Are my LBS BTN concerns valid?

[JRA]

Might not be the fact that they can’t pass certification but the fact that certification cost per battery is prohibitive and at this time apparently avoidable so why go through the expense.

https://www.epectec.com/batteries/battery-pack-certifications.html

 

[OldDudet67]

I read the first page but I didn't read any further . The way I see it you have two choices , pay the 3k plus and maybe get quick service from an American company or go the other route and get slower service for much less money . I personally went the cheaper way and don't regret it altho I have had to wait for parts . I built another complete bike with the money I saved from not paying stupid prices so for those times when I may have to wait I still have an e-bike or two running . Good luck with whatever you do/did .

Thanks for the feedback, you might have to read past the 1st page to get the spirt of the conversation. It was less about cost vs value rather the conversation was about if my local bike shops concerns about carrying btn's products because they didn't provide product liability for the bikes that they're importing into the US was valid.

The secondary concern was whether the lack of product liability by the manufacturer equates to poor quality products. The rationale being if they're not willing to invest the money ensuring their product are they also cutting corners on how they manufacture their product and what component parts they choose.

 

[OldDudet67]

I wouldn't give a tinkers damn on what the LBS thought one way or the other , he's in the business to sell what he has . As for the quality , I have two BTN bikes and for the money they are pretty decent bikes . Yes , I had a controller issue on my 2x2 fatty but it's a one off and they made it good . The other one is rock solid .

Hello, Jangles the question was IS BTN'S lack of product liability insurance AN indication of poor quality? The TWO posts on here (One by a shop owner one by you) talk about quality and warranty repairs issues, you mention that your bike has a controller issue, Bill mentioned all sorts of issues with the 1000 watt bike that was "reviewed" if you want to call it that. (for $$)

Did you buy your BTN bikes direct or a dealer? If so where?

Are you a bike builder, or a reseller? You mentioned that you have two BTN bikes and just bought a Mongoose Dolomite and referred https://boltonebikes.com/collections/ebikes on another group (they happen to sell BTN bikes and make no mention of warranty or return policy so it sounds like another wild west reseller...)

If you are a reseller or builder how do you handle product insurance coverage. (if a person gets hurt buying a product that is deemed defective are they own their own or do you have a policy) has your insurance company vetted the BTNs of the world do not have proper insurance leaving the dealer/builder as the legal manufacturer?

I think the consumer is hoping that the LBS gives a "tinker's damn" and will not direct them to poorly made or supported products as it is a reflection on the LBS? If I follow your logic a customer should not give a "tinker's damn" to the advice of Bolton ebikes as "he is in business to sell that he has and not vet his suppliers". In my opinion, this is the problem... shops should ONLY carry products they can stand behind, They should be reviewed or validated, they should not be given space to turn and burn (Disposible) products.

 

[tomjasz]

Personally I find little mechanical sense regarding quality reviews and safety in building on a Dolomite bike. Junk. Period. There’s a large hole in what constitutes quality. Except for the Dolomite frame, and I question that as well, every part is sub par. But the bicycle industry has shot itself in the foot by not developing a standard. Going forward a lot of expensive eBikes are going to be adventures in maintenance. And cheap builds are going to be expensive medical bills.

 

[tomjasz]

Edited for good cause.

Easy fella. Not a personal response, rather a response to the discussion.

 

[OldDudet67]

Sorry , I didn't mean it I'm just aggravated right now . I deleted that abusive post .

No worries been there!!!

I am an admitted advocate for the local US business men and just dont think is OK for the manufacturer not to do their part pushing off service AND liability to the local bike shop and ultimately to the consumer just is not okay for me. Especially as this industry is trying to take hold here in the US I almost feel like it's exploitive to the less informed which can really stall the industry at the mainstream level.

 

[tomjasz]

No worries been there!!!

I am an admitted advocate for the local US business men and just dont think is OK for the manufacturer not to do their part pushing off service AND liability to the local bike shop and ultimately to the consumer just is not okay for me. Especially as this industry is trying to take hold here in the US I almost feel like it's exploitive to the less informed which can really stall the industry at the mainstream level.

But selling sub par $150-$200 bikes in every big box store isn’t? Not meant as sarcasm. I just think this concern comes awful late in the game. Most LBS won’t even work on those miserable machines. Yet consumers insist. Do we think these lowball bikes have the sort of insurance you’re insisting on? I side with better regulations and liability coverage, but then wonder when does a buyer have to take responsibility. Like politics theses days, divisive, at best.

 

[OldDudet67]

But selling sub par $150-$200 bikes in every big box store isn’t? Not meant as sarcasm. I just think this concern comes awful late in the game. Most LBS won’t even work on those miserable machines. Yet consumers insist. Do we think these lowball bikes have the sort of insurance you’re insisting on? I side with better regulations and liability coverage, but then wonder when does a buyer have to take responsibility. Like politics theses days, divisive, at best.

Thomas, I am with you I agree there needs to be some regulation around safety. Matter of fact safety is my central point.... i think ebikes are in their infancy here in the states I would imagine the next 5 years we're going to see 3 to 5 million units per year being sold, when you get to that poynt you're going to start seeing problems and regulation could go in the wrong direction and move ebike in 2 the same space as mopeds.

I think the biggest difference between the $200 Big Box store bicycles cheap e-bikes are the Hazardous Materials and speed

If we're not careful you could end up with the wrong kind of Regulation when people start getting hurt and it comes to light that local bike shops her buying product from uninsured vendors, I'd hate to see the ebike business become like the motorized bike business where people are having to get permits to sell the products huge regulatory issues could lead to dealers having to ne certified to sell almost like the car business.

 

[harryS]

In my opinion, having liability Insurance doesn't convey quality in the product, but it does mean a smart business person has their butt covered. I suppose a lot of resellers start on a shoestring, but once they get successful, they realize they have assets to protect.

Insurance is a business decision. I might carry a $2M umbrella. Doesn't make me a safer driver.

The Consumer Product Safety Commission has definitions on bicycle safety. Big box shops like Target, Walmart, etc, are not going to sell products that can't meet CPSC. Sure, the tests are modest. A hand brake bike has to stop within 15 feet with a 150 lb rider at 10 mph.

If someone puts a $200 kilowatt motor on a $200 WMT bike and hits 30 mph, well that's a case of "hold my beer and watch this".

I'd have to see a BTN before I could judge, but if Jangles recommends his bikes, then I'll accept his opinion.

 

[tomjasz]

I have found out how much smoother and more powerful mid drives are over hub motors

Not to be argumentative, but that's a glaring oversimplification. I have a direct hub drive that will leave NEARLY ANY mid drive in the dust. Excepting a couple of custom mid-drives. I'm happy to read you've built using a BAFANG. A motor I support as well as ride daily. But I'm happiest with the slow boats. I sell BBSHD's but ride BBS02's and even still ride a pair of BBS01's. I learned some lessons without losing skin. Inexpensive bikes don't do well at all in a panic stop with a 30MPH mid-drive. Cages see a bike, not a 30MPH bike, and that makes for perceptual problems mixing in traffic. A cage will tend to make a left turn in front of a fast bike thinking it's coming at them at bicycle speed. 8-12MPH. My mild powered direct drive will run up to 25MPH with out ANY gear shifting. My newest MAC motor build is a one speed. I running a 36V cuz they're cheap, but a 52-60V could make it a 40MPH bike. But I defer to staying out of the hospital. At nearly 70 the bumps and bruises are hard to heal from.

Happy to read you've found a niche that fits for you.

 

[OldDudet67]

I stand by what I said about smoother and more powerful . You bring a thousand watt hub to a 1000 watt mid where I ride and you'll lose every time . I only do trails and hilly country .

Hello Jangles I was just curious who are you addressing in this message , I didn't read what anybody disputed whether or not a mid Drive was more powerful than a hub Drive

 

[tomjasz]

BTN have product liability insurance!

RPE and BTN, are both companies you, Kevin?

 

[tomjasz]

Hello Jangles I was just curious who are you addressing in this message , I didn't read what anybody disputed whether or not a mid Drive was more powerful than a hub Drive

They should, it’s a silly comparison. clearly there are more powerful hub motors. But hub motors don’t utilize the gears. Sorry old thread. Blame Kevin.

 

[tomjasz]

Kevin has been a good fellow to deal with. I like his bikes and willingness to communicate. Some here were pretty darn sure they know the eBike business, but all from chats in a shop and limited experience with BTN.
Soon enough there will be enough owners to get better feedback. And as is typical a good working BTN will be the best. After all 95% bought the best bike, Just ask em. <tongue in cheek>

I actually have a 36v 350w Mxus gear drive that the original owner thought was just to fast. She’d pedaled a one speed for 40 plus years. 8-10 was a bit fast. 15 was scary. Point is, there’s still a growing market for eBikes powered about like a casual acoustic.

As always, just and opinion. YMMV.