Bosch Class III pedelecs cut out at 26.5 mph

[rudymsmith]

My 3 different Bosch Class III pedelec's cut out at 26.5 mph.
I have verified this now on three different Bosch S mid motor drives.
A Trek, and two different Riese & Muller bikes. All bikes are using the same Class III S motors.
What I have found from over 8 months of riding almost daily is right around 26.5 miles per hour the motor assist drops out, regardless of assist mode chosen.
I verified this several ways, police radar, time v distance, garmin and a element bolt, and lastly a car pacing me.
I brought this up months ago in a thread and it seemed to irritate people that I would complain that my bicycle(s) do not perform as advertised. I love to ride bikes. My ebikes make commuting faster and safer especially at the end of a long work day when at age 62 I am worn out.
I just wish the truth in advertising would be truth in advertising !

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Not a new problem.

In general, the Bosch system gradually lowers assist to zero as you reach the limit (25kph, 20mph, or 28mph as the case may be). But there do seem to be a lot of calibration issues that lead the system to cut out earlier. There is some evidence that Bosch also puts its thumbs on the scale a bit.

 

[EBRQuest]

I'm new to the e-bike world and saw this thread here. Are there essentially zero options for bikes that can go >28mph? I was looking through the listings for class 3 here, which seems to be the highest class..

Rudy, that's disappointing to say the least, that a bike as expensive as R&M is 'off' in its calibration. I hardly see that as a mistake. For all that money, you should be able to graze 30!

 

[dblhelix]

I'm new to the e-bike world and saw this thread here. Are there essentially zero options for bikes that can go >28mph? I was looking through the listings for class 3 here, which seems to be the highest class..

Rudy, that's disappointing to say the least, that a bike as expensive as R&M is 'off' in its calibration. I hardly see that as a mistake. For all that money, you should be able to graze 30!

I think it’s very generous to say that R&M is “off in its calibration.” And it’s not a mistake.

when I first purchased an R&M, the company advertised “Full power to 28mph.” Exact words here. As far back as 2018, I spoke to my dealer frequently on this issue. He generally avoided a direct answer. I took screen grabs of Riese&Mueller’s claims which they did not modify Or remove.

Fast forward to my 2019 Rohloff which was supposed to let me “access 28mph” according to my dealer. No joy. I’ve raised it with him again, particularly since Bosch released Gen4 with an upgrade, claiming well, here is the real 28mph!

After a lot of pushing and a very long wait yet again, I received an answer of sorts. First, Riese&Mueller was asked to participate and declined. Not a word from the “full power to 28mph” folks. I received an unsigned document answering my questions on Gen2 Performance Line HS.

MY17-MY18 - support in Turbo started dropping at 24.86 mph to zero at 26.4 mph.
support in Sport started dropping at 23.3 mph to zero at 26.4mph
even more pathetic in Tour etc.



Everybody who was around here for 2017-2018 model buying period is owed an apology for all of the 28mph claims.

Bosch claims that MY19 behavior is different, and the drop begins at 26.4mph, terminating at 27.96mph. They say that the MY18-MY19 bikes are backwards compatible and a software update should have “upgraded” these bikes to MY19 performance. I owned a 2017 bike at the time, and not only did my dealer not bother to tell me about this upgrade, my 2019 bike fares no better. I find it a little sketchy that with so many MY17-MY18 owners here, nobody noticed the bump, and no announcement was made. In any case, my bike is not full power to even 26.4mph. R&M’ s claims were just straight-up BS. Note that Gen4 also starts dropping at 26.4mph.

Prospective buyers in the US should be aware that my dealer (Propel) claimed not to know — this entire time. In other words, @Chris Nolte claims he learned of this for the first time earlier this month. OK, but perhaps prospective buyers need to start asking the hard questions and looking at these “dealer reviews” with a jaundiced eye.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Not a new problem.

In general, the Bosch system gradually lowers assist to zero as you reach the limit (25kph, 20mph, or 28mph as the case may be). But there do seem to be a lot of calibration issues that lead the system to cut out earlier. There is some evidence that Bosch also puts its thumbs on the scale a bit.

yes it seems the speedometer is about 1.5mph faster on both of my bosch bikes then my gps. its had to use a gps speed as it jumps around so much but it seems thats close. I was able to dial my tandems tire so the average rides are really close .
but cutout is around 19mph or so.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

I'm new to the e-bike world and saw this thread here. Are there essentially zero options for bikes that can go >28mph? I was looking through the listings for class 3 here, which seems to be the highest class..

Rudy, that's disappointing to say the least, that a bike as expensive as R&M is 'off' in its calibration. I hardly see that as a mistake. For all that money, you should be able to graze 30!

Ths Surface 604 Shred is a Class 3, and does 31 mph, no problemo. No drop off in assist, and if you have the 'legs' for it, you can hit 33 mph. (I did for a little bit, but couldnt hold it for too long) Torque sensing in the beastly power of a very high torque hub drive. Blows any mid drive away, hands down. Just do not get why people insist on paying so much more for mid drives, with $800 to $900 teeny tiny batteries, and for so much less overall value. 720 watthour, 48 volt battery. Rides super smooth on pavement. Long travel front suspension for very capable off road handling. 27.5 x 2.8" CST Patrol Tires. SRAM X5 smooth reliable,workhorse, of a proven derailleur. This is about the only e-MTB I can stomach, that isn't breaking your bank. $2299. Oh, btw the torque sensing assist level is 'tunable.' You can adjust it for the level of workout or exercise you want to get, or be lazy and let the motor do most of the work.

 

[fooferdoggie]

checking the bike out it is 500 watts not a whole lot of power there compared to my Bosch performance speed. so your saying that you have more torque then all the gearing that I have access to to provide torque? all that extra weight and then need for larger batteries does not help either. I go light mountain bike on our tandem with a bosch motor.

 

[EBRQuest]

Yo, Helix.. thank you for the no BS post. Propel is the original importer of R&M, so they damn well knew. As far as I'm concerned everyone in the market for a Euro-touring bike needs to read this post. I sure as hell wouldn't drop the cash after reading that. I got no time for more nannying in my life, esp. for $10k..

Ths Surface 604 Shred is a Class 3, and does 31 mph, no problemo. No drop off in assist, and if you have the 'legs' for it, you can hit 33 mph. (I did for a little bit, but couldnt hold it for too long) Torque sensing in the beastly power of a very high torque hub drive. Blows any mid drive away, hands down. Just do not get why people insist on paying so much more for mid drives, with $800 to $900 teeny tiny batteries, and for so much less overall value. 720 watthour, 48 volt battery. Rides super smooth on pavement. Long travel front suspension for very capable off road handling. 27.5 x 2.8" CST Patrol Tires. SRAM X5 smooth reliable,workhorse, of a proven derailleur. This is about the only e-MTB I can stomach, that isn't breaking your bank. $2299. Oh, btw the torque sensing assist level is 'tunable.' You can adjust it for the level of workout or exercise you want to get, or be lazy and let the motor do most of the work.

Awesome info Mike, so this Surface is the only one you know of that fits this spec? I'm ideally looking for an IGH FS MTB, Gates drive. I'd need a mid-drive motor to achieve that. I'm an ex-mechanic, just short on time these days. Willing to modify a good core with my own parts..

 

[Ebiker01]

I'm new to the e-bike world and saw this thread here. Are there essentially zero options for bikes that can go >28mph? I was looking through the listings for class 3 here, which seems to be the highest class..

I bought my BH Easy motion Nitro City for 5499$ in 2018, it stops around 31-32mph. I can never go back to a slow ebike.
Unfortunately BH has left the Us.That was the only reliable high end light (52lb) ebike that is pulling 28-29-30mph even with 7% battery left . Is like 10x better then a Stromer w/o the headaches !

For Us, there should be a class 4 , speeds up to 34-35mph. But at that level, the technology is not ready , need small batteries with high WH , min 625WH. Also many people do not have the experience to ride an ebike with an 850watts , 1Kw motor(See Simon Cowell !)
The newer ebikes have to be light- Anything over 55lb is too heavy for ebiking.

 

[Ebiker01]

d need a mid-drive motor to achieve that.

Also any ebike with the Shimano Steps E8000, providing that you buy the Speed box to delimit it , it will do 32-34mph !

Personally i would go with this option. Or Surface/Juiced brands but those have lower quality components. You could change them...

 

[EBRQuest]

Also any ebike with the Shimano Steps E8000, providing that you buy the Speed box to delimit it , it will do 32-34mph !

Personally i would go with this option. Or Surface/Juiced brands but those have lower quality components. You could change them...

Hey, thanks for this info.. really fills in the gaps of my knowledge. I rode a 27 lb. steel frame for years, and that was heavy for manual power. Got real old carrying up stairs to my apartment. I agree, the US should have a class 4 or 3 a/b, since 4 is moped. Way too big a country to be restricted to Euro neutering..

I gotta look into the E8000. What do you think of ECM and Luna? Trying to explore other options of companies that do in-house builds with open source motor systems.

 

[Ebiker01]

I know of Luna, Ecm i don't. With Luna cycles, or smaller companies , the main issue is warranty and time to send the parts/repairs.

I only had a Luna cycle 300w charger and it broke down after a few months. The cr agent wanted to offer a 15$ discount. I declined it.

Their ebikes looks great, are custom made , very light , and good reviews. But i can't comment on the ebikes b/c of 0 exp. with them.

If you get ebike with throttle you could use it , very gently though and with right balance to carry it up the stairs !

 

[dblhelix]

Yo, Helix.. thank you for the no BS post. Propel is the original importer of R&M, so they damn well knew. As far as I'm concerned everyone in the market for a Euro-touring bike needs to read this post. I sure as hell wouldn't drop the cash after reading that. I got no time for more nannying in my life, esp. for $10k..



Awesome info Mike, so this Surface is the only one you know of that fits this spec? I'm ideally looking for an IGH FS MTB, Gates drive. I'd need a mid-drive motor to achieve that. I'm an ex-mechanic, just short on time these days. Willing to modify a good core with my own parts..

Not taking a position on who knew what when. There is such a thing as being willfully ignorant. I will say I’m quite disappointed.

i will be posting the R&M marketing in the R&M subforum to flesh out the details on this. What is particularly cringeworthy for me is looking back on emails I received about “your trouble accessing 28mph” on my 2017 Charger — as though it was due to some shortcoming on my part.

It‘s also important to point out that it’s a Bosch engine on R&Ms — don’t recall Bosch stepping up, ever, to correct the record.

Going forward, I feel there is a tremendous transparency problem. I’ll say it out loud: who Is going to check out my 2019 bike if it’s even behaving according to the latest story? The “I didn’t know” dealer? what’s the point of having a dealer?

 

[EBRQuest]

I know of Luna, Ecm i don't. With Luna cycles, or smaller companies , the main issue is warranty and time to send the parts/repairs.

I only had a Luna cycle 300w charger and it broke down after a few months. The cr agent wanted to offer a 15$ discount. I declined it.

Their ebikes looks great, are custom made , very light , and good reviews. But i can't comment on the ebikes b/c of 0 exp. with them.

If you get ebike with throttle you could use it , very gently though and with right balance to carry it up the stairs !

Exactly! Was thinking about that. A good e-bike just opens up possibilities..

Helix, that sounds like good old 'pass the buck' marketing speak. Sorry you went through that weakness..

 

[rich c]

I’m genuinely sad for you guys that the 1.5 mph takes the enjoyment of eBike riding and replaces it with anger and the hatred of the companies for cheating and misleading you. EBiking has brought me much happiness and both better physical and mental health. It’s a shame that it does the opposite for those who feel so frustrated only goIng 26.5mph.

 

[dblhelix]

I’m genuinely sad for you guys that the 1.5 mph takes the enjoyment of eBike riding and replaces it with anger and the hatred of the companies for cheating and misleading you. EBiking has brought me much happiness and both better physical and mental health. It’s a shame that it does the opposite for those who feel so frustrated only goIng 26.5mph.

“I like being lied to..”

Sure, many people like E-biking. Doesn’t mean you need to patronize the companies that are dishonest.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

There are a couple of things going on here:

I talked fast last year and borrowed some speed testing gear (it was designed for testing racing skis) for a few hours. What came out of that (and some other measurements) was that the speedometer on Bosch system e-bikes is deliberately overstating speed, possibly by as much as 5 percent.

The other issue is that the pedal assist gradually cuts out as you approach the maximum speed. This cutout becomes noticeable within about 5kph of maximum rated speed. What this means in practice is that to ride at the max rated speed you will have zero assist. So from a practical standpoint with assist on Bosch bikes designed the way it is, it is very difficult to pedal into the maximum speed, because you end up doing all the work of pedaling a heavy and often awkwardly geared bike to that speed.

I consider this to be more of a human factors problem than an example of a large, heartless company lying to us.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

“I like being lied to..”

Sure, many people like E-biking. Doesn’t mean you need to patronize the companies that are dishonest.

I think the issue is with the way Enviolo was installed. @Over50 had the exact same problem on his 2017 charger. He could not go above 23mph before spinning out.
I then bought his Charger and replaced the Enviolo hub and I was able to go 28 mph no problem.
I once maintained a 22 mph average speed over 22 miles and maintained 25-26 on long stretches.

I have found Bosch Gen 4 more torquey than Gen 2 systems but both of these are not as powerful as a Stromer but for majority of the use cases, they are just fine.

 

[dblhelix]

I think the issue is with the way Enviolo was installed. @Over50 had the exact same problem on his 2017 charger. He could not go above 23mph before spinning out.
I then bought his Charger and replaced the Enviolo hub and I was able to go 28 mph no problem.
I once maintained a 22 mph average speed over 22 miles and maintained 25-26 on long stretches.

I have found Bosch Gen 4 more torquey than Gen 2 systems but both of these are not as powerful as a Stromer but for majority of the use cases, they are just fine.


View attachment 62040

Appreciate the feedback. The numbers I’m citing are not speculation. This is the response from Bosch (or so I’m told) to direct questions about engine performance. MY17-MY18 Charger Envolios were advertised as full power to 28mph. According to Bosch, it was full power to 24.86mph (40kph)
and only in Turbo. This is not my measurement by radar, gps, etc.

As should be clear, I find R&M to be dishonest. I will post their pages describing MY17-MY18 and let others judge for themselves.

Some here have criticized Propel. Actually, Propel helped obtain the numbers from Bosch, so I don’t think it’s fair to assume “he knew.” I am no longer a Propel customer, but that is due to poor service, not this particular issue.

When Specialized offered the Turbo S and Turbo X models, they were careful to distinguish between top speeds. It was 28mph vs 25mph or 26mph, I don’t recall. The Turbo X model lost some customers because of the lower top assisted speed. They were honest about it. R&M was not.

 

[dblhelix]

I think the issue is with the way Enviolo was installed. @Over50 had the exact same problem on his 2017 charger. He could not go above 23mph before spinning out.
I then bought his Charger and replaced the Enviolo hub and I was able to go 28 mph no problem.
I once maintained a 22 mph average speed over 22 miles and maintained 25-26 on long stretches.

I have found Bosch Gen 4 more torquey than Gen 2 systems but both of these are not as powerful as a Stromer but for majority of the use cases, they are just fine.


View attachment 62040

Interesting that you mention Stromer. In 2017, Stromer was R&M’s biggest competitor in the US, no? My opinion is that the reason R&M advertised “full power to 28mph” when I purchased my 2017 Charger NuVinci (now Envolio) is because they were trying to kill off Stromer.

The NuVinci (Envolio) hub took the brunt of the criticism at the time (unfairly, in my view). Now it is clear — from Bosch — that in fact, the decline started at 40 km/h, which is how the engine was programmed for Turbo. It was lower yet in lower assist modes.