Battery - Backup vs Two On-board (Haibike SDURO Trekking 9.0)

[Erich995]

I am in process of purchasing a 2019 Haibike SDURO Trekking 9.0. I put this post under general as even though I am talking about a specific bike - this question could apply to other makes/models.

1. The bike comes with an in-tube Bosch 500 battery connected through the bottom side of the down-tube.

2. There is an option to add a second battery on top of the down-tube through their "modular rail system" (MRS).
- This is not an in-tube battery but rather the typical Bosch battery pack that sits on top of the tube.
- In this configuration, both batteries are connected at the same time.
- Of course, you do not need to have the second battery hooked up

3. I do want a second battery - so based on these assumptions...

- The cost between the two options is not significant factor in my decision
- I do not always need a second battery but need one for certain occasions (less than 20% of the time).
- I will have a backpack or trunk when I need the second battery

4. Would you go with...

a) the MRS battery option? or
b) the extra in-tube battery option (kept in a trunk/bag) to swap out when needed?

....and what pros and cons do you see with going one direction vs. the other?

Your input is much appreciated!

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

the extra in-tube battery option (kept in a trunk/bag) to swap out when needed?

The in-tube battery is long and does not fit into most of the panniers and carrying it around is a major PIA to carry just because it is too long and does not sit well inside a pannier. It kinda sloshes around and is annoying.
How do I know this? Stromer uses a long sticky battery and I tried carrying a spare around.

The MRS system can be installed at any point in time after the purchase (which is an advantage). I would go with the dual battery option with an MRS extender.

Most importantly, have you ridden a Bosch bike before? It gives you a rough idea of how much battery you may need. Although for your kind of commute, dual battery is highly recommended.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

There are three big reasons to go with the dual battery system:

One (and the biggest) is that you can plug the bike in and charge both batteries. Rather than have to remember to plug the second battery in after the first is charged, or by owning two chargers.

The second is that the Bosch dual-battery system alternates between batteries when drawing power. This probably increases battery life and certainly is helpful in keeping your batteries from overheating if you are ascending a long hill on a hot day.

Third, any battery is going to be a hell of a lot more secure locked to the frame than in even the most substantial bike bag.

 

[Erich995]

Thank you everyone. Sounds like the dual battery setup with the MRS extender is the way to go.

Now to figure out this rear rack platform goofiness from the link JayVee provided above. Sounds like Haibike made it way more difficult than it should be.

I am also getting the S model.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Now to figure out this rear rack platform goofiness from the link JayVee provided above. Sounds like Haibike made it way more difficult than it should be.

Many rear panniers fit perfectly w/o any modification.
I used Axiom panniers : https://www.axiomgear.com/products/bags/

 

[Off road all day]

WTF are you people talking about! this reminds me of the 80's designer jeans thing, their still just jeans!
Once again i took a $110 walmart steel bike, put a 450 watt cheap Chinese motor on it and beat the crap out of it on deer trails with 2, 12 volt SLA batteries wired in series for 24 volts. the bike weighed as much as a motorcycle but all the weight was at the rear!
Now i have the lithium battery but the same bike. I went to magnesium wheels, huge improvement!
So for about $800 i have a tank.
This bike is 2 years old, been though all 4 seasons those 2 years. first year peddling, next year with a motor. Needed a few spot welds, which i can do with a mini welder, but it hung in there.
I seriously cannot describe the amount of salt this bike comes back with in the winter. but being a apprentice mechanic at one time helps
My next project, the same bike i'm just going to buy a 20 amp bottle LG battery and put it on the frame, 50 amp hours.
I changed the hub gear from 16 tooth to 22, way better.
All my connections are 12 gauge, i replaced the originals i fried on a regular basis. 24 volts, 450 watts i'm drawing over 20 amps per hour

 

[Erich995]

WTF are you people talking about! this reminds me of the 80's designer jeans thing, their still just jeans!
Once again i took a $110 walmart steel bike, put a 450 watt cheap Chinese motor on it and beat the crap out of it on deer trails with 2, 12 volt SLA batteries wired in series for 24 volts. the bike weighed as much as a motorcycle but all the weight was at the rear!
Now i have the lithium battery but the same bike. I went to magnesium wheels, huge improvement!
So for about $800 i have a tank.
This bike is 2 years old, been though all 4 seasons those 2 years. first year peddling, next year with a motor. Needed a few spot welds, which i can do with a mini welder, but it hung in there.
I seriously cannot describe the amount of salt this bike comes back with in the winter. but being a apprentice mechanic at one time helps
My next project, the same bike i'm just going to buy a 20 amp bottle LG battery and put it on the frame, 50 amp hours.
I changed the hub gear from 16 tooth to 22, way better.
All my connections are 12 gauge, i replaced the originals i fried on a regular basis. 24 volts, 450 watts i'm drawing over 20 amps per hour

Sounds like a lot of work - my hope is not to have to pull out the welder. How does she do on a 40 mile commute?

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

I'd like to see Haibike engineer a retrofit dual battery setup for us owners of their Yamaha and Bosch external battery ebikes. Thinking of the way Riese and Muller has done with their dual external battery design....

Alas, something tells me that a company that makes it incredibly hard to purchase replacement battery decals is not interested in supporting products that enhance their older models already sold and in the hands of customers/riders. It's all about the next big dollar-sell.

 

[Johnny]

MRS. Just carrying a second battery can be inconvenient, on top of that I believe you will be able to charge both batteries at once with the MRS setup. You won't have to monitor battery charge level so often etc.

It is sad that Bosch is sticking with these outdated 500wh configuration instead of making higher capacity batteries.

 

[rich c]

MRS. Just carrying a second battery can be inconvenient, on top of that I believe you will be able to charge both batteries at once with the MRS setup. You won't have to monitor battery charge level so often etc.

It is sad that Bosch is sticking with these outdated 500wh configuration instead of making higher capacity batteries.

Nothing sad about riding 50-70 miles on a battery pack. I'm very happy with that capacity.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I'd like to see Haibike engineer a retrofit dual battery setup for us owners of their Yamaha and Bosch external battery ebikes. Thinking of the way Riese and Muller has done with their dual external battery design....

Alas, something tells me that a company that makes it incredibly hard to purchase replacement battery decals is not interested in supporting products that enhance their older models already sold and in the hands of customers/riders. It's all about the next big dollar-sell.

The issue is with Bosch's extremely locked down approach. Everything has to be done by a dealer to avoid any liability issues. This is their approach to make sure the end user is taken care of and the dealer network that keeps the product alive is supported.
The Dual battery setup works only with Model year 2017 onwards and the firmware for the motor/controller needs to reflashed.

MY19 bikes have the latest firmware and can accept the second battery.

Re: Yamaha, they are still behind Bosch when addressing the US and EU market.
Eventually, they will catch up and by then the motor and battery tech would be far superior.

 

[Johnny]

Nothing sad about riding 50-70 miles on a battery pack. I'm very happy with that capacity.

70 miles on a 500wh battery? I can do it only when I go eco and off at times , else it will be significantly shorter not to mention your battery will degrade fast if you completely drain and fill it which is a must if you want to get that kind of a range.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

The issue is with Bosch's extremely locked down approach. Everything has to be done by a dealer to avoid any liability issues. This is their approach to make sure the end user is taken care of and the dealer network that keeps the product alive is supported.
The Dual battery setup works only with Model year 2017 onwards and the firmware for the motor/controller needs to reflashed.

MY19 bikes have the latest firmware and can accept the second battery.

Re: Yamaha, they are still behind Bosch when addressing the US and EU market.
Eventually, they will catch up and by then the motor and battery tech would be far superior.

Ravi, thanks for that perspective. I lost sight of the fact that it's not so much of a Haibike issue then the drive manufacturer; appreciate you setting me right.

On another front, do you see Bosch and Yamaha offering a battery rebuild service for our older 400 and 500wh batteries as they age and lose capacity? I kinda think this would be a profitable side service for them to the thousands of their drives already in service.

 

[rich c]

70 miles on a 500wh battery? I can do it only when I go eco and off at times , else it will be significantly shorter not to mention your battery will degrade fast if you completely drain and fill it which is a must if you want to get that kind of a range.

My point is that there is nothing outdated about a 500wh battery, it's strictly about personal riding style. If the rider prefers to use another brand bike like a throttled moped, then 500wh may restrict their riding style. But when others pedal, and not always as fast as they can go, that riding style is fine with 500wh. My first Haibike Full Seven has the 400wh pack. It also provides all the single track riding I can do with that capacity. At my favorite park, I'm physically exhausted after riding 15 miles in turbo mode. The 400wh has more than enough range there.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

do you see Bosch and Yamaha offering a battery rebuild service for our older 400 and 500wh batteries as they age and lose capacity?

I highly doubt it Mike!
Replacing the worn out cells in Bosch or Yamaha packs need a lot of manual labor hours and expertise. Bosch would never make their system repairable by a 3rd party because of all the proprietary BMS software.

You are right. In the last few years, E-bike market has exploded and some smart entrepreneur will fill in this niche by offering replacement service for E-bike batteries but I highly doubt Bosch or Yamaha doing this. They would lose some profitability because to refill an old pack with new cells + labor = or > cost of a new pack.

I really wish we were not a use-throw away culture but it's not you and me deciding this. Commercial forces will force the decision i.e.,whether to offer battery refill services or just sell a new pack. Which one do you think they will go with?

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

I highly doubt it Mike!
Replacing the worn out cells in Bosch or Yamaha packs need a lot of manual labor hours and expertise. Bosch would never make their system repairable by a 3rd party because of all the proprietary BMS software.

You are right. In the last few years, E-bike market has exploded and some smart entrepreneur will fill in this niche by offering replacement service for E-bike batteries but I highly doubt Bosch or Yamaha doing this. They would lose some profitability because to refill an old pack with new cells + labor = or > cost of a new pack.

I really wish we were not a use-throw away culture but it's not you and me deciding this. Commercial forces will force the decision i.e.,whether to offer battery refill services or just sell a new pack. Which one do you think they will go with?

Ravi, Court's new posting has a visit to the FTH Power facility in California. This appears to be a serious, big time rebuilder of battery packs by the looks of his video. Link:

My Yamaha battery is still going strong after 6200 miles on the clock; however there will come a time when I'd like to see about the feasibility of repacking it to a 500wh standard. Maybe by that time will FTH Power be familiar with the Yamaha & Bosch packs. This facility looks very promising for our ebikes. Totally agree with you in that it's such a waste to toss a battery like this to a recycler when it could be rebuilt.......or even a core cost if traded in for a new battery via an authorized Haibike or Yamaha dealer.

By the by, got my copy of Electric Bike Action and it was great to see your byline in it about the upkeep of our batteries. Fwiw, after my run of 20 or some odd miles in the winter cold, I let my battery heat up to room temp before putting it on the charger. I let mine shut off via the BMS system. I don't know if I got lucky or if the Yamaha battery design is that good, but I really cannot notice any drop in power output after nearly 2 years of service and 6200 miles worth of battery charging.

The temp range I've pedaled here in NJ ranges anywhere from 120 degrees road temp in the height of summer down to the 20's in winter.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Yamaha battery design is that good, but I really cannot notice any drop in power output after nearly 2 years of service and 6200 miles

Yamaha batteries are really that good. That's the only battery from a big manufacturer (others including Shimano, Bosch, Brose) that can withstand large variations in the temperature. They do have a bigger temperature window than most batteries and they warranty it for 600-700 cycles almost double compared to other drive manufacturers. if you already did not know, Yamaha is offering 600whr packs.

Check this out: https://global.yamaha-motor.com/business/e-bike-systems/products/battery-charger/index.html#ml

 

[Johnny]

My point is that there is nothing outdated about a 500wh battery, it's strictly about personal riding style. If the rider prefers to use another brand bike like a throttled moped, then 500wh may restrict their riding style. But when others pedal, and not always as fast as they can go, that riding style is fine with 500wh. My first Haibike Full Seven has the 400wh pack. It also provides all the single track riding I can do with that capacity. At my favorite park, I'm physically exhausted after riding 15 miles in turbo mode. The 400wh has more than enough range there.

Although I agree that it depends on your needs I still think the capacity is simply sub par in today's standards. Again 500wh (it is actually more like 485wh I believe) is not really available if you want to prolong the battery life. The real capacity available in this case is more like %65 of the rated capacity and that is around 325Wh. That is quite low. Increasing capacity is just about adding cells in parallel. So far the only thing they do is to rearrange the cells to fit it on front tube.

Bosch can come up with batteries having different capacities and we can have a better solution than slapping two packs on the frame. Or better yet it can let the bike manufacturers decide on the capacity of the battery pack.

 

[DDBB]

Will the multi location Yamaha 600 battery fit on the downtube where a 500 watt hour battery goes now? Doesn't look like it but it does say "multi location"