Are Electric Bikes Really Transportation?

[Rich Wolf]

Sure they are. It is what you make them. I can only speak for myself but I use my Wattwagon a lot more than my car. Shopping, commuting, recreation, long trips you name it. Average around 400 miles per month. But I came from years of being an avid biker. You need to know what you are doing out there to make it as safe as you can. Bright clothing, lights always on, rear view mirror and safe riding.
Of course a lot depends where you live. Many urban areas are total disasters for travel by anything other than cars. Many people are trapped in their cars because of this. Thankfully I live where it is less crowded, and I know safe short cuts etc.
Motorcycles can be safer cause they can keep up with the flow but when you go down physics take over and the results aren't pretty.

 

[PowerMe]

Anything that gets you from Point A to Point B faster than you can walk or run it on your own 2 feet is "transportation." Whether it has 4 wheels, 8 wheels, 2 wheels, engines, pedals, a moving platform, moving stairs, whatever.

 

[Nichen]

Hi George....for me, the electric bicycle is probably the best investment I've ever made. I use it to commute to work all year round. It's a 14 km round trip. I realized that after about 1,5 years I would be making a solid profit each day compared to if I would be taking the bus or my car. You know...here in Sweden it's around 8,80 $ for a gallon of gas. I also use it when I need to go to the warehouses outside of town. That's about a 20 km round trip. Before I made all those trips with my car. So I am truly saving a fortune by using my electric bicycle on a daily basis. I also use it for shorter trips in beautiful rural areas. I am very pleased.

 

[Nichen]

Maybe I should also add that in Sweden there are separate bike-lanes going along the side of regular roads for cars EVERYWHERE in the cities. This makes bicycle-travel in Sweden very secure. But there is improvement to make here also. Some cities are better for bicycles than others. And in rural areas the bike-lanes are basically nowhere to be found. I guess the Netherlands would be the best country in the world for bicycles lol.

 

[George S.]

Maybe I should also add that in Sweden there are separate bike-lanes going along the side of regular roads for cars EVERYWHERE in the cities. This makes bicycle-travel in Sweden very secure. But there is improvement to make here also. Some cities are better for bicycles than others. And in rural areas the bike-lanes are basically nowhere to be found. I guess the Netherlands would be the best country in the world for bicycles lol.

Wow, you've said quite a lot. I think a lot more people would ride bikes and ebikes if we had bike lanes everywhere. I assume they clear the snow? There is a lot of progress in Utah with bikes, to build bike infrastructure with road construction. And the more recent highway interchanges feature protected passage for bikes and pedestrians. Basically, the people working for bike infrastructure are bikers, the people who wear the form fitting shorts and clipless pedal shoes. The ebikers don't play much of a role in getting infrastructure. I'm getting used to riding on the sides of roads, even highways, but it's not ideal. The ebike industry in the US seems to be juggling a lot of balls in the air, at one time. I'm not sure where their focus is. The unpowered road bikers know what they want, and they seem to be getting it. Utah is now ranked #10 for bike friendliness, used to be about #30. But we are way behind you. There are a lot of plans for bike paths along highways in the rural areas, here.

The European gas price would force people to find alternatives. The average price for a new car is around $34,000 in the US, or maybe 27,000 Euros. That's getting out of reach, and the average car is 11 years old. I see a lot of motor scooters, these days, and I guess the 100cc motors get good mileage, maybe 100 mpg. (Maybe 40 km per liter). Around here, scooters are what I see, more than electric bikes. And scooters actually seem to cost about what the premium ebikes cost.

Ebikes are very satisfying to ride, but a lot of people who are young and in good shape can probably use a good road bike.

 

[JoePah]

Much easier in Florida but I now ride my ebike more than my truck or car.. As a result of using ebikes going on 6 years, my vehicles have low milage and don't need to be replaced.

For personal rides within 15 miles of home, an Ebike is definitely transportation.

 

[J.R.]

Transportation? When people have options, that's the best transportation scheme. Ebikes and bikes in general can be part of a personal transportation scheme for sure, but we all at times need options. As a person's one and only means of transportation? Maybe, in the right circumstances it could be. I tried to answer this question for myself this past winter. I wanted to ride my ebike more than I've ridden my regular bikes in past winters. I was successful in accomplishing that, but in my circumstances I don't want to live without options.

 

[George S.]

Calvin made a lot of good points in his 1000mi/13 month review of his Shadow. He rides his bike for what he does. That's Gold Medal status, in the scheme of things. But other people do long commutes.

http://electricbikereview.com/commu...adow-1000-mile-review-part-1.1636/#post-17349

The people who have been around this forum for the 'duration' seem to get more aggressive in what they will do. A year ago, there was a yearning for bike paths. Now, it's clear that might happen, but it won't happen soon enough. So people are using the roads. I also notice speeds, commute speeds in particular, are moving up. I notice, cynically, that the test of a 'proven' ebiker is that the standard speed has (at least) a '2' as the first digit. This has happened to me. I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to use a legal road vehicle that goes faster, and just be part of traffic. That's the 125cc motorcycle or scooter. I'd never get out of my neighborhood in the winter.

The industry, the retail ebike industry, seems to be oriented toward older folks. The 'step-through' is a great symbol of this. On the other side of the bike shop I visit (eSpokes/St. George Utah), the ebikes for young people tend to be 'off road' bikes, and now fat bikes. There are not a lot of bikes I would call transportation bikes. Their latest thing is selling camo hunting bikes. The value bike market may slide over to crowd fund campaigns. I'm waiting for the 'big guys' to respond at the low end.

If you have to have a car, even for 10% of what you do, the economics turn against you. The car just costs too much. The standard numbers for newer cars come in around $7000 a year, including big chunks of depreciation. The theory is that you take that money, $600 a month, and apply it to a house in the core of a city, where there are walkable/bikeable services.

I looked for houses that would work for two wheeled transport without owning a car. I thought about renting cars, but my brother pointed out that most rental agencies can't cover you for liability, you get that from the car you own. I'm not sure how this works. You need a place with car-sharing, if you need a car but don't want to own one. There are a lot of 'gotchas' out there. I lived in London, briefly, a couple of times, and it would be idiotic to own a car. But that's not how cities like Phoenix, Tucson, Las Vegas or Salt Lake work.

I'm getting more used to riding on the streets, using sidewalks, back streets, bike paths. But Winter would be tougher. There is a real windy season here, with 20mph winds and 35 mph gusts, but much higher on some days.

Are we tough enough for bikes and ebikes? Even the young people. There are people who watch the evolution of batteries, in particular, and some say "Don't sweat it". You'll still have your car, it will just be electric. Solar and wind work just fine, going out enough years. If you look at gas/oil prices today, you could say some of that is starting to sink in. Oil as a stranded asset, something no one will ever use? And you can still have your big house in the suburbs, the minivan for the kids. Kids do complicate transportation. That's hard to ignore. People may not 'have to' ride ebikes, and I'm not sure they will want to. Everything in Utah is wrapped around family and kids, and the kids need to go a lot of places. It's a totally suburban culture. Minivan World, or Suburban

 

[Brambor]

yes. it's complicated. I still have kids to take care of for at least 4 years. With kids and the location of our house at least 1 car is necessary.

I am surprised by your statement for rental cars that you need to have your own car. I did not hear that before. Interesting.

 

[Mike leroy]

The Bike as Transportation blog is very good! He lowered his cut off to 10mph in 2011 and got 120 miles.

 

[George S.]

yes. it's complicated. I still have kids to take care of for at least 4 years. With kids and the location of our house at least 1 car is necessary.

I am surprised by your statement for rental cars that you need to have your own car. I did not hear that before. Interesting.

You need a car to have car insurance, basically. It's pretty messy renting a car, if you don't. You can get non-owners liability insurance and a personal umbrella liability policy. Most people key in on a personal auto policy for collision coverage, comprehensive, which gets into the CDW stuff. You have to have a strategy before the kid at Enterprise asks you what insurance you have or want. It's easy to insure a scooter, plus you keep up on traffic skills. There's an issue of how well you drive if you don't drive fairly regularly.

 

[Ann M.]

@George S. I appreciate your perspective about living in the 'core' of the city, but Austin is again pricing itself out of affordability. Too much of a paycheck going to rent or own. Same cycle happened before in the late 80's/early 90's until there was a bust in the housing market; so what do you do to live when there's 2 people, 5 bikes, a bird and plants in a 600sq. ft. apartment and you need somewhere (safe, not fancy) to move to? You go to the 'burbs' or as we did, rural 27 miles east. Believe me, it was a big discussion; I'd never had to own a car before and my work made it unsafe to commute late night by bike 27 miles. But we found a little place with lots of trees, a little land and good neighbors for less than what a one bedroom cost (even now!) Our mass transportation is sketchy, so the ebike is a great alternative in town combined with the light rail & buses. Even being rural, its only 4 or 5 miles to the grocery store and other basic stuff, so my electric scooter, an Ego Vehicle or my Ebike work fine in most cases.

A mix of transportation choices can lend itself to helping the goal of getting more folks on bikes or ebikes; however, there really needs greater consciousness and effort and $$$ for bike lanes & sidewalks/trails to keep this a safe option. At least here, you can get a membership in a carshare program and all you need to rent a car btw, is a credit card. Yes you will pay more if you don't already have insurance, but that is not a total deterrent. As for owning a car, consider a well vetted used vehicle; I've done that several times and do not spend near as much as owning a new vehicle. Really, though the percentage of customers coming into my shop looking to buy an ebike for transportation has increased steadily since 2008. The surge in gas prices was just the eye opener. It has helped having kits & bikes that can go over 20mph--whether necessary or not- to appeal to a younger, technically savvy customer.

 

[Mike leroy]

@George S. I appreciate your perspective about living in the 'core' of the city, but Austin is again pricing itself out of affordability. Too much of a paycheck going to rent or own. Same cycle happened before in the late 80's/early 90's until there was a bust in the housing market; so what do you do to live when there's 2 people, 5 bikes, a bird and plants in a 600sq. ft. apartment and you need somewhere (safe, not fancy) to move to? You go to the 'burbs' or as we did, rural 27 miles east. Believe me, it was a big discussion; I'd never had to own a car before and my work made it unsafe to commute late night by bike 27 miles. But we found a little place with lots of trees, a little land and good neighbors for less than what a one bedroom cost (even now!) Our mass transportation is sketchy, so the ebike is a great alternative in town combined with the light rail & buses. Even being rural, its only 4 or 5 miles to the grocery store and other basic stuff, so my electric scooter, an Ego Vehicle or my Ebike work fine in most cases.

A mix of transportation choices can lend itself to helping the goal of getting more folks on bikes or ebikes; however, there really needs greater consciousness and effort and $$$ for bike lanes & sidewalks/trails to keep this a safe option. At least here, you can get a membership in a carshare program and all you need to rent a car btw, is a credit card. Yes you will pay more if you don't already have insurance, but that is not a total deterrent. As for owning a car, consider a well vetted used vehicle; I've done that several times and do not spend near as much as owning a new vehicle. Really, though the percentage of customers coming into my shop looking to buy an ebike for transportation has increased steadily since 2008. The surge in gas prices was just the eye opener. It has helped having kits & bikes that can go over 20mph--whether necessary or not- to appeal to a younger, technically savvy customer.

I've got chime in about California. I am personally "downshifting" my lifestyle as much as possible. I walk or run to replace my car, because biking is suicide on my street. The city acknowledges the dangerous road condition. The city is "calming" my street -- a major artery to I-280. Commuters will revolt after losing half of the lanes on a busy street. I just cannot imagine the scene when people finally realize they have been too busy to notice this major road change. I benefit from the road calming, but do not believe it will last.

At the same time, every last bit of land is being developed. The most impossibly steep hillsides are being developed. I just cannot believe the precarious foundations. I am about a half a mile from the San Andreas fault. Perennial springs surround us as a result of the faults. The springs open up after earthquakes. Yet, we cannot seem to squeeze enough houses into sketchy areas.

The wildlife is also squeezed. I got a mountain lion alert from the county today. County alerts are sent at least weekly. We have a serious drought. The wildlife is forced to the natural springs in the park. Some innocent child will be attacked before long.

What kind of public policy is this? It seems to be working at counter-purposes.

 

[George S.]

http://www.enterprisecarshare.com/car-sharing/program/SLC

With the car sharing you join some kind of legal entity, and it's designed for people with no car and no car insurance. This would be OK, this Salt Lake program, and renting by the hour. By the day it would add up. This is reasonable stuff if you are in the metro area, but they don't push very far out.

The deal where people are pushed out of town 25 miles for something affordable is tougher, 'cause then stuff like car shares aren't around.

If you are working basic retail or restaurants in most cities, you probably need a shared 400 square foot house/apt and an ebike. That's just what those incomes can afford. If you had to design a city where the people with low incomes could function, you'd see better transportation options. There has to be some kind of political shift. I don't really think the economy works, especially in the big, spread out cities. I can't go back to Tucson, Phoenix, or Vegas. Whatever they are doing, it's a band-aid.

 

[Mike leroy]

http://www.enterprisecarshare.com/car-sharing/program/SLC

With the car sharing you join some kind of legal entity, and it's designed for people with no car and no car insurance. This would be OK, this Salt Lake program, and renting by the hour. By the day it would add up. This is reasonable stuff if you are in the metro area, but they don't push very far out.

The deal where people are pushed out of town 25 miles for something affordable is tougher, 'cause then stuff like car shares aren't around.

If you are working basic retail or restaurants in most cities, you probably need a shared 400 square foot house/apt and an ebike. That's just what those incomes can afford. If you had to design a city where the people with low incomes could function, you'd see better transportation options. There has to be some kind of political shift. I don't really think the economy works, especially in the big, spread out cities. I can't go back to Tucson, Phoenix, or Vegas. Whatever they are doing, it's a band-aid.

Urban sprawl has been a failure. All I can do is downshift to adjust to the changes. I am lucky because I love to workout. I walk rather than drive. I cannot wait to get rid of my car. Car sharing is very attractive to me.

Most people in my neighborhood adapt by buying more cars. My guess is at least 3-5 cars per household. One or two electric cars, too. More cars are not the solution. Car sharing is a good solution.

 

[Mike leroy]

George,

I spent over an hour discussing the Polaris Apex with Mike Tumulty, 978-910-0008 x10, [email protected] . We believe the 100 mile Shasta ride is possible on one battery with careful planning.

The key technologies are: Active Trail, Full Regeneration and Back Pedal regeneration. The bike has climbed 82 miles of Oregon trails with 10% battery to spare.

Polaris is an established US company, that had been in the transportation business for a long time.

Do you believe the Apex is fit for transportation ?

 

[George S.]

The company has a LOT to prove. It's a very small battery. The regen stuff is hard to make work. They say you can capture 100w into the battery on flat terrain. A very fit rider would be slowed by 4-6 mph doing this. This needs some field testing and verification.

They are offering only about 250 wh with a 6AH battery. I think for 100 miles about 1,000 watt hours would make the motor a real partner. The best model might be to take the total climb and figure how many watts the motor may need to supply, at some specific speed. Suppose you say 7,000 feet of climb at 12mph. Maybe the motor supplies 500w and you supply 200 watts, an athletic effort. If you climb, say, fixed 8% grades, that's spread out over 15 miles (400 feet per mile). So at 12 miles an hour, it's 1.25 hours of climbing at 500 watts. That takes 18 amp hours. (500w / 36v) x 1.25 hours) So the battery discharge should be 18AH x 36 volts, about 700 wh. This is if you only use the battery to climb. Basically, Polaris is saying you will put about 500 watt hours back into the system, starting with 250 wh, to get up the hills. They can change any parameter they want, but we can still roughly estimate an energy equation.

I think they need to get someone like Court to test all these claims out. It's almost like they are saying "Wow, we are Polaris so we have to change the whole industry". If regeneration can be a serious technology, no one has made much of it, up to this point. It's all about watt hours. If you can charge while pedaling and not make riding an ordeal, that's a big advance. If...

They should be willing to set you up with a serious test ride. Nail this stuff down. Challenge all marketing claims. Do and understand the math. After doing these numbers, I think maybe a fit rider could get by with a 15 AH battery, but it's still a serious distance. So I'd want 30 AH. Well, I'd want 50. .

 

[Mike leroy]

The company has a LOT to prove. It's a very small battery. The regen stuff is hard to make work. They say you can capture 100w into the battery on flat terrain. A very fit rider would be slowed by 4-6 mph doing this. This needs some field testing and verification.

They are offering only about 250 wh with a 6AH battery. I think for 100 miles about 3,000 watt hours would make the motor a real partner. The best model might be to take the total climb and figure how many watts the motor may need to supply, at some specific speed. Suppose you say 7,000 feet of climb at 12mph. Maybe the motor supplies 500w and you supply 200 watts, an athletic effort. If you climb, say, fixed 8% grades, that's spread out over 15 miles (400 feet per mile). So at 12 miles an hour, it's 1.25 hours of climbing at 500 watts. That takes 18 amp hours. (500w / 36v) x 1.25 hours) So the battery discharge should be 18AH x 36 volts, about 700 wh. This is if you only use the battery to climb. Basically, Polaris is saying you will put about 500 watt hours back into the system, starting with 250 wh, to get up the hills. They can change any parameter they want, but we can still roughly estimate an energy equation.

I think they need to get someone like Court to test all these claims out. It's almost like they are saying "Wow, we are Polaris so we have to change the whole industry". If regeneration can be a serious technology, no one has made much of it, up to this point. It's all about watt hours. If you can charge while pedaling and not make riding an ordeal, that's a big advance. If...

They should be willing to set you up with a serious test ride. Nail this stuff down. Challenge all marketing claims. Do and understand the math. After doing these numbers, I think maybe a fit rider could get by with a 15 AH battery, but it's still a serious distance. So I'd want 30 AH. Well, I'd want 50. .

George,
I put all the distance and elevation data into a spreadsheet. I combined all the percent grades into 5 categories. I am vetting the detail here.

 

[Deleted member 803]

The company has a LOT to prove. It's a very small battery. The regen stuff is hard to make work. They say you can capture 100w into the battery on flat terrain. A very fit rider would be slowed by 4-6 mph doing this. This needs some field testing and verification.

They are offering only about 250 wh with a 6AH battery. I think for 100 miles about 3,000 watt hours would make the motor a real partner. The best model might be to take the total climb and figure how many watts the motor may need to supply, at some specific speed. Suppose you say 7,000 feet of climb at 12mph. Maybe the motor supplies 500w and you supply 200 watts, an athletic effort. If you climb, say, fixed 8% grades, that's spread out over 15 miles (400 feet per mile). So at 12 miles an hour, it's 1.25 hours of climbing at 500 watts. That takes 18 amp hours. (500w / 36v) x 1.25 hours) So the battery discharge should be 18AH x 36 volts, about 700 wh. This is if you only use the battery to climb. Basically, Polaris is saying you will put about 500 watt hours back into the system, starting with 250 wh, to get up the hills. They can change any parameter they want, but we can still roughly estimate an energy equation.

I think they need to get someone like Court to test all these claims out. It's almost like they are saying "Wow, we are Polaris so we have to change the whole industry". If regeneration can be a serious technology, no one has made much of it, up to this point. It's all about watt hours. If you can charge while pedaling and not make riding an ordeal, that's a big advance. If...

They should be willing to set you up with a serious test ride. Nail this stuff down. Challenge all marketing claims. Do and understand the math. After doing these numbers, I think maybe a fit rider could get by with a 15 AH battery, but it's still a serious distance. So I'd want 30 AH. Well, I'd want 50. .

I guess I am the opposite of you. I don't care about the numbers or the marketing information. I ride an electric bike because it is fun and know, that if e-bikes survive as a business, they will get better and better. I would encourage everyone who reads this forum to stop the paralysis by analysis, go test ride an ebike, and buy one that feels good to you. For me the key specification and mathematic that matter most is the quality of my local bike shop and their willingness to stand behind the products they sell. In my years as an automobile owner (about 60) I have never measured miles per gallon. I tend to worry about stuff like the health of my children instead.

 

[Mike leroy]

I guess I am the opposite of you. I don't care about the numbers or the marketing information. I ride an electric bike because it is fun and know, that if e-bikes survive as a business, they will get better and better. I would encourage everyone who reads this forum to stop the paralysis by analysis, go test ride an ebike, and buy one that feels good to you. For me the key specification and mathematic that matter most is the quality of my local bike shop and their willingness to stand behind the products they sell. In my years as an automobile owner (about 60) I have never measured miles per gallon. I tend to worry about stuff like the health of my children instead.

OK, I can respect that. How would you approximate a 100 mile ride in the Cascade mountains. I want to throw the bike on Amtrak at 9PM. Wake up on the Pacific Crest Trail and pedal to Portland, OR. How do I know the feasibility of the idea? 25 to 50 miles on one battery is not good enough.