Are 750 watt ebikes actually legal?

[Frostybikes]

I live in Ohio and the law states ebikes must have a motor LESS than 750 watts. This is also the same as the federal law, and the same wording for ebikes when it comes to that new tax refund for ebikes.


So does that mean, an ebike with a motor rated exactly 750 watts is technically illegal? Also not eligible for that tax refund if the bill passes?

 

[theemartymac]

Some of the manufacturers have found ways around the peak power measurements, so you'd have to see what the manufacturers official rating is on your bike. A 750w bike may have the exact same physical motor as a bike rated 350w, but limited by controller firmware, so the manufacturer can rate the bike as a nominal 350w bike, that just has a peak 750w 'boost'. You'll have to ask to see.

 

[Westlafadeaway]

It just seems silly to me that Musk can gloat that he has an electric car in development that he says will go zero to 60 in 2 seconds and is street legal but oh, a full one watt crosses a border between safe and a bike being a danger to the community. We accept one as a norm because of windshield bias but the other is a menace. Like making weed illegal because of who was smoking it but booze and cigs is fine.

 

[m@Robertson]

@Frostybikes you have noticed what apparently every legislative analyst across the US hasn't: "<750 /= 750". The USA industry runs at 750 period. And there is no such thing as a 749w motor.

Since the entire USA ebike industry uses 750w, I'd be willing to bet either the difference will continue to be ignored, or the laws will change (I have already seen one attempt to finally do so. IIRC its in the text of the new federal ebike subsidy legislation). I have only heard of one instance of this being an issue in the city of Honolulu with respect to bicycle registration and the situation is so new it remains to be seen if they will say oops and look the other way as everyone else in these United States do.

 

[Ebiker01]

Ebike laws worldwide are just a big mess right now due to the need to please the puppet masters such as Bosch and the big industry players who actually sponsored "People for bikes" in Us who influenced the politicians to make this lame class1/2/3 law. In Nj a class 3 it's actually considered a motorized vehicle and in Ny it is not.

If you start thinking about this lame ebike laws as an impediment to getting ur nice ebike you are on the wrong path , just read a book and relax .
If they will try in the near future to charge insurance for riding a bike I will make my "for sale" postings very quickly .

 

[AHicks]

Another plan: wait for guys with the GREAT BIG motors (say 1000w+) to start getting tickets/enforcement actions, THEN worry about the 749 vs. 750 concern. Until then, the difference is pretty much a non event?

My plan is to continue enjoying 1000w+ motors, ridden in a sane manner, as long as I can.

Kinda like dealing with my wife...... you pick your battles carefully

 

[Nutella]

IMO, there aren't any 750w motors, just motors people claim are 750w. I wouldn't sweat it. This is worth a watch on how muddy the waters are.

 

[Ken M]

What this shows is how little anyone is paying attention. My bet is that 95% of ebike owners think the limit is 750W when the definition clearly states less than 750W. It's not a big deal but the attention to detail gets far worse when you consider the 20mph constraints of 170lb rider on a level surface. That clearly defines the maximum power level above 20mph because the definition states that the motor alone can not sustain a faster speed alone. This was actually a very well written definition to provide assist past 20mph as the power that would sustain a 170lb rider on a level surface.

The spandexters at People for Bikes make claims that the federal definition didn't have a "speed" limit but in reality limiting power is by far the best way to ensure a "low speed electric bicycles" will be ridden in the historical speed distribution for traditional bikes.

 

[retiredNH]

I wonder how many of these 1000 watt motors actually put out that much power? IIRC, there's no effective standards in the US regarding ebike motor power claims, so a manufacturer or dealer can claim 750 watts for a motor that actually puts out much less power on a consistent basis?

Reminds me of hifi stereo amp claims back in my youth where a manufacture would claim 500 peak watts, when that peak would last a millisecond at best, and had continuous output of 1/20 as much. At one point, the FTC clamped down on advertising "instantaneous peak power". Maybe we need a similar understanding for ebikes?

 

[AHicks]

I wonder how many of these 1000 watt motors actually put out that much power? IIRC, there's no effective standards in the US regarding ebike motor power claims, so a manufacturer or dealer can claim 750 watts for a motor that actually puts out much less power on a consistent basis?

Reminds me of hifi stereo amp claims back in my youth where a manufacture would claim 500 peak watts, when that peak would last a millisecond at best, and had continuous output of 1/20 as much. At one point, the FTC clamped down on advertising "instantaneous peak power". Maybe we need a similar understanding for ebikes?

I have 2 of them. A geared hub and a mid drive. Neither are anything "special". Everything on them is all over the counter easily available stuff. If you were to get on either though, pretty sure you would have your question answered in very short order.

Another way you could learn more is with Grin's motor simulator. If you are unfamiliar, it's widely accepted as THE go to source for questions like this. In the link below I've set the sim up with the 2 1000w+ motors I have. Check out the available torque (nm) on tap. For comparison purposes relating to your question, the 750w Bafang geared hub drives are generally rated for 80nm or so....

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

And before you go off with one of your "that's not a bicycle" comments, these bikes haven't been over 15mph unless going down hill in months. They're totally civilized and mix well with MUT traffic. I enjoy the arm stretching big power because that's been in my background nearly my entire life (introduced to muscle cars in my teens, very fast (70mph) go carts previous to that), I often ride in an area with big hills, and quite simply, because I can. -Al

 

[retiredNH]

I have 2 of them. A geared hub and a mid drive. Neither are anything "special". Everything on them is all over the counter easily available stuff. If you were to get on either though, pretty sure you would have your question answered in very short order.

Another way you could learn more is with Grin's motor simulator. If you are unfamiliar, it's widely accepted as THE go to source for questions like this. In the link below I've set the sim up with the 2 1000w+ motors I have. Check out the available torque (nm) on tap. For comparison purposes relating to your question, the 750w Bafang geared hub drives are generally rated for 80nm or so....

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

And before you go off with one of your "that's not a bicycle" comments, these bikes haven't been over 15mph unless going down hill in months. They're totally civilized and mix well with MUT traffic. I enjoy the arm stretching big power because that's been in my background nearly my entire life (introduced to muscle cars in my teens, very fast (70mph) go carts previous to that), I often ride in an area with big hills, and quite simply, because I can. -Al

Precisely my point. My 250 watt Bosch mid drive, according to Bosch, has more torque than your 750 watt motor!

And who said anything about "that's not a bicycle"??? Your thought, not mine, although I do take simulator results with a bit of caution, since they don't always compare to real world measurements.

At any rate, I asked a simple question. No need for such a snarky answer. You could have instead responded with real world data, not just a reference to an artificial model aka simulator.

 

[AHicks]

Precisely my point. My 250 watt Bosch mid drive, according to Bosch, has more torque than your 750 watt motor!

And who said anything about "that's not a bicycle"??? Your thought, not mine, although I do take simulator results with a bit of caution, since they don't always compare to real world measurements.

At any rate, I asked a simple question. No need for such a snarky answer. You could have instead responded with real world data, not just a reference to an artificial model aka simulator.

Regarding snarky, I could be wrong, but I think it was you that mentioned something regarding scooter or motorcycle not too long ago in a conversation regarding throttles, no? I figured if you brought that thought up in that conversation, then it was likely you would do it again here.

And I don't have a 750w motor. I have the 2 shown on the Grin simulator posted in the link above. I mentioned a pretty commonly accepted number for a 750w Bafang geared hub. If you'd like to compare your mid drive Bosch to a 750w Bafang mid drive, run the numbers for a Bafang BBS02.

 

[Robspace1]

Another plan: wait for guys with the GREAT BIG motors (say 1000w+) to start getting tickets/enforcement actions, THEN worry about the 749 vs. 750 concern. Until then, the difference is pretty much a non event?

My plan is to continue enjoying 1000w+ motors, ridden in a sane manner, as long as I can.

Kinda like dealing with my wife...... you pick your battles carefully

Ahicks-I agree. It's all about the way it's ridden. Here in Wa. state the new law say's 1000w. or more is no longer considered a bike, but in the same class as a motor scooter. What bs. The bikes speed is determined alot by the weight of the rider. My girlfriend's ebike is 350w. Mine is 1000. Yet, she blows right by me going up big hills. I weigh 250, she weighs 110. Not the case with motor scooters. Legally I am not allowed to ride on the bike trails here. But, who knows what I have for power right? The law makes no sense on these power restrictions. I have had many non-electric race bikes pass me on the street. Should they have a speed restriction? I just cruise along at an even 15 mph or so, nothing too fast, and I slow way down on the trails. With all the surgeries I have had, the ebike is a real life saver.

 

[Kayakguy]

I wonder how many of these 1000 watt motors actually put out that much power? IIRC, there's no effective standards in the US regarding ebike motor power claims, so a manufacturer or dealer can claim 750 watts for a motor that actually puts out much less power on a consistent basis?

Reminds me of hifi stereo amp claims back in my youth where a manufacture would claim 500 peak watts, when that peak would last a millisecond at best, and had continuous output of 1/20 as much. At one point, the FTC clamped down on advertising "instantaneous peak power". Maybe we need a similar understanding for ebikes?

Reminds me of a hi-fi outlet many years ago, demonstrating the powerful bass output of their speakers with an oscilloscope display. I assume they figured customers wouldn't notice that the wires were attached to the input connectors, and not measuring the actual output.

 

[J.R.]

For decades there were tariffs on imported motorcycles of 700 cc and up. It was an anti dumping tariff that a lot of countries do. Prior to that there were many 750's, after they were marketed as 700 cc, labeled as such, but stamped on the engine was 699 or 698 cc. I had one in 1985. Ebike manufactures would probably claim the bikes are 749 watts nominal. '750 is just marketing'

 

[retiredNH]

I suspect there's a big difference between advertized wattage and actual in use wattage or power output. For example, it's perfectly possible, and reasonable, to have a peak power draw of 750 watts but also have the motor shut down from overheating after a few seconds or minutes. And its possible that advertised and legally defined wattage are different.

 

[hankmoran]

Some of the manufacturers have found ways around the peak power measurements, so you'd have to see what the manufacturers official rating is on your bike. A 750w bike may have the exact same physical motor as a bike rated 350w, but limited by controller firmware, so the manufacturer can rate the bike as a nominal 350w bike, that just has a peak 750w 'boost'. You'll have to ask to see.

I live in Ohio and the law states ebikes must have a motor LESS than 750 watts. This is also the same as the federal law, and the same wording for ebikes when it comes to that new tax refund for ebikes.


So does that mean, an ebike with a motor rated exactly 750 watts is technically illegal? Also not eligible for that tax refund if the bill passes?

Yes it is true you cannot have anything over 750w I was stopped once but he wasn't stopping me just to check me out he was asking me questions because he liked my bike

 

[hankmoran]

Yes it is true you cannot have anything over 750w I was stopped once but he wasn't stopping me just to check me out he was asking me questions because he liked my bike

Actually anything over 750 watts is Earth supposed to have a tag

 

[Robspace1]

It all depends on the state. Here in Wa. state, the cut-off is anything over 1000 watts needs to be licensed as a scooter. We have alot of hills here and the extra watts is needed to make the hills.

 

[HillAversion]

I live in Ohio and the law states ebikes must have a motor LESS than 750 watts. This is also the same as the federal law, and the same wording for ebikes when it comes to that new tax refund for ebikes.


So does that mean, an ebike with a motor rated exactly 750 watts is technically illegal? Also not eligible for that tax refund if the bill passes?

I’m way late to this party, but I agree that the language in Ohio law is murky. I’ve seen interpretations by personal injury lawyers that refer to “750 watts or less,” but who knows?

As a practical matter, I very much doubt that police are checking motor wattage, whether you have 500 watts, 750 watts or 1,500 watts. The only time a real legal issue might arise would be if you caused a serious crash in which someone was injured or killed. In civil court proceedings there could be hell to pay. In the event of a serious injury or death, you could potentially be a test case for a murky law in criminal court. That seems pretty unlikely, but there are some pretty ambitious prosecutors out there so it’s not impossible. Even if you won, the cost of legal defense could really sting.

In any case, ride safely.