Bosch selling kit w/ gears to fix the Performance CX

[Chris Nolte]

Based on my experience the majority of the issues with Bosch Motor bearings come after pressure washing. This issue has been mitigated with the bearing seal kit which wasn’t present on the original gen 2 motors in Europe and the UK and this is why you’ll hear about more problems there. Especially in the UK where it’s quire common to ride in the mud and tuning is common place due to the marketing of some major retailers.

We’ve sold thousands of bikes with the Bosch motor and I can count the mechanical motor issues we’ve experienced on my one hand. A few were from incorrect crank arm at the factory causing the c clip on the drive spindle to break. I know this sounds crazy, but even if we’ve missed something with some of our remote customers that might of worked at a local shop. This is one of the reason that the large majority of our catalog is Bosch powered bikes.

I know many want to believe that Yamaha or Brose is a better system but the reality is their market penetration is significantly less than Bosch but based on our experience at our shop the failures have been dramatic. Especially with Brose, last year we had nearly a 50% failure rate on the Brose TF motor.

If you watch the market you’ll see certain brands like Raleigh switching to Bosch on several of there top models. I assure you it’s not because they’re getting a better deal. I generally don’t find the need to defend Bosch system, but there is common misinformation based on speculation and I want to help dispel that.
The reality is that this is a very new industry and there is little reliable information out there. It’s also difficult for any motor manufacture to truley predict the real service life of their parts in an international market with such varied conditions. I think it’s good that Bosch is offering this though and from my side it shows that they have listening to the market and following its needs. I am also sure that they are working to continual improve on previous iterations. I continue to be excited about what the future of this industry brings.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Rover1701]

Based on my experience the majority of the issues with Bosch Motor bearings come after pressure washing. This issue has been mitigated with the bearing seal kit which wasn’t present on the original gen 2 motors in Europe and the UK and this is why you’ll hear about more problems there. Especially in the UK where it’s quire common to ride in the mud and tuning is common place due to the marketing of some major retailers.

We’ve sold thousands of bikes with the Bosch motor and I can count the mechanical motor issues we’ve experienced on my one hand. A few were from incorrect crank arm at the factory causing the c clip on the drive spindle to break. I know this sounds crazy, but even if we’ve missed something with some of our remote customers that might of worked at a local shop. This is one of the reason that the large majority of our catalog is Bosch powered bikes.

I know many want to believe that Yamaha or Brose is a better system but the reality is their market penetration is significantly less than Bosch but based on our experience at our shop the failures have been dramatic. Especially with Brose, last year we had nearly a 50% failure rate on the Brose TF motor.

If you watch the market you’ll see certain brands like Raleigh switching to Bosch on several of there top models. I assure you it’s not because they’re getting a better deal. I generally don’t find the need to defend Bosch system, but there is common misinformation based on speculation and I want to help dispel that.
The reality is that this is a very new industry and there is little reliable information out there. It’s also difficult for any motor manufacture to truley predict the real service life of their parts in an international market with such varied conditions. I think it’s good that Bosch is offering this though and from my side it shows that they have listening to the market and following its needs. I am also sure that they are working to continual improve on previous iterations. I continue to be excited about what the future of this industry brings.

I hope this is helpful.

Thanks for the detailed reply Chris!
Your dealer experience is very helpful in getting a better idea of Bosch quality and reliability.
While I don't plan on ever pressure washing my bike; Do you know when Bosch started factory installation of the bearing seal kit on the CX motor for the US market?

 

[Chris Nolte]

Thanks for the detailed reply Chris!
Your dealer experience is very helpful in getting a better idea of Bosch quality and reliability.
While I don't plan on ever pressure washing my bike; Do you know when Bosch started factory installation of the bearing seal kit on the CX motor for the US market?

All of the motors in the US have this seal. In Europe some of the original Gen 2 motors didn’t have this but they all do now.

 

[JohnDoe1983]

Thanks for the reassuring word Chris. Also, is this problem only related to the CX, mine is a performance Line in Canada ?

 

[Haibike Rider]

At Performance Line Bearings, I have now stripped and overhauled a considerable number of mid drive motors of all makes and models. And I have now seen the internals of enough Bosch motors to build a fair idea of what lasts, doesn't last and why the failures occur.
95% fail due to water ingress. After speaking with as many customers as possible about their riding, cleaning, transporting and storage practices I have also built up a fairly good picture of why some motors get water in them and why some don't.

I have also had several motors that had never seen a drop of water and these had failed due to dust ingress. Believe it or not, the dust sticks to the silicone grease around the drive bearing seal and worms its way into the main motor bearing (More a regular maintenance issue than anything else).
After approx. 10,000 miles the plastic gears do show signs of wear, but are by no means "worn out". Another component that does cause failure is the main motor gear sprocket carrier, the aluminium is extremely soft and can wear to the point that the main motor bearing becomes slack on the shaft, causing crank play.
But, at the end of the day, this service kit can't be a bad thing. It allows most dealers and bike shops to be able to fix a Bosch motor without specialist tools and training.

The one big problem is, this kit only does half the job! How many people are going to be a bit upset after paying for a motor kit, only to find that their motor is still noisy, or their crank still has play, because the left-hand crank bearing is shot! Or the transfer gears are howling because the bearings in there are finished?
I do refer to this in my "How-to" video. But this kit has definitely got to be better than nothing!

 

[Over50]

... (Put 2+2 together, and look at the history here, and how early in the motor life these bearings are failing and how often it is occurring.) Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of the issuance of the kit or the reasons why...

This is the first I am hearing of frequent and repetitive bearing failures in Bosch motors. But I don't spend a lot of time on the European forums. Just know what I know from this forum and from the techs at my LBS who are Bosch certified. My interpretation of the issuance of the kit is that it is good customer support - supporting a lot of customers who are high mileage riders. It just seems logical that stuff will wear out with high mileage and tough, wet, muddy, dusty conditions. Nice that Bosch provides the tune-up kit. Can you tell us which brands/models you sell that are Bosch?

 

[John from Connecticut]

Based on my experience the majority of the issues with Bosch Motor bearings come after pressure washing. This issue has been mitigated with the bearing seal kit which wasn’t present on the original gen 2 motors in Europe and the UK and this is why you’ll hear about more problems there. Especially in the UK where it’s quire common to ride in the mud and tuning is common place due to the marketing of some major retailers.

We’ve sold thousands of bikes with the Bosch motor and I can count the mechanical motor issues we’ve experienced on my one hand. A few were from incorrect crank arm at the factory causing the c clip on the drive spindle to break. I know this sounds crazy, but even if we’ve missed something with some of our remote customers that might of worked at a local shop. This is one of the reason that the large majority of our catalog is Bosch powered bikes.

I know many want to believe that Yamaha or Brose is a better system but the reality is their market penetration is significantly less than Bosch but based on our experience at our shop the failures have been dramatic. Especially with Brose, last year we had nearly a 50% failure rate on the Brose TF motor.

If you watch the market you’ll see certain brands like Raleigh switching to Bosch on several of there top models. I assure you it’s not because they’re getting a better deal. I generally don’t find the need to defend Bosch system, but there is common misinformation based on speculation and I want to help dispel that.
The reality is that this is a very new industry and there is little reliable information out there. It’s also difficult for any motor manufacture to truley predict the real service life of their parts in an international market with such varied conditions. I think it’s good that Bosch is offering this though and from my side it shows that they have listening to the market and following its needs. I am also sure that they are working to continual improve on previous iterations. I continue to be excited about what the future of this industry brings.

I hope this is helpful.

HELLO !!! Electric Pressure Washers run 1500-2000 PSI - Gas powered 2000-2500 + PSI. Doesn't seem like pressure washing an eBike motor, bearing etc is
the smartest thing to do. Duuuh ?

 

[TrevorB]

I had failure after 6 months and 4000km, was 2016 CX and didnt have new seal. Lot wet MTBing, was careful washing it, hose only on shower mode. 8000kms on new motor no problem, regrease bearing seal on regular basis, bike has done more road riding and MTBing has mainly been dry conditions.

Don't degrease chain while it is on bike. Avoid hosing around motor crank bearings. Use damp cloth instead.

The kits good idea, something I can do easily enough. For more bearings see "performance bearings" website in UK. From customer point of view I'm more likely to stay with Bosch if I can service motor, also interchangeable batteries across different 3 bikes helps.

 

[Nabrxx]

The Bosch Performance CX Service Repair kit is now available. This had been announced last year. I have to admit that I was a bit skeptical but it seems that they're going to deliver on their promise.

It looks easy too. I think even I could manage that. All things being considered, it's not even that expensive.
My main complaint with mid-drives has always been that the nylon gears eventually wear out. Up to now your only choice was to replace the entire drive or have it serviced by a technician. The problem with the second solution is that now matter how good the technician is, there's always going to be a doubt about the quality of the repair without official parts. But now you can replace the gears yourself for 99 euros. Or have it done by your favourite technician. Great move in my book. It's what a lot of us have been asking for.


@Court should review the kit.

This video goes through the entire process.

What are the symptoms of bad bearings? I have an intermittent vibration that feels like a tire rubbing (but its not) from my crank area. I have 4300 miles on the bike (Raleigh Lore) and I'm hesitant to hand it over to an unproven mechanic--I usually do my own maintenance. I have the original chain and sprocket set-up. I've changed brake pad etc...

 

[Nabrxx]

I think it's great. This could potentially enhance the service life of mid-drives by a large margin.

I'm excited as well--anything to prolong the life of these investments

 

[JayVee]

What are the symptoms of bad bearings? I have an intermittent vibration that feels like a tire rubbing (but its not) from my crank area. I have 4300 miles on the bike (Raleigh Lore) and I'm hesitant to hand it over to an unproven mechanic--I usually do my own maintenance. I have the original chain and sprocket set-up. I've changed brake pad etc...

The drive will feel a little "loose". When you press on the pedals, it will feel like the inside of the drive is not tightly fastened. This could be due to the bearings or... the gears. Normally you would need the kit if there has been water ingress or other substances (as explained above) but if you are a fair-weather city rider the most common cause will be high mileage. 4300 miles sounds a little low for the kit to be installed. I know two riders who have had it installed up to now. Both had close to 30,000 kms... And they were climbing big hills in the terrain.

 

[Nabrxx]

The drive will feel a little "loose". When you press on the pedals, it will feel like the inside of the drive is not tightly fastened. This could be due to the bearings or... the gears. Normally you would need the kit if there has been water ingress or other substances (as explained above) but if you are a fair-weather city rider the most common cause will be high mileage. 4300 miles sounds a little low for the kit to be installed. I know two riders who have had it installed up to now. Both had close to 30,000 kms... And they were climbing big hills in the terrain.

Thanks so much for the reply, as my issue is intermittent it may take a while to diagnose and repair, but ill get it. Maube I should break down and replace the chain and sprockets...its also been suggested to be that some bolts may have loosened inside. I want as little down time as possible as I love my commute

 

[Haibike Rider]

What are the symptoms of bad bearings? I have an intermittent vibration that feels like a tire rubbing (but its not) from my crank area. I have 4300 miles on the bike (Raleigh Lore) and I'm hesitant to hand it over to an unproven mechanic--I usually do my own maintenance. I have the original chain and sprocket set-up. I've changed brake pad etc...

Intermittent vibration is usually caused by the small idler gear bearing starting to fail. If this is the case then your main motor bearing should be in poor condition too?
Remove your chain from the front sprocket and turn the pedals forward, listen for a grumbling noise, this will most likely be the main motor bearing. Next rotate your pedals backwards, if there is any noise now, that will be one or both of your crankshaft bearings.
If you need anything, just give me a shout at http://www.performancelinebearings.com/

 

[Nabrxx]

So a grumbling noise when moving the pedals forward is normal—but noise moving the pedals the other way will I date a problem—yes?

 

[Haibike Rider]

So a grumbling noise when moving the pedals forward is normal—but noise moving the pedals the other way will I date a problem—yes?

No, grumbling noise either way is bad. When you turn the pedals forward you are spinning the main motor bearing, idler bearing and crank bearings, so if there is noise it's likely to be one of them. Turning the pedals backwards, you are only turning the crankshaft bearings, so if there is noise there it is likely to be them. If there is no noise turning the pedals backwards then it would be a pretty safe bet to say it's the main motor and /or idler bearing.
See, clear as mud!

 

[Nabrxx]

No, grumbling noise either way is bad. When you turn the pedals forward you are spinning the main motor bearing, idler bearing and crank bearings, so if there is noise it's likely to be one of them. Turning the pedals backwards, you are only turning the crankshaft bearings, so if there is noise there it is likely to be them. If there is no noise turning the pedals backwards then it would be a pretty safe bet to say it's the main motor and /or idler bearing.
See, clear as mud!

I’ll try this out Sunday night at work—I’ll put the bike on a stand and clean and carefully examine everything. Thanks for the tip—I’ll keep you posted... no other ideas what the intermittent vibration may be?

 

[Haibike Rider]

I’ll try this out Sunday night at work—I’ll put the bike on a stand and clean and carefully examine everything. Thanks for the tip—I’ll keep you posted... no other ideas what the intermittent vibration may be?

It could always be a worn sprocket or chain? If it's a Haibike, look at the SES sprocket?

 

[Nabrxx]

It could always be a worn sprocket or chain? If it's a Haibike, look at the SES sprocket?

Thanks so much—I’ll keep you posted?

 

[TrevorB]

What are the symptoms of bad bearings? I have an intermittent vibration that feels like a tire rubbing (but its not) from my crank area. I have 4300 miles on the bike (Raleigh Lore) and I'm hesitant to hand it over to an unproven mechanic--I usually do my own maintenance. I have the original chain and sprocket set-up. I've changed brake pad etc...

If you are on original chain after 4300miles then whole new drive train (cassette, chain, chainring) will need replacing. I get upto 1000miles (lot mtbing) from 11spd chain before hits 0.75 wear mark (chain stretch tool), some say 11spds should be done at 0.5 but thats getting expensive. I also change my 15t chainring at same time, its cheap compared to chain €8 vs €25. A 10spd on road maybe good for +2000. If you don't replace chain at 0.75 mark it will wear all gears in drive train.
Typically cassette will last 2-3 chains in MTBing. Ebikes commuters especially tend concentrate wear on couple smaller gears on cassette, the ones used around assist cutoff speeds. The good thing about this is theses can be bought separately for Shimano XT cassette, for cheaper cassettes you are up for complete cassette. If this the case for your riding, consider upgrading your cassette to XT, may workout cheaper in long run.

Bikediscount in germany have excellent prices on bike and bosch spares, freight is steep at €25 but offset by large savings on parts on big orders.
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/shop/10-speed-402/brand-shimano

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Sam Townsend runs an E-bike dealership in California. Perhaps, he is the oldest E-bike dealer in the whole of the US. Starting way back in 1980's or early 1990's.
His store: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

In his experience, Yamaha has been the most reliable mid-drive motor out of all. In this video, he speaks about it.