Law
Active Member
I didn’t mention hardware. Switching to canbus requires changes in controller and the user display and wiring yes.
Apples to Apples? Bosch vs. Bafang Ultra
- Thread starter John Thompson
- Start date
I didn’t mention hardware. Switching to canbus requires changes in controller and the user display and wiring yes.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
To keep the matters simple: Any e-MTB from a respected company and equipped with Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha/Giant, or Brose/Specialized mid-drive motor is capable to take you through most of trails and uphill as much as you want. Mahle/Specialized SL is a special case for lightweight e-MTBs.
McCorby
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
Ok, but you said “new bike designs have to be re-engineered”. Changing harnesses and displays is not the same as re-engineering a bike. Some minor changes may have to be made, but I highly doubt there would be any significant redesign of the bike.
btw, harnesses and displays are hardware.
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tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Which keeps me in the kitted bike world.The present is actually not a great time for purchasing one's first ebike. I get the feeling that everything is about to change and the bike I buy this year will soon be white elephant.
John Thompson
Active Member
The present is actually not a great time for purchasing one's first ebike. I get the feeling that everything is about to change and the bike I buy this year will soon be white elephant.
While I don't disagree, one could also be stuck in that limbo for a long, long time waiting for the "next big thing."
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
I am not young (turning 70 next month) and I am not small (6'1" 215 lbs.) I do ride quite a bit so I am reasonably fit.
I ride Bosch powered bikes and have never felt the need or desire for more power. If I ever want a motor scooter I will buy one of those too.
Last month I did a 48 mile ride up into the North Cascades with a 5,000 foot elevation gain, riding a Bosch powered dual battery bike. I had 42% of the total power remaining in the batteries at the end of the ride, which means I could have done the ride with greater assist than I had used.
I live near the top of a steep hill with a 16% grade for the last few blocks. I frequently use the bike to go grocery shopping and will load up and ride home with an extra 25 lbs on board with no issues.
You will be able to go further and enjoy better health benefits by exercising some restraint when it come to the power specs on your new ride. There are those, who for medical reasons, will need more power, as they can provide less. If that describes you, ignore my comments.
By the way, over the past 2 1/2 years I have racked up almost 18,000 miles and had only two minor, easily and quickly fixed problems with my Bosch equipment.
I ride Bosch powered bikes and have never felt the need or desire for more power. If I ever want a motor scooter I will buy one of those too.
Last month I did a 48 mile ride up into the North Cascades with a 5,000 foot elevation gain, riding a Bosch powered dual battery bike. I had 42% of the total power remaining in the batteries at the end of the ride, which means I could have done the ride with greater assist than I had used.
I live near the top of a steep hill with a 16% grade for the last few blocks. I frequently use the bike to go grocery shopping and will load up and ride home with an extra 25 lbs on board with no issues.
You will be able to go further and enjoy better health benefits by exercising some restraint when it come to the power specs on your new ride. There are those, who for medical reasons, will need more power, as they can provide less. If that describes you, ignore my comments.
By the way, over the past 2 1/2 years I have racked up almost 18,000 miles and had only two minor, easily and quickly fixed problems with my Bosch equipment.
reed scott
Well-Known Member
Informative post. Thanks. Just one quibble however. Just because an ebike has a throttle does not make it a 'motor scooter'. I am intrigued by the latest Bosch system. If they would incorporate a throttle I would be tempted.
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
I said nothing about a throttle and do not want this thread to devolve into yet another battle royall over throttles.. I was referring to higher power motors.
John Thompson
Active Member
Thanks for the info. I have always detected a bit of elitism when it comes to some of the users of certain gear on this site, and your "motor scooter" crack sadly reinforces that, and takes away from the pertinent part of your post, IMO.
misteracng
Member
I have a Bosch Gen4 Speed motor on my bike. The power is good and even better now with the recent software update. It has been enough for any steep grades I encountered. Adding more power would not be a bad thing but I think going beyond this amount of power by a significant amount will cause more issues. Standard chain/cassette/derailleur systems are at the limit with current power in terms of reliability. Bafang ultra power I think will necessitate belt drive and heavy duty drivetrain components to handle the power reliably. Just a practical issue, continuing to add power will mean heavier bikes due to motor/battery/drivetrain weight, all of which will rise. We are at 50-60lb bikes now with bosch type power and batteries, which I think nears the limit of what a bicycle should weigh. Transporting, carrying, lifting, 60 lbs is near the limit of what a person would expect when they see a bicycle. So maybe they will be able to add more power while maintaining or reducing weight, then it would be worth it.
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
I intended no slight or provocation in referencing motor scooters.
There is no bright line separating e-bicycles from motor scooters but rather somewhat of a broad continuum between the two. Having pedals alone does not render a scooter a bicycle; just as having an electric motor alone does not make a bicycle a scooter. Obviously there are those who would insist that any motor assist at all makes a vehicle something other than a bicycle. When I see otherwise able bodied millennial dudes zooming along at 30mph without even pretending to pedal, it is not a stretch to consider what they are traveling on to be an electric motor scooter, pedals not withstanding.
I also recognize that some peoples physical limitations make a throttle and great power necessary for them to travel on a two wheeled vehicle at all. There is nothing to be ashamed about or having to apologize about that.
It is not a matter of being part of an elite but rather calling something what it functionally is. Honest, intelligent people can and will differ as there are no clear, universally accepted definitions. We all bring our own biases and experiences to the discussion.
John Thompson
Active Member
" When I see otherwise able bodied millennial dudes zooming along at 30mph without even pretending to pedal, it is not a stretch to consider what they are traveling on to be an electric motor scooter, pedals not withstanding. "
Agreed. For myself, pushing a combined 290 pounds (me, bike, panniers) up 12-15 miles of 15-20% grade fire road without ever touching the throttle, that torque and power is nice to have in my back pocket.
Agreed. For myself, pushing a combined 290 pounds (me, bike, panniers) up 12-15 miles of 15-20% grade fire road without ever touching the throttle, that torque and power is nice to have in my back pocket.
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
I think your rather uncommon set of conditions, both you and the kind of conditions and riding you do, calls for an uncommon power configuration in an ebike.
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Based on several years of BBSxx series support those uncommon conditions and kinds of riding are really very common.
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
This is exactly my thought.
If Bosch were to make a 500W motor based on the Gen 4 platform, that would be fantastic! Even then, it would require heavy duty components.
But once we start hitting 750W+ as in the case of Ultra, the dynamics changes. It necessitates super heavy duty chain or belt, much tougher cassette and free-hub body, chainring etc.
Most bike parts are not made to withstand 750W of continuous power!
I have seen lots of riders with Bosch motor cross 15,000 miles and they do go through lots of chains/cassettes.
I can't imagine how many chains and cassettes would be needed in the case of Bafang ultra with 15,000 miles on it. I wonder if there are any riders with more than 15,000+ miles on their bike with the ultra motor. That would provide a good point of reference.
Bafang makes hundreds of thousands of hub motors, perhaps one of the highest volume hub motor makers in Asia but their mid-drive motor production volume is very small compared to their main bread and butter hub motors.
For those who are interested, they can see mid-drive assembly line in this video. Looks like a small-scale operation and this was in 2019 and I am sure they have expanded it to include the M500 and M600 motors.
From what I can tell, they are limited by their access to high quality sensors and electronics, perhaps mostly because of patent licensing fees!
if Bafang can offer higher quality mid-drive motor with higher reliability and quality control, they may succeed in competing against Bosch and Shimano drives and that will be a good thing. But, right now, it is not even a comparison in terms of quality or volume. The volumes of Bosch motor is almost 100x compared to Bafang mid-drive systems.
onlineaddy
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego, CA, USA
@Ravi Kempaiah just curious: what distance did you cover on the Bafang mid-drive equipped Watt Wagons bike, and what component failure did you experience during your world-record-breaking run?
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
fart bike is the problem. a bike that will such a lot of juice just to move. most fat bikes are hub driven and not as powerful as much bosch bikes.
misteracng
Member
A fat bike is really a different case. Bicycles before motors were always designed to reduce weight and increase efficiency as much as possible because it was human powered only. Adding motors allows more flexibility in design. More features such as larger tires that add weight. The fat tire bikes are an extreme example of this. They give you all terrain ability and traction to the extreme, but at the cost of significant friction and efficiency loss. MTB bikes that need high traction/less efficient tires, usually don't go above 2.8 inches. So fat tire bikes are kinda outside the extreme normal case for a road or mtb bicycle. This makes the base for a very high power bafang motor to overcome such significant drag vs a Bosch motor, which is probably not designed for that purpose. I/m not saying bosch is perfect, but it seems they and others like shimano/brose are designing motors to support and enhance bicycles. A bafang is very nice and powerful, but it seems more geared towards a different purpose.
TForan
Well-Known Member
Much more stability with 3.5 inch tires in town with bad streets . Have you ridden an Ultra powered fat bike ? I'm guessing no. I never saw the sense in riding euro law limited bikes.
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