Bosch battery failures

[retiredNH]

I read frequently on this board about battery failure, but never Bosch batteries. Has anyone ever had one fail or worn one out?

We can also read extensive advice regarding the best charging and discharging approaches, like never store fully charged, never go above 90% (or whatever) or below x%. But for quality batteries like Bosch, does it really matter? Note that I do bring our batteries indoors for the winter, even though the garage (where the bikes are) stays just above freezing. OTOH, I've had other rechargable LIon batteries that I left in our unheated mini barn, and they seem to have survived temps well below zero F.

anyway, just looking for some real world Bosch experience, not anecdotal advice gleaned from who knows what source. Thanks.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I have heard of a few but its been a great battery from all I have heard. I don't worry about charging them. since I don't leave them laying around as I ride so much I always charge fully. its best not to leave them I that cold its going to shorten the life. plus you wont get as much range out of the battery. Plus it has to be warmed up to charge. over 14,000 miles on my first battery.

 

[OleP]

My experience with a 500 Wh powertube over 16 months and 12,000 km is excellent. I am on 135 full charge cycles and 470 partial charges.
I follow charge energy (Wh) and mileage closely via an Excel spreadsheet and can not detect measurable deterioration of either energy content or mileage. There is a clear reduction in range in winter, but it comes back during spring / summer.

 

[tomjasz]

Local friend had his original carry him 14,000 miles. He bought a new but it still has some useful life.

 

[retiredNH]

Great feedback. Consistent with what I expected: you get what you pay for! It seems that the Bosch systems across the board are very reliable, especially compared to the systems used on inexpensive bikes. We may have frustrations with certain design decisions (especially displays...) but at least the gear is reliable

 

[Sparky731]

A friend’s Bosch battery failed last summer. Less than 60 miles on her new Trek Verve+3. LBS checked it out and determined a bad cell. Bosch dragged out their analysis 2+ months by having the LBS continue more tests until they finally replaced the battery under warranty. Bah on Bosch for wrecking her summer.

 

[fooferdoggie]

A friend’s Bosch battery failed last summer. Less than 60 miles on her new Trek Verve+3. LBS checked it out and determined a bad cell. Bosch dragged out their analysis 2+ months by having the LBS continue more tests until they finally replaced the battery under warranty. Bah on Bosch for wrecking her summer.

batteries were scarce then so I bet thats why.

 

[LimboJim]

A friend who bought my first eMTB, a 2015 Haibike FS RX with Bosch (400Wh), found last year that his approximate range had decreased by close to half what it was when I owned it (early 2017). He didn't have very many charge cycles (@50), but against my advice he frequently stored it fully charged for weeks on end. Luckily, he has an industry account so his 500Wh replacement was under $600. The motor is still good

On the other hand, my 2017 Raleigh Tokul iE with Bosch 400Wh still had 90%+ of its original capacity after 80+ charge cycles, at least according to the report the LBS gave me when they updated its firmware this Winter. I never stored the Tokul's battery above 4 or below 3 bars, and both of us kept our batteries indoors.

So I'm a firm believer that battery storage charge levels and conditions have as much (if not more) of an effect on capacity as do mileage, charge cycles, and even age.

 

[tomjasz]

A friend’s Bosch battery failed last summer. Less than 60 miles on her new Trek Verve+3. LBS checked it out and determined a bad cell. Bosch dragged out their analysis 2+ months by having the LBS continue more tests until they finally replaced the battery under warranty. Bah on Bosch for wrecking her summer.

LBS failure in my view.

 

[tomjasz]

batteries were scarce then so I bet thats why.

There’s a fellow on endless_sphere that TV sells Bosch reject batteries. He’s in the EU. They seem to reject packs for other reasons and he sold complete groups 36v minus the BMS. Are we certain where Bosch builds their batteries? Made in China? Or?

 

[OleP]

There’s a fellow on endless_sphere that TV sells Bosch reject batteries. He’s in the EU. They seem to reject packs for other reasons and he sold complete groups 36v minus the BMS. Are we certain where Bosch builds their batteries? Made in China? Or?

Bosch batteries minus BMS is just a bunch of fairly good quality 18650 cells. I think the fairly high-end BMS with lots of proprietary firmware and CAN-bus communication with the system is a great part of why Bosch batteries are lasting so long.
My 500 Wh powertube from 2021 is made in Malaysia.

 

[tomjasz]

Bosch batteries minus BMS is just a bunch of fairly good quality 18650 cells.

Yes of course. My point was Bosch seems very aggressive when inspecting and testing batteries. One anecdotal 2nd hand report likely doesn’t represent the extremely high quality batteries that a vast majority of users report. 14,000 miles on a battery is most impressive.

 

[OleP]

Yes of course. My point was Bosch seems very aggressive when inspecting and testing batteries.

Yes, and I also think that a worldwide company like Bosch, which makes a myriad of battery-powered hand tools and battery-powered garden tools, would not be able to live with a bad reputation when it comes to bicycle batteries.

 

[dodgeman]

I own a Trek Verve+3 with about 1900 mikes on it. I’d estimate I have charged mine going on 140 times. Still seems to have no reduction in range.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Bosch batteries minus BMS is just a bunch of fairly good quality 18650 cells. I think the fairly high-end BMS with lots of proprietary firmware and CAN-bus communication with the system is a great part of why Bosch batteries are lasting so long.
My 500 Wh powertube from 2021 is made in Malaysia.

mine Poland and Hungary

 

[retiredNH]

A friend who bought my first eMTB, a 2015 Haibike FS RX with Bosch (400Wh), found last year that his approximate range had decreased by close to half what it was when I owned it (early 2017). He didn't have very many charge cycles (@50), but against my advice he frequently stored it fully charged for weeks on end. Luckily, he has an industry account so his 500Wh replacement was under $600. The motor is still good

On the other hand, my 2017 Raleigh Tokul iE with Bosch 400Wh still had 90%+ of its original capacity after 80+ charge cycles, at least according to the report the LBS gave me when they updated its firmware this Winter. I never stored the Tokul's battery above 4 or below 3 bars, and both of us kept our batteries indoors.

So I'm a firm believer that battery storage charge levels and conditions have as much (if not more) of an effect on capacity as do mileage, charge cycles, and even age.

But we don't actually know whether storing fully charged actually makes a difference, since one data point for a pretty old battery isn't much of a pattern, is it? We should also keep in mind that a battery made in 2015 may have used different cells and a different BMS. It's not as if the technology (Lion batteries and BMS) have been static for all these years...

 

[LimboJim]

But we don't actually know whether storing fully charged actually makes a difference, since one data point for a pretty old battery isn't much of a pattern, is it? We should also keep in mind that a battery made in 2015 may have used different cells and a different BMS. It's not as if the technology (Lion batteries and BMS) have been static for all these years...

Feel free to store your batteries as you wish, of course, but please watch this video for a bit more of the technical explanation why it's stressful on the battery's cells to keep them full, regardless of brand, BMS etc.
Note that the part that's relevant here starts just 39 seconds in and only goes for about a minute..

 

[tomjasz]

It's not as if the technology (Lion batteries and BMS) have been static for all these years...

Actually, it has been static as far as many, maybe most eBike cells. Look up some of the common cells and when they were released.


Samsung 21700 50E 2017/12/19

Dates from their data sheets

• Panasonic PF: ~23A Continuous, 30A Max Burst Current March, 2012
• Samsung 30Q: ~30A Continuous, 55A Max Burst Current 2014
• LG HG2: ~35A Continuous, 55A Max Burst Current 2015-01-28
• Samsung 35E: ~20A Continuous, 27A Max Burst Current July, 9th, 2015
• Panasonic GA: ~20A Continuous, 27A Max Burst Current 2015/1/15.

 

[retiredNH]

Actually, it has been static as far as many, maybe most eBike cells. Look up some of the common cells and when they were released.


Samsung 21700 50E 2017/12/19

Dates from their data sheets

• Panasonic PF: ~23A Continuous, 30A Max Burst Current March, 2012
• Samsung 30Q: ~30A Continuous, 55A Max Burst Current 2014
• LG HG2: ~35A Continuous, 55A Max Burst Current 2015-01-28
• Samsung 35E: ~20A Continuous, 27A Max Burst Current July, 9th, 2015
• Panasonic GA: ~20A Continuous, 27A Max Burst Current 2015/1/15.

Guess you haven't heard of continuous improvement. Back when I worked for a company that manufactured things, the R&D folks, together with the mfg folks, had goals regarding product improvements. We didn't update the published specs for each improvement.
Believe what you want, though. Not worth arguing over.

 

[tomjasz]

Guess you haven't heard of continuous improvement. Back when I worked for a company that manufactured things, the R&D folks, together with the mfg folks, had goals regarding product improvements. We didn't update the published specs for each improvement.
Believe what you want, though. Not worth arguing over.

None of those cells has had any significant changes. All still the same original chemistry. Changes in chemistry are new cells with new designations. And trickle down to eBikes. There’s no fight just facts.