Bosch Smart System, Kiox 300, PowerTube 750, eBike Flow App

[retiredNH]

Didn't notice that (but will check) - don't use the navigation on it that much, since Google Maps usually works better for me when I just need to go from point A to point B (I use Komoot to plan specific routes only). COBI.Bike has an API which developers can use to integrate their services, but it was not that popular in US, this is the reason you didn't see much application useful in US there.

Looking at the developer forums, it seems it hasn't been popular anywhere. One commentator said this:

bp2000, sadly, it seems like your doubts were proven to be real. I have never seen a developer forum of a product being dead like this, with a maintainer showing so few interest in helping the fans to create interesting and fantastisc additions to the main product:

• Documentation: outdated, false references
• Entry information, tutorials for beginners: outdated, archived, abandoned
• Show case place: removed, dead links
• Simulator: no support for basic functions (motor, battery)
• Forum: Answers near to zero or delayed by weeks
• Overall product maintenance: intransparent, slow, badly documented, amateur-level

Trying to develop something for this app feels like dancing on a cemetery, alone, in the dark, with hands bound on your back. I can only hope the true party happens somewhere else but there is no-one telling me about it.

I am very disappointed about all this. Worst experience I ever made.

Just looked at the dev kit documentation, such as it is. There are no calls for additional features beyond what cobi.bike already uses. no way to see motor power output for example.

 

[ava1ar]

Looking at the developer forums, it seems it hasn't been popular anywhere.

I think Bosch didn't invest into it since they bought the original product made by amateurs - they liked the concept, they released SmartphoneHub on same plarform, but didn't have any long-term goal about it. This is sad indeed and likely won't proceed any further. For the legacy systems only Kiox/Nyon would see some work on them as far as I can see.

 

[retiredNH]

I think Bosch didn't invest into it since they bought the original product made by amateurs - they liked the concept, they released SmartphoneHub on same plarform, but didn't have any long-term goal about it. This is sad indeed and likely won't proceed any further. For the legacy systems only Kiox/Nyon would see some work on them as far as I can see.

I think you're right, which is sad because the platform has (or had) a lot of potential. Given the developer expertise Bosch obviously has that they use for Kiox, they could have carried some of that expertise over to the smartphone hub team. The Kiox team obviously knows how to address the controller parameters, for example. And that expertise could have helped developed an updated API. Additional API calls could have driven a lot of excitement in the external developer community.
Didn't happen though.

 

[webcurl]

I wouldn't hold my breath for new addons for the new system unless a whole swag is in the pipeline from only Bosch's best 'mates'.
Unless i'm searching in the wrong place, I see no resources for anyone else to develop anything for a Bosch ebike beyond Cobi:

Bosch eBike Systems

community.developer.bosch.com

And i guess for those entrenched in the older system that don't want to upgrade to a Nyon to get Custom Ride Modes then (allegedly) they could always go illegal (almost encouraged [cheeky smile]):

VOLspeed E-Bike Tuning für Bosch Active / Performance V4

E-Bike Tuning für Bosch direkt vom Hersteller. Einfache Bedienung. Viele Funktionen. Korrekte Anzeigewerte. Geschwindigkeit einstellbar.

www.volspeed.de

For i'm guessing these products will no longer be possible under the new system as the new system will possibly, (allegedly) be able to detect tuning via more sensors quicker than ever before.
At a guess with CAN FD they'll be able to control whatever they want to be private and whatever they want to be public to developers for third party addons/plugins/whateever.
Could spell the end of any small companies producing products like Cobi in the future
Having said all that i do like my Bosch ebike a lot!

 

[webcurl]

I should have read the last 5 or so posts before i posted this previous one, i apologize, but almost a bit telepathic too

 

[webcurl]

I think Bosch didn't invest into it since they bought the original product made by amateurs - they liked the concept, they released SmartphoneHub on same plarform, but didn't have any long-term goal about it. This is sad indeed and likely won't proceed any further. For the legacy systems only Kiox/Nyon would see some work on them as far as I can see.

Yes, it's almost like there's a design team that's been there since day dot and are proud of their work (which they should be) but then went "bitchy" because Cobi was designed by others, not them and obviously the design team did not make the decision to acquire Cobi.
Then the person(s) who did make the Cobi acquisition happen ordered the design team to work on Cobi and fold it into the portfolio and because the design team were now in "bitchy" mode about it pretty much sabotaged the Smartphone Hub
I of course have no idea what really happened.

 

[retiredNH]

Yes, it's almost like there's a design team that's been there since day dot and are proud of their work (which they should be) but then went "bitchy" because Cobi was designed by others, not them and obviously the design team did not make the decision to acquire Cobi.
Then the person(s) who did make the Cobi acquisition happen ordered the design team to work on Cobi and fold it into the portfolio and because the design team were now in "bitchy" mode about it pretty much sabotaged the Smartphone Hub
I of course have no idea what really happened.

I suspect you're close to reality, but I'm willing to bet that the Cobi.bike internal champion left Bosch, so no one was left to champion it. As we know, it's pretty common for companies to have competing teams working to develop similar, competing devices, and usually one wins. In this case, it's obvious that cobi.bike was in the losing team. I wish Bosch would just EOL it, so vendors like Trek would be forced to OEM something better instead of continuing with a quirky product.

 

[webcurl]

I suspect you're close to reality, but I'm willing to bet that the Cobi.bike internal champion left Bosch, so no one was left to champion it. As we know, it's pretty common for companies to have competing teams working to develop similar, competing devices, and usually one wins. In this case, it's obvious that cobi.bike was in the losing team.

Yes, spot on, that probably happened too.
I wrote this earlier about their different devices, separated, convergence, etc:

bosch nyon 2021 release date

Does anyone know if the 2021 Nyon supports music controls? Also why doesn't the smartphone hub phone app work with kiox, I'm sure many of us have phone mounts with our Kioxs and it seems like the lack of integration is a purposeful decision by Bosch but physically possible.

electricbikereview.com

If most of these devices shared the same software base(s) within their specific category the look and feel, logic of operation, feature set's, etc. would be very similar and they would save so much time/work on software development!
Have stripped down Android Operating Systems or similar as the base software on the displays, hook into other companies well established sub-systems of navigation, etc.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I still wonder how it happens expensive Trek e-MTBs get not only Purion but also a 2A charger (which is rather funny).

 

[webcurl]

I still wonder how it happens expensive Trek e-MTBs get not only Purion but also a 2A charger (which is rather funny).

I don't own or never have owned an expensive Trek e-MTB but at a guess it's probably because all owners get their recreation/trips done faster and because of this there's less time to pay attention to a larger screen and also benefit from getting home earlier allowing for more charging time.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

I still wonder how it happens expensive Trek e-MTBs get not only Purion but also a 2A charger (which is rather funny).

This is a really good question, perhaps one of the oldest in the bike industry.

I can't speak on behalf of Trek, but I can share my experience from the last 20 years of watching OEMs spec their products in different ways. There will always be trade-offs as product managers work towards design goals and price-points. I remember even in the days before E, some OEMs were known for good drive train builds, but less expensive (heavier) wheels. Some would give you pretty much everything you wanted, but maybe a slightly cheaper fork.

Still others had well-designed, but heavier frames, allowing them to give you an exceptional build-kit value for the money. Many different versions of this.

Among end-consumers who were polled, research has shown that charge time was often less important than other factors like range/torque when it came to choosing which eBike to buy. With many users riding once a day, and then charging overnight, charge times become less important.

Purely speculation on my part, but maybe Trek is opting for a more solid MTB component spec made possible by keeping the eBike system portion cost to a minimum. A Purion and 2A charger might allow for better brakes, a nicer derailleur, etc. Someone else might look at a similar bike and wonder why they spec'd a Kiox, rather than using a better suspension fork.

A lot of room for personal preference, though it may not always align perfectly with the values of the individual customer. These days, I build all of my non-eBikes from the frame up as I'm so particular about each and every component. Currently even building a wheelset because I couldn't find anything with the hub/rim/spoke combo I want.

 

[webcurl]

 

[Stefan Mikes]

William: All I say is the 2 A charger is a shame nowadays. Trek Rail 5 is US$5,500 today. Specialized e-bikes all come with 4 A charges today, even if we're talking the cheapest Turbo e-bikes. Giant comes with 6 A (even if they offer more affordable e-MTBs). I agree the choice of the display is at the OEM discretion but the 2 A charger should have been discontinued by Bosch long time ago (precisely as Specialized did).

 

[retiredNH]

William: All I say is the 2 A charger is a shame nowadays. Trek Rail 5 is US$5,500 today. Specialized e-bikes all come with 4 A charges today, even if we're talking the cheapest Turbo e-bikes. Giant comes with 6 A (even if they offer more affordable e-MTBs). I agree the choice of the display is at the OEM discretion but the 2 A charger should have been discontinued by Bosch long time ago (precisely as Specialized did).

So go buy a 4A charger. They're not that expensive. I think William is right. Not that many people care. Have you read any other complaints about wimpy Bosch chargers?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I don't need to buy an extra charger or display when I buy from another brand. Actually, I don't need to buy a display at all. I can use ANT+ and connect to my Wahoo, which has no GPS navigation issues...

 

[fooferdoggie]

I don't need to buy an extra charger or display when I buy from another brand. Actually, I don't need to buy a display at all. I can use ANT+ and connect to my Wahoo, which has no GPS navigation issues...

well I did not have to buy another charger and I actually got credit for the one that came with my tandem. I have the same motor and battery in my tandem and my commuter. plus you can have the same motor and battery in a lot of totally different types of bikes like haulers and trikes and such. there is good and bad in all systems.

 

[webcurl]

If you're touring un-assisted outside of the towns in Australia or similar
& you wanna be a Gram Weenie or already are
& don't want to or it's simply too large & heavy to carry a generator
& you don't have a "Hack" to charge the batteries more directly (DC-DC, just like the discontinued "Travel Charger")
& are therefore trying to squeeze every DC MilliWatt of energy out of your super expensive lightweight Solar Panel(s) through the process of
converting to half way up the hill to AC, then have the Bosch charger convert back half way down the other side of the hill from AC to DC again, Phew.
Then the 2A Compact Charger is still the most compact, lightest, has the most flexible characteristics of input power requirements and the lowest power requirements available from Bosch (including new).
In the end you are lucky to get 75% of the Solar Panel(s) energy into the Bosch batteries - this of course is the reason you lean towards becoming a Gram Weenie but ultimately & inevitably end up in a mental institution!
My ebike came with a 4A so i bought the 2A and still use it every now and then to charge the batteries more slow & gentle.
Also been hearing a lot from mainstream media words like Green, Energy, Power, Facilities & "Power Option" all in the same story.
But then again there's not many customers with these frustrations i guess

 

[webcurl]

Also you can purchase the Compact Charger from any other Country should you need to, just easily change the standard input cable or use an Intl. adaptor, it'll work in all countries as the input power voltage is flexible with 100-240V AC.
This is also handy if:
You're wealthy and are carrying your ebike with you on the plane,
Or on a ship
Or if you are near or live near a border between 2 countries that have different power requirements (if that exists) and because it's Compact it can be a better fit in your Trunk/whatever bag.
I think i'm finished

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hmm.
I thought it was normal for a charger from a known brand to be small, lightweight, provide intelligent charging, work internationally, and to be able to output four amperes...

 

[webcurl]

Hmm.
I thought it was normal for a charger from a known brand to be small, lightweight, provide intelligent charging, work internationally, and to be able to output four amperes...

Can''t find any weight specs for the Specialized charger, how intelligent it is and do they have a 6A or a 2A?
More importantly for me, do Specialized have a charger you can plug into a Car Cigarette lighter socket?