair...

Is a bicycle -- even motorized -- a motorbike? Certainly not, as long as it requires pedalling.

You asked the question: "Can we change the culture?" The answer is: Start changing the culture from your selves.
.
I have said enough.

Just as the d_bag that the op encountered, who are you to dictate what is correct or should be allowed.
No one cares what you do in Germany, Poland, EU or wherever as it is not the center of the universe and you are not the all knowing you try to portray yourself as.
When I ride, I follow basic bike etiquette, try to power as much as possible under my own effort and typically ride at normal pedaling speeds. If I need to pass a traditional cycle whether it be on a hill or not, it is his problem if he is offended. If I want to use a throttle because I'm crossing a busy road or for any other reason, that is my decision, not anyone else's. If I want/need a motor larger than 250w, so be it. You say we need to change the culture from ourselves? Really? How about you be the first to do so and accept that your opinion is not a rule that others should follow.
And maybe your friend wasn't jealous of your expensive ebike... Maybe he just made up his own mind of what he wants to do. But you thrive on being right, admired and watched so it's no wonder you came to that conclusion.

I only wonder why people insist on riding a bicycle when they are not able to. Call it e-motorbike. Not e-bike.
I wrote before that the seriously disabled are excused. Only don't call it e-bike.

So you see... Mostly everyone would disagree with you... at least in the free world.

 

[Dallant]

What is it about eBiking that enrages some of the less rational, less mature cyclists? I've been eCycling for about a year now and this past Sunday I received my first negative reaction but boy was it a doozy. It's all well and good to talk about just passively cycling past and ignoring comments, but this guy chased me down (sure, with my max assist of 20mph combined with 50lbs of bicycle, many cyclists can outride me on a moderate upgrade) ran me off the shoulder and threatened me with violence. If not for the fact that I had video rolling and I kept telling the guy that he was being video'ed, he might very well have followed through.

How do we get cyclists to understand that we're not competing, we're not comparing, and no - we're not uploading our stats onto the leaderboards. (I'm not and I would hope no eCyclist is!) We're just doing our thing which is similar but different than conventional cycling and why can't we just all get along? After all, I don't know of any cyclist who flies into a rage simply because a motorcyclist passes them by.

View attachment 22694

Is there some way we can change this culture for the better?

Bottom line is that there are jerks everywhere globally, and there always have been. Humans will fight to prove they’re right and always have. It’s honestly the only reason I ponder carrying a gun these days.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Bottom line is that there are jerks everywhere globally, and there always have been. Humans will fight to prove they’re right and always have. It’s honestly the only reason I ponder carrying a gun these days.

A gun does make you righter'r