Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

[daveybike]

Unhappy with the display that came with it (DHC18?) I switched to a 750C and am only using 5 PAS levels. Or actually 6 if you count PAS 0, which I programed similar to PAS 1 only lower.

Anyway for 5 levels of PAS they use 1,3,5,7, and 9 as shown on the 1st page.

FYI: You have mentioned multiple times that "...for 5 levels of PAS they use 1,3,5,7, and 9 as shown on the 1st page." This is not the case for all bikes and displays. My DPC-18 on my Biktrix Ultra FS reads 0,2,4,6,8,9 for the 5 PAS set up.
Also current and speed modes on the throttle page are as follows on my two displays.
DCP-18 is as described below (the 500C is the reverse)
-The Current mode will allow the throttle to add in its power to the existing PAS levels pedal-torque sensed power.
- In Speed mode engaging the throttle cuts all PAS power giving total control to the throttle only (Not good in my world)

 

[Gionnirocket]

DCP-18 is as described below (the 500C is the reverse)
-The Current mode will allow the throttle to add in its power to the existing PAS levels pedal-torque sensed power.
- In Speed mode engaging the throttle cuts all PAS power giving total control to the throttle only (Not good in my world)

Are you sure about this?
I don't own an ultra equipped bike but the throttle setting you describe is a controller setting, not a display setting in the BBS* series which I believe that the Ultra shares

 

[AHicks]

FYI: You have mentioned multiple times that "...for 5 levels of PAS they use 1,3,5,7, and 9 as shown on the 1st page." This is not the case for all bikes and displays. My DPC-18 on my Biktrix Ultra FS reads 0,2,4,6,8,9 for the 5 PAS set up.
Also current and speed modes on the throttle page are as follows on my two displays.
DCP-18 is as described below (the 500C is the reverse)
-The Current mode will allow the throttle to add in its power to the existing PAS levels pedal-torque sensed power.
- In Speed mode engaging the throttle cuts all PAS power giving total control to the throttle only (Not good in my world)

On the bold, you bring up a good point. Because I ride almost exclusively in "ECO" mode, I rarely give a second thought to "SPORT" mode. I believe the difference in our opinions here might be which mode we are speaking of?

Interesting. You may also be right regarding the speed vs. power mode. Maybe try each for a bit, and get back with your impressions, or is this something you've already been playing with?? This COULD be display based? I don't know for sure! If I had my bike available to me (it's 1100 miles away at the moment) I'd be checking that out for sure.

Last, your world vs. my world. I beleive they are the same worlds. What I'll be the first to admit to though, is the fact we may have different riding habits. I'd like to minimize the right vs. wrong aspects, and focus on ideas/impressions (yours and mine). 2 (or more) brains are better than one.... -Al

 

[daveybike]

On the bold, you bring up a good point. Because I ride almost exclusively in "ECO" mode, I rarely give a second thought to "SPORT" mode. I believe the difference in our opinions here might be which mode we are speaking of?

Interesting. You may also be right regarding the speed vs. power mode. Maybe try each for a bit, and get back with your impressions, or is this something you've already been playing with?? This COULD be display based? I don't know for sure! If I had my bike available to me (it's 1100 miles away at the moment) I'd be checking that out for sure.

Last, your world vs. my world. I beleive they are the same worlds. What I'll be the first to admit to though, is the fact we may have different riding habits. I'd like to minimize the right vs. wrong aspects, and focus on ideas/impressions (yours and mine). 2 (or more) brains are better than one.... -Al

Thanks Al, I appreciate all your insight and helpful impressions. I'm really glad I came across this forum. To answer you, "ECO" is my go to 99% of the time. The ultra is such a powerful tool to have fun and get exercise in the awesome ebike world. BTW: I'm trying "smooth" today, looking forward to the results, I guess I will need to try "Sport" mode.
About me.... I'm not a "mountain biker", I never ride for speed, only exploring where my Juggernaut Ultra FS can take me. Steep hilly terrain, rocks, roots, mud, streams, sand, snow. I love it all. My Surly Bud and Knard tires with DT Swiss BR2250 rims stay on year round. I run 40T front chainring and 11- 46 in the rear. The Ultra never disappoints.
Have a great day..... dave

 

[daveybike]

Are you sure about this?
I don't own an ultra equipped bike but the throttle setting you describe is a controller setting, not a display setting in the BBS* series which I believe that the Ultra shares

I know, very weird, it threw me first time I ran into it and the online descriptions of these modes are so confusing. Everyone descibes what the modes do differently. My DPC18 In "Speed" mode, soon as I engage the throttle, even a little, the assistance in the chosen PAS setting, disengages completely. In the "Current " mode, the PAS assistance is not effected and the throttle just adds its assistance to the existing PAS percentage up until equaling and/or surpassing it. My 500C display does the opposite. Current cuts all, Speed leaves the existing assist on.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I know, very weird, it threw me first time I ran into it and the online descriptions of these modes are so confusing. Everyone descibes what the modes do differently. My DPC18 In "Speed" mode, soon as I engage the throttle, even a little, the assistance in the chosen PAS setting, disengages completely. In the "Current " mode, the PAS assistance is not effected and the throttle just adds its assistance to the existing PAS percentage up until equaling and/or surpassing it. My 500C display does the opposite. Current cuts all, Speed leaves the existing assist on.

Curious.. I haven't touched this setting in such a long time that I honestly don't remember how it affected the 860c display. I'll have to give it a try again.

 

[mxer]

I'm unsure what I set mine at (possibly stock "speed").

I like to use my throttle every now and then, but it instantly cuts the Pas power and throttle takes priority regardless off Pas setting.

Not a problem for me, although sometimes I feel it is hurting (conflicts) with the Pas peddling? Suddenly engaging the throttle at times. It's hard to explain but sometimes it does feel it's hurting the motor changing from peddling Pas to peddling throttle.

Would "current"make this a smooth transition between the two?. Not that it's an issue just feels if it conflicts but been fine so I've ignored it but in fear I may "pop" something later with this potential conflict, if it is one lol??

 

[Gionnirocket]

I'm unsure what I set mine at (possibly stock "speed").

I like to use my throttle every now and then, but it instantly cuts the Pas power and throttle takes priority regardless off Pas setting.

Not a problem for me, although sometimes I feel it is hurting (conflicts) with the Pas peddling? Suddenly engaging the throttle at times. It's hard to explain but sometimes it does feel it's hurting the motor changing from peddling Pas to peddling throttle.

Would "current"make this a smooth transition between the two?. Not that it's an issue just feels if it conflicts but been fine so I've ignored it but in fear I may "pop" something later with this potential conflict, if it is one lol??

I don't think it a conflict.... But I just change mine back to SPEED to see the difference.... I'm riding later today.
But they do need some separation. I've always thought of PAS like using cruise control on a car... You can't also input gas pedal and one input needs to take priority.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I know, very weird, it threw me first time I ran into it and the online descriptions of these modes are so confusing. Everyone descibes what the modes do differently. My DPC18 In "Speed" mode, soon as I engage the throttle, even a little, the assistance in the chosen PAS setting, disengages completely. In the "Current " mode, the PAS assistance is not effected and the throttle just adds its assistance to the existing PAS percentage up until equaling and/or surpassing it. My 500C display does the opposite. Current cuts all, Speed leaves the existing assist on.

I tried this today with my BBS02B/860C Display and the PAS took priority over the throttle. Only when the throttle output was high, more than 50% rotation would it overtake the PAS. This happens in both Speed and Current. Another observation was that when I stopped pedaling the throttle in Speed did not engage until 50% rotation if I was already moving . From a stop it was instant. In current it is instant whenever you are not pedaling. This makes sense to me.
One last note is that I have my Throttle is set to always be in PAS 9. I'm guessing if it is in By Displays Command I might get the response that you describe.
I'll try that tomorrow!

 

[daveybike]

PAS power dropping out with the engagement of the throttle is just rotten in my book, that is a setting that drives me nuts. I guess the Ultra is a different animal than the BBS02B???
- In my set up, If you set the throttle to "by displays command", the throttle will only give power up to the current PAS settings max %. Again, rotten for me, when I want the throttle, I want control over all my power capability. Mine is set to PAS 9 as well.

 

[Gionnirocket]

PAS power dropping out with the engagement of the throttle is just rotten in my book, that is a setting that drives me nuts. I guess the Ultra is a different animal than the BBS02B???
- In my set up, If you set the throttle to "by displays command", the throttle will only give power up to the current PAS settings max %. Again, rotten for me, when I want the throttle, I want control over all my power capability. Mine is set to PAS 9 as well.

I tested this a bit further this morning with throttle set to As Display Commands and it acted pretty much the same but restricted to the PAS I was in.
Expecting two inputs to work simultaneously is a bit unrealistic as my cruise control analogy demonstrates.
In my opinion the best throttle set up is.
Set to PAS 9
Set to Current.
When you want to use throttle.. Just stop pedaling. Throttle is full range, smooth and instantaneous.
Once you get use to it.. You'll realize that this is how it should be

 

[AHicks]

I've switched back and forth (power vs. speed) a couple of times (Ultra w/750c display, 5 PAS levels), but it's been a while now. I don't remember the PAS "dropping out", if that's what's actually going on, as a big deal? My throttle doesn't seem to be active at all (in either mode) unless the throttle power setting exceeds the amount of power being supplied by whatever PAS level I'm in. In other words, it acts like a PAS override. If I'm using the throttle (which is not often), it's generally to catch up with the wife or others, while crossing a road, or maybe for a little extra power for a short term "situation". Of course I generally ALWAYS use the throttle to get the bike moving from a stop, even if the bike only moves 18" until it's released. In any case, this doesn't change, or I haven't really noticed a change, no matter if it's "speed" or "power" mode I'm riding in.

I THOUGHT the power vs. speed modes were about how the controller handles PAS. In "power" mode, you assign a certain level of power (assist) to each PAS level, and your speed will have no affect on that amount of power, ever. If your situation requires more assist/power, you switch to a higher PAS level. If you're pedaling along and it feels like you are contributing nothing, or not enough, you switch to a lower PAS level to get less power (assist).

In "speed" mode, the amount of power available will taper off as you get to a certain speed. If you want to go faster than this speed, you need to increase to the next level of PAS. This leads, if I remember correctly, to the situation where it seems like no matter how hard you pedal, the bike goes no faster. You can back way off on the amount of effort you're contributing, and the bike doesn't slow...... HOWEVER, if you are riding within the speed limitations of the current PAS level, I think this mode may be smoother when it comes to torque sensing?

Does that make any sense? -Al

 

[Gionnirocket]

I've switched back and forth (power vs. speed) a couple of times (Ultra w/750c display, 5 PAS levels), but it's been a while now. I don't remember the PAS "dropping out", if that's what's actually going on, as a big deal? My throttle doesn't seem to be active at all (in either mode) unless the throttle power setting exceeds the amount of power being supplied by whatever PAS level I'm in. In other words, it acts like a PAS override. If I'm using the throttle (which is not often), it's generally to catch up with the wife or others, while crossing a road, or maybe for a little extra power for a short term "situation". Of course I generally ALWAYS use the throttle to get the bike moving from a stop, even if the bike only moves 18" until it's released. In any case, this doesn't change, or I haven't really noticed a change, no matter if it's "speed" or "power" mode I'm riding in.

I THOUGHT the power vs. speed modes were about how the controller handles PAS. In "power" mode, you assign a certain level of power (assist) to each PAS level, and your speed will have no affect on that amount of power, ever. If your situation requires more assist/power, you switch to a higher PAS level. If you're pedaling along and it feels like you are contributing nothing, or not enough, you switch to a lower PAS level to get less power (assist).

In "speed" mode, the amount of power available will taper off as you get to a certain speed. If you want to go faster than this speed, you need to increase to the next level of PAS. This leads, if I remember correctly, to the situation where it seems like no matter how hard you pedal, the bike goes no faster. You can back way off on the amount of effort you're contributing, and the bike doesn't slow...... HOWEVER, if you are riding within the speed limitations of the current PAS level, I think this mode may be smoother when it comes to torque sensing?

Does that make any sense? -Al

The way it works on the BBS02B is....
In Current mode it works in a linear output from 0a to 20a... or what ever your max is.
But again you must NOT be pedaling or the PAS will take priority in the lower half of the scale and the throttle will in the upper half with a not so fluid transition.
In Speed mode it works similarly but the throttle range is from 0mph to what ever your max is set to. From a stand still, ok. But if rolling it doesn't engage until the throttle rotation catches up with the speed you are traveling at so most of the throttle rotation is negated.
This is why I prefer Current mode as the range is always full no matter your speed. This is because as soon as you stop pedaling the current drops to 0.
The key to all of this is STOP PEDALING

 

[daveybike]

Gionnirocket, We all ride differently. Obviously, our bikes and setups are not the same. I don't use the throttle to ride any distance, its for a quick up an incline, up a rock step, through a snowbank or mud puddle. Other than a pedal strike situation, Why would I "STOP PEDALING"???. If I wanted to slow down I would not need the throttle and.... I'm not changing PAS for just 10 or 20ft of track. BTW: off-topic, the "smooth" programming adds greatly to this feature.
Because your bike works differently or you use it in a different way and/or you have never had a certain feature does not make that feature wrong. This is a discussion, not a debate. I was just sharing how my particular setup worked. Critique me all you want, but to criticize me for riding a different way is I assume not what this forum is set up for.
- Not sure what cruise control you have, but my Mazda stays locked in and allows me to add acceleration at will. My cruise control acceleration does not suddenly die when I hit my gas, it allows me to add then slows back down to the original setting when I release the throttle. That actually makes way more sense.
Thanks for your insight, but please let me ride how I enjoy without telling me why I shouldn't. Especially if your bike does not even have the option. I look forward to more Bafang discussions. Thx.

 

[AHicks]

Gionnirocket, We all ride differently. Obviously, our bikes and setups are not the same. I don't use the throttle to ride any distance, its for a quick up an incline, up a rock step, through a snowbank or mud puddle. Other than a pedal strike situation, Why would I "STOP PEDALING"???. If I wanted to slow down I would not need the throttle and.... I'm not changing PAS for just 10 or 20ft of track. BTW: off-topic, the "smooth" programming adds greatly to this feature.
Because your bike works differently or you use it in a different way and/or you have never had a certain feature does not make that feature wrong. This is a discussion, not a debate. I was just sharing how my particular setup worked. Critique me all you want, but to criticize me for riding a different way is I assume not what this forum is set up for.
- Not sure what cruise control you have, but my Mazda stays locked in and allows me to add acceleration at will. My cruise control acceleration does not suddenly die when I hit my gas, it allows me to add then slows back down to the original setting when I release the throttle. That actually makes way more sense.
Thanks for your insight, but please let me ride how I enjoy without telling me why I shouldn't. Especially if your bike does not even have the option. I look forward to more Bafang discussions. Thx.

Trying to follow Davey. Not clear what you're describing. Lets take the snowbank example. I think Gionnirocket is suggesting you stop pedaling just prior to hitting the snowbank, and get on the throttle to maintain your momentum/speed. It would seem to me there would be little loss of speed involved? Just a slight change to your riding habits.

At the same time I get (I think?) your point - made clearer with the idea of the automotive cruise control. So that in mind, what is actually happening again? When set for power vs. speed mode? -Al

 

[daveybike]

Gionnirocket, We all ride differently. Obviously, our bikes and setups are not the same. I don't use the throttle to ride any distance, its for a quick up an incline, up a rock step, through a snowbank or mud puddle. Other than a pedal strike situation, Why would I "STOP PEDALING"???. If I wanted to slow down I would not need the throttle and.... I'm not changing PAS for just 10 or 20ft of track. BTW: off-topic, the "smooth" programming adds greatly to this feature.
Because your bike works differently or you use it in a different way and/or you have never had a certain feature does not make that feature wrong. This is a discussion, not a debate. I was just sharing how my particular setup worked. Critique me all you want, but to criticize me for riding a different way is I assume not what this forum is set up for.
- Not sure what cruise control you have, but my Mazda stays locked in and allows me to add acceleration at will. My cruise control acceleration does not suddenly die when I hit my gas, it allows me to add then slows back down to the original setting when I release the throttle. That actually makes way more sense.
Thanks for your insight, but please let me ride how I enjoy without telling me why I shouldn't. Especially if your bike does not even have the option. I look forward to more Bafang discussions. Thx.

Trying to follow Davey. Not clear what you're describing. Lets take the snowbank example. I think Gionnirocket is suggesting you stop pedaling just prior to hitting the snowbank, and get on the throttle to maintain your momentum/speed. It would seem to me there would be little loss of speed involved? Just a slight change to your riding habits.

At the same time I get (I think?) your point - made clearer with the idea of the automotive cruise control. So that in mind, what is actually happening again? When set for power vs. speed mode? -Al

Hey Al,

Just so I am being clear, It's current vs speed mode, not pwr vs speed mode. DPC18 in "Speed" mode, soon as I engage the throttle, any assistance disengages completely. In "Current" mode, the assistance is not effected and the throttle just adds its assistance to any existing assist.
Not trying to overcomplicate this. I was really just wondering if others were aware of these properties of the Ultra programing and displays. I'm also curious if the EGG rider display acts like this??
For the most part, Gionnirocket's suggestion is only relevant if the bike cuts PAS power when the throttle engages, which my bike does not. Thank you both for the conversation, have a good one. - Dave

 

[AHicks]

Current, power, whatever. Semantics. Same thing here. Let's keep our focus on point.

This is where I'm not following: "DPC18 in "Speed" mode, soon as I engage the throttle, any assistance disengages completely."

So we're talking "speed mode" as the choice in the controller parameters?
What tells you that the assistance is disengaging? Is the bike lurching forward or something? Does it re-engage where it was originally (similar to passing a car when your cruise control is engaged) when you let go of the throttle? Is this something you've verified/can see with the display watt meter? If you see something happening on the watt meter can you describe that?

Please be patient with me. Not trying to be anal here. Just trying to get my head wrapped around this for a better understanding of the differences you're seeing on the throttle in current vs. power modes. If my bike were available I would have tried it each way already.... -Al

 

[daveybike]

Current, power, whatever. Semantics. Same thing here. Let's keep our focus on point.

This is where I'm not following: "DPC18 in "Speed" mode, soon as I engage the throttle, any assistance disengages completely."

So we're talking "speed mode" as the choice in the controller parameters?
What tells you that the assistance is disengaging? Is the bike lurching forward or something? Does it re-engage where it was originally (similar to passing a car when your cruise control is engaged) when you let go of the throttle? Is this something you've verified/can see with the display watt meter? If you see something happening on the watt meter can you describe that?

Please be patient with me. Not trying to be anal here. Just trying to get my head wrapped around this for a better understanding of the differences you're seeing on the throttle in current vs. power modes. If my bike were available I would have tried it each way already.... -Al

Sorry I'm not being clear.
Speed mode = Soon as the throttle makes its connection to start engaging the least amount of assist, all pedal assist dies instantly. Any assist that's currently on for your chosen assist level, 25%, 50%, 75% whatever, turns off.

 

[daveybike]

- just to be clearer, only pedal-assist dies, the throttle becomes master controller and any and all assist comes through the throttle
- The wattage readout shows exactly what I'm describing and the moment the throttle engages, the momentum of the bike dies down to the throttles level of control, of course, it depends on how far you push down the throttle. I guess its best if you wait for your bike. It's harder than I thought to explain.

 

[AHicks]

I think I have it now, and that ain't right. Others please correct me, but I'm thinking the throttle should increase power in either mode, starting from where ever you're at, and returning you to that same point when released.

If I were chasing something like what you have going on, I would go back through every line item on every page comparing what I have now to a known configuration. For instance, if using "Smooth" then compare it to that. If using something by somebody else, use that. Hell, go back to your original setup and try that! I'm betting there's something just a bit off somewhere, and it may take a bit to locate.... -Al