Bosch Smart System, Kiox 300, PowerTube 750, eBike Flow App

[SPSP2]

For example. There was pressure to upgrade the firmware by the user - they solved it with a new system. The kiox is just right, Nyon is too big, but now there will be no effort to finish the user modes for the kiox (pay extra as well as for the lock).
The ebike is not as expensive as a car but not as cheap as a refrigerator. Technically, it's actually a kit. Not like a car.

 

[ava1ar]

Nyon is too big

Don't agree - I think it is the right size for the device with maps&navigation.

Technically, it's actually a kit. Not like a car.

Well, this is your opinion, I think otherwise. When I am buying e-bike from a big brand, I am considering this as a single integrated solution. For the manufacturer it is a kit (they can select the display, remote, motor, etc), but for user it is a complete solution (and the fact you can upgrade some components doesn't make it a kit). If you want a kit, you should look at the DYI solution where you can select and configure/customize anything (voltage, power, sensors, etc).

there will be no effort to finish the user modes for the kiox

Again, why you consider Bosch have to do this? When you were buying the bike, Kiox had particular functionality, which is still there. All the upgrades and improvements are not guaranteed and Bosch didn't promise you to deliver "user modes" for the Kiox. Yes, this thing builds the face and reputation for the company, but if they don't care, you can't blame they didn't do something they never promise they do.

 

[retiredNH]

Don't agree - I think it is the right size for the device with maps&navigation.

Well, this is your opinion, I think otherwise. When I am buying e-bike from a big brand, I am considering this as a single integrated solution. For the manufacturer it is a kit (they can select the display, remote, motor, etc), but for user it is a complete solution (and the fact you can upgrade some components doesn't make it a kit). If you want a kit, you should look at the DYI solution where you can select and configure/customize anything (voltage, power, sensors, etc).

Again, why you consider Bosch have to do this? When you were buying the bike, Kiox had particular functionality, which is still there. All the upgrades and improvements are not guaranteed and Bosch didn't promise you to deliver "user modes" for the Kiox. Yes, this thing builds the face and reputation for the company, but if they don't care, you can't blame they didn't do something they never promise they do.

There is some truth to what you say, but consider the fact that we can't spec a bike - we can only buy the set of components that are on offer from the manufacturer. There are some exceptions, like R&M bikes, but the vast majority of bikes sold in the USA, and all sold at bike stores, are take it or leave it. Yes, you can "upgrade" after purchase, at considerable extra cost, but that's not the same. Displays seem to be where the market leaders in the US, like Specialized and Trek, cheap out, to the detriment of users. For example, my $4300 Trek bike comes with the smart phone hub, a dog of a display kludge. I'd have gladly paid a bit more at purchase to get a better display, but not the $500 or so it would cost to replace it - device cost plus shop time adds up. So we make compromises, but that doesn't mean we must be happy with the compromises.

 

[ava1ar]

So we make compromises, but that doesn't mean we must be happy with the compromises.

Yes, this is what I mean talking about reputation. Company like Bosch don't actually get (or want to get) much of end users feedback, since they work with brands and LBS mostly. So, this is where they get their understanding what is right and what is wrong. Users in this case can only vote with their money and buy / not-buy Bosch-powered bikes, also they can try to share the feedback via the bike manufacturer (like Trek or R&M) and hope they will pass it and Bosch will willing to listen. Taking all these into account I just have my expectation about the future upgrades on the low level ("I only get what I paid for"), so I don't get disappointed (and get surprised when actual improvement comes it). As far as I see lots of people assume some improvements to be delivered and got frustrated if they don't. Just be realists!

P.S. Regarding SmartphoneHub - I like it. I think the reason is same - I consider it as a nice upgrade over the Purion (same basic info built-it + phone app to get more functionality if you want it), but others want to see it as an alternative to Nyon (which it is not, I even doubt it is at Kiox level). It has potential, which Bosch never implemented, but I hope they at least learned some lessons for their new platform and we will see true powerful and extendable successor of the SmarphoneHub for the new Smart System in future. I like the concept of using smartphone as display since you already have it and probably mount it on the handlebar anyway - why not then use it as bike display as well?

 

[Sparky731]

Hard to say at this point what the purpose is behind the announcement. It's certainly not a bold step forward. We consumers/riders aren't even the primary customers for this - bike mfgrs are. And some, take Trek as an example, aren't even offering it for 2022, as far as I can see.

Has anyone seen a mfgr with an offering (bike) containing this new system?

Per a very reliable inside source Trek is wiring a Rail with the Bosch System for 2022.

 

[SPSP2]

Again, why you consider Bosch have to do this? When you were buying the bike, Kiox had particular functionality, which is still there. All the upgrades and improvements are not guaranteed and Bosch didn't promise you to deliver "user modes" for the Kiox. Yes, this thing builds the face and reputation for the company, but if they don't care, you can't blame they didn't do something they never promise they do.

Again, I said that due to the release of the new model, the development of the old one will not be done. I mentioned this as one of the possible reasons for cutting off compatibility. Because it is technically possible to develop these properties in the old model.
This is simply the impact on users of the year-old expensive ebike where Bosch components are walled up.
Also note that the situation of ebike users for trekking and sports ebike users for trails, freeride and enduro is different. Failure to upgrade some components could result in severe falls or injuries.

 

[ava1ar]

Again, I said that due to the release of the new model, the development of the old one will not be done. I mentioned this as one of the possible reasons for cutting off compatibility. Because it is technically possible to develop these properties in the old model.

This is your guess. My guess is that they simply want to start from scratch to be able to re-implement things in new way and move faster (no need to spend time for firmware upgrade and backward compatibility verification with all existing displays, controllers, motors, etc.). They built large set of things on the old platform and moving further keeping the compatibility with all of them is difficult and slow. Since neither you nor me have the insider information about this, we can only guess why this was done.

Also note that the situation of ebike users for trekking and sports ebike users for trails, freeride and enduro is different. Failure to upgrade some components could result in severe falls or injuries.

Care to provide some examples or clarify more what components without updates can cause anything like this? For now I just think you overdramatize what is happening. Other manufactures break backward comparibility in their e-bikes time to time, so I don't ser why Bosch can't do as well (even if me, you and everyone else don't like it).

 

[SPSP2]

This is your guess. My guess is that they simply want to start from scratch to be able to re-implement things in new way and move faster (no need to spend time for firmware upgrade and backward compatibility verification with all existing displays, controllers, motors, etc.). They built large set of things on the old platform and moving further keeping the compatibility with all of them is difficult and slow. Since neither you nor me have the insider information about this, we can only guess why this was done.

Yes, it is my guess. Maybe it is a challenge for Bosch. It would be a kind surprise for users if it were otherwise.

Care to provide some examples or clarify more what components without updates can cause anything like this? For now I just think you overdramatize what is happening. Other manufactures break backward comparibility in their e-bikes time to time, so I don't ser why Bosch can't do as well (even if me, you and everyone else don't like it).

Most users of freeride, trail and enduro bikes will rebuild the bike immediately or soon after purchase and sell unused components. For example (out of order) saddle, pedals, damping, fork, seatpost, handlebars, rims, tires, cranks, brakes... Because it is simply standardized, or there are reductions, so it is possible many years after buying a bike. But not so mounted engine and electronics.
I don't want to discuss why the vast majority (all?) of such users need and have to change components and how it affects driving characteristics and safety, that's what other sites are like.

 

[ava1ar]

Most users of freeride, trail and enduro bikes will rebuild the bike immediately or soon after purchase and sell unused components. For example (out of order) saddle, pedals, damping, fork, seatpost, handlebars, rims, tires, cranks, brakes... Because it is simply standardized, or there are reductions, so it is possible many years after buying a bike. But not so mounted engine and electronics.
I don't want to discuss why the vast majority (all?) of such users need and have to change components and how it affects driving characteristics and safety, that's what other sites are like.

That's all fine, I did change some stuff on my non-MTB bike as well and plan to change more, but how Bosch relates to this?

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Hello all!

There seems to be a bit of confusion surrounding the smart system, so I'll do my best to clear some of it up. Please keep in mind that this is my own personal understanding/perspective, not an official message from Bosch.

The new Bosch smart system (system 3) uses CAN FD to communicate, where the current system (system 2) uses standard CAN. Additionally, the physical connectors for the smart system are all new, allowing for increased modularity, etc.

Example of new modularity: smart system can be operated with just the new LED remote, or a display (Kiox 300) can be added in-line. This swap can easily be done at the parking lot of the trailhead, or even out on the trail if you change your mind. Why would you do this? If your eMTB ride looks like it might be rainy/muddy/risky, maybe you elect to leave the Kiox 300 safely in your car/bag/at home?

End-consumers and IBDs have been asking for more modular, plug-n-play remotes/displays for years, and Bosch has responded. When new smart system displays are released in the future, you'll likely be able to install one yourself at home, and perform a software update yourself at home. This is just one part of it, but I feel it is a good example, as well as an exciting new option.

A big part of the smart system is the new Bosch Flow app. In addition to allowing for OTA updates, custom ride modes, etc., there is an increased level of connectivity with outside features and options. There are a limited number of Flow app features during the initial launch, but more will be added over time.

There are a few OEMs that already have smart system-equipped eBikes in production, with some possibly already on the shop floor. I can't recall which are still embargoed, so I won't mention any names yet.

Bosch will gradually transition towards the smart system, but the current System 2 products lines are just that- still current. I can appreciate all of the various perspectives on the incompatibility between System 2 and 3, but at some point a company must respond to the demand for different features and technology. I'm not sure I fully understand the concept of a purchaser of a product being owed an undetermined number of additional feature upgrades, based solely on the introduction of a new product by the same company. Fixes? Yes. But the delivery of new features and capabilities that were not there before?

A few months back, I purchased a brand new MY2021 vehicle with the most current safety system. Soon after that, the company announced a new and improved generation of the safety system for their MY2022 vehicle. At no point have I felt cheated, shorted, or forgotten. They gave me the safety system I agreed to purchase. I'm not trying to suggest that anyone should feel a certain way about Bosch's products, but I am hoping to demonstrate my perspective as a consumer, not just a technical representative for a company.

Hopefully this was helpful. I'll do my best to answer any additional specific questions regarding compatibility, and/or attempt to share my understanding of the reasoning behind Bosch's decisions.

 

[retiredNH]

Thank you William, for clarifying. Let me clarify, too, from one user/customer's viewpoint. The new system would be palatable to us current customers if Bosch were to offer an upgrade path to current owners, but it obviously isn't. Instead we're stuck with a grab bag of largely incompatible (with each other ) displays.

Your analogy to cars is interesting, but largely irrelevant, because cars are a much more complicated device, and improved safety systems often change multiple components. We're also used to planned, yearly obsolescence with automobiles, but bicycles? No. Instead, bike component improvements in the past have largely been available to anyone, easily swapped out - ever upgrade a cassette?

This change might also be more tolerable if the current offerings were more "finished". But instead, some at least seem more like a work in progress, where Bosch is just giving up. Smartphone hub/cobi.bike being a prime example.

 

[ava1ar]

The new Bosch smart system (system 3) uses CAN FD to communicate, where the current system (system 2) uses standard CAN.

Thanks for clarification, changing the low-level communication protocol is a valid reason to break backward compatibility. I am in software development industry myself for 15 years and perfectly understand the challenges you guys are seeing (however in hardware it is even more complex since the ability to customize older system is very limited).

I'm not sure I fully understand the concept of a purchaser of a product being owed an undetermined number of additional feature upgrades, based solely on the introduction of a new product by the same company. Fixes? Yes. But the delivery of new features and capabilities that were not there before?

This is what I try to understand as well. Somehow people expect all the new features of the upcoming bikes to be available on their older generations by default and I don't understand why. I don't think any hardware-related industry do that (and realistically can). I personally have chosen Bosch for their proven approach to support existing customers using older gen hardware - there is no problem to get required parts and perform service after years of purchase. So buying Bosch-powered bike I am sure I will have a chance to buy new battery for my bike in 2-3 years if I need to (and this is not the case with lots of smaller brands and propitiatory parts/system when I don't know will they be around in 2-3 years at all).

Yes, there are valid concerns about the functionality/interoperability of the displays for the old-gen system, but I hope Bosch learned from past mistakes and new software/hardware stuck will be more consistent and future-proof. But even for older displays Bosch managed to deliver new great functionality for the display where it was not there initially (like navigation for Kiox).

 

[ava1ar]

This change might also be more tolerable if the current offerings were more "finished". But instead, some at least seem more like a work in progress, where Bosch is just giving up. Smartphone hub/cobi.bike being a prime example.

I am using Cobi.BIKE app for few month and it works pretty good to me (with Android phone). What exactly are "work in progress feature Bosch is giving up"? Are you talking about something like assistance level customizations? I don't think it was even promised at all, so not sure you expected Bosch will bring it there.

 

[retiredNH]

I am using Cobi.BIKE app for few month and it works pretty good to me (with Android phone). What exactly are "work in progress feature Bosch is giving up"? Are you talking about something like assistance level customizations? I don't think it was even promised at all, so not sure you expected Bosch will bring it there.

I've discussed some of the bugs elsewhere. The biggest, IMHO, is that if you're on the fitness screen, navigation stops working. The mileage remaining indication doesn't even update until you leave the fitness screen. At first, I thought my system was freezing. With more use, I found it wasn't freezing, it just stopped updating or announcing turns. Another is rydies, which is useless in North America. But the options for screens are very limited.
Navigation? I plan navigation in Komoot, but ride stats are uploaded to Strava. Two different apps. And I find Komoot awkward for route planning, so in practice, I plan a route with ride with gps, upload that to komoot, then use komoot to load to cobi.bike.
Yes, it's true that assistance level customizations were never promised. But were they promised to anyone else? I think not. Maybe we users are spoiled by all the other apps on our phones which offer a stream of improvements.
I'm glad to hear someone is satisfied with the limited capabilities of cobi.bike.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I promised to myself not to talk about Bosch e-bikes but there's one thing I cannot really understand: Why does Bosch insist on having everything in the display instead of just making a reliable ANT+ transmission and let the users use more appropriate devices of their choice: smartphones, Garmin, Wahoo...?

 

[ava1ar]

Why does Bosch insist on having everything in the display instead of just making a reliable ANT+ transmission and let the users use more appropriate devices of their choice: smartphones, Garmin, Wahoo...?

ANT+ is a limited protocol, designed for sensors connectivity. Even you implement it, you still need to have an app/display to control the ebike. I don't think they consider this that important, however I do agree having the ability to read internal sensors data via ANT+ would be good feature (however won't be a game changer for sure).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

ANT+ is a limited protocol, designed for sensors connectivity. Even you implement it, you still need to have an app/display to control the ebike. I don't think they consider this that important, however I do agree having the ability to read internal sensors data via ANT+ would be good feature (however won't be a game changer for sure).

I meant GPS navigation. How on earth can Bosch E-Bike believe they can ever be as good as Garmin or Wahoo? Many Spec and Giant e-bikes come without a display whatsoever. Instead of buying a TCD display for a Spec e-bike, you can use a Garmin or a Wahoo. With Giant RideControl One remotes, a bike computer is the best choice. So simple.

Wahoo is far better e-bike display than most of Bosch ones are. And it is configurable. You control e-bike with a handlebar remote, not with a display.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I meant GPS navigation. How on earth can Bosch E-Bike believe they can ever be as good as Garmin or Wahoo? Many Spec and Giant e-bikes come without a display whatsoever. Instead of buying a TCD display for a Spec e-bike, you can use a Garmin or a Wahoo. With Giant RideControl One remotes, a bike computer is the best choice. So simple.

View attachment 104647
Wahoo is far better e-bike display than most of Bosch ones are. And it is configurable. You control e-bike with a handlebar remote, not with a display.

You have to recharge it and I doubt its s reliable. Plus who knows if they will not change it so it wont work. I control my bike from the remote.

 

[ava1ar]

You control e-bike with a handlebar remote, not with a display.

This was not the case in the old gen Bosch system, but now was changed and displays/remotes can be connected to the bike individually and work independent on each other (see info in the post from William about this).

How on earth can Bosch E-Bike believe they can ever be as good as Garmin or Wahoo?

Depending for what purpose you use them. For my commute COBI.Bike app does better recording then Wahoo Element Bolt (v2). Except of degree Cobi.BIKE app shows everything you have on the Wahoo screen you posted and I can navigate via the options using the same remote I use to control everything else. And it is much more readable since it is bigger and brighter screen of the phone. Yes, Bosch doesn't offer any advanced workout features Garmin (and Wahoo) does, but not that many people on ebikes needs them (and they can add extra computer if needed), but for basic stuff Bosch provided info is sufficient.

I am looking at the bike computers for several months already to see if they can add value to my riding experience and so far I don't think they do. I started with Garmin Edge 520+, which was very difficult to setup with tons of buttons and crappy Garmin app. Then I took Edge Explorer with touch screen, which was a bit better, but the custom screens setup experience and not working navigation re-routing functionality (looks likely it only can offer u-turns!) made me to gave up on Garmins, so I got Wahoo Element Bolt (v2) now. It's phone app is way better and overall UI is much easier to navigate - I think it is way better bike computer for the essential biker than Garmin, but as I said above it add very little on top of COBI.Bike app already has and not justify the price tag of almost $300. I am still withing 30 days return period, but I think I will send it back (not because of it is bad, but because of it's not worth the money with the usage I have for it).

 

[ava1ar]

I've discussed some of the bugs elsewhere. The biggest, IMHO, is that if you're on the fitness screen, navigation stops working. The mileage remaining indication doesn't even update until you leave the fitness screen. At first, I thought my system was freezing. With more use, I found it wasn't freezing, it just stopped updating or announcing turns. Another is rydies, which is useless in North America. But the options for screens are very limited.

Didn't notice that (but will check) - don't use the navigation on it that much, since Google Maps usually works better for me when I just need to go from point A to point B (I use Komoot to plan specific routes only). COBI.Bike has an API which developers can use to integrate their services, but it was not that popular in US, this is the reason you didn't see much application useful in US there.

Yes, it's true that assistance level customizations were never promised. But were they promised to anyone else? I think not. Maybe we users are spoiled by all the other apps on our phones which offer a stream of improvements.

New features to the e-bike and not same as new features to the app (or software service). App on e-bike is just a part of the story and it works with hardware with limited capabilities for extension. It is more like a companion app you have for your smart watch, smart bulb, smart vacuum, etc - you have interface and communication to your device, but to make a significant improvement your hardware side should support it. I personally didn't hear that any of these things would bring much new functionality using just software update for existing hardware - in most cases new features requires new hardware. So, don't think Bosch did something different here.