Another twist to throttle vs PAS ebikes....Comments wanted...

[Cowlitz]

It's odd to me that so many of the posts from the PAS-only bunch seem to suppose that if you had a throttle on your bike, you would have to use it instead of using PAS.

Is there a widely popular ebike with a throttle that doesn't also have PAS? It seems like a niche market to me.

We've had some posts from people who only use the throttle, mainly for reasons of physical impairment. Other than that, it seems like those of us who have throttles rely heavily on PAS, using the throttle in certain well-defined instances.

So why all the comments like "if I wanted a motorcycle I'd get one," as though the two are mutually exclusive? This puzzles me.

I don't see people who like throttles arguing against PAS, so it's not just the usual predictable human orneriness.

Well said. People who have ebikes are confused about the use of throttles and that explains why regulators, who are in the dark about our bikes tend to use a heavy hand when making rules.

Our society seems to be turning into an all or nothing crowd, but I won't go into that.

 

[Ken M]

It appears your post has been misinterpreted.

If I were a commuter and had a choice between throttle only or PAS only, I would choose PAS. That assumes the PAS has both cadence and torque sensors. PAS only violates fewer local laws and you are less likely to be cited in many cities.

That being said, in reality commuters need both. A throttle provides the means of quickly getting out of an unsafe situation. Yes, PAS will give you the same level of assist but it may require changing settings and gears. This takes valuable time whereas the throttle is instant.

The federal ebike definition makes a throttle only and PAS equal in status and so long as compliant both are considered equivalent to a traditional bike. States are permitted to regulate usage but in reality they are not allowed to establish a definition for a legal ebike tighter that what is defined in the federal regulation.

I think very few ebike riders have actually taken the time actually read and understand what the federal regulation states. Given that regulations are driving so much of ebike design I think we all should know and understand the regulations. That way if you get pulled over by a police officer that thinks you are on an illegal bike you can explain why it is compliant (assuming it is).

 

[JRA]

I’d have one of each! Oh wait I already do for reasons that make sense to me and my riding style , terrain and efficiency. Although my PAS MTB also has a throttle but Bruce nailed that concept above.

 

[DDBB]

Throttles are cheating!

 

[jim6b]

Throttles are cheating!

Nawh.

Spandex is cheating.

Wool rules.

 

[Handlebars]

Just so everyone understands I consider a throttle just another form of Pedal Assist System (PAS) but one without sensors and programming to determine the assist level provided by the drive system. Instead the rider is in total control of the assist level and it's ultra simple (probably why gas pedals on cars and throttles on motorcycles have stood the test of time).

It seems many ebike riders think that a throttle ebike is for those that are not planning to actually pedal but a throttle does not prohibit as active ride as you get on any PAS ebike.

I just think that simple tends to be MORE reliable. A throttle does not require cadence/torque/speed/gear sensors that are common on PAS ebikes and they feed information to a program that someone wrote that "estimates" what assist level the rider wants. I have both a Bosch and Yamaha powered Haibike models that I like but there are times when the assist is not what I want. That is what prompted me to start thinking that given the choice of one or the other I would choose a throttle ebike (it's not about wanting to ride a pedal-less ebike it's about getting the exact assist I want at all times and knowing it's going to be a more reliable than a complex PAS system and a lot lower cost to fix should something go wrong). I think the is a lot more to this debate than most people want to consider so they go with the opinion they have been manipulated by marketing to have.

I'm still shopping for my first ebike parts. It's on a tight budget. My thinking is that I need a throttle so that I can help the motor by pedalling, rather than the motor helping me pedal. I don't want to have to switch through the gears at takeoff from traffic lights, I want to use the pedals harder in medium gear rather than to spin fast through gears to get the bike up to speed quickly. Along with that, though, I want cruise control - so my aim is for the most basic of stuff that allows what I want. So what you're pointing to, Ken, is what I'm heading toward.

On another note; I think they should make the displays easily removable for when you lock up the bike.

 

[Ken M]

I have believed in the value of low-powered (i.e. below 30MPH) two-wheeled throttle transportation since I bought my first Puch moped in 1976.

View attachment 34444

The motor was a two-stroke gas engine, and the pedals were pretty much useless. So naturally I used it in throttle mode exclusively. Since then I've owned a Yamaha Jazz, a Kymco People 125cc, and presently a Kymco Downtown 300i - all ICE scooters. I have since discovered ebikes, and now own a Surface 604 Rook and a Rad Mini. I'm also currently researching electric mopeds. In short, I'm all about the throttle, and all about two-wheeled transportation.

I guess I've always viewed two-wheeled transportation as just that - transportation. I never rode a bike for exercise or thrills. I always wanted to get somewhere with it. I think the throttle represents the best-use case for any kind of two-wheeled vehicle as transportation, and I would encourage anyone to view a throttle-equipped ebike primarily as transportation. I chose ebikes with throttles because I like the fact that hub motors drive the wheel, not the chain, and so continue to operate if the chain breaks.

I think the real significance of the ebike is that it provides both reliable transportation in addition to providing exercise, which I think is a breakthrough in human-scale transportation. So my take is this: if what you want is thrills, chills, and excitement on the trails and off-roads of the USA, go for a mid-drive motor. If you want reliable, dependable, non-polluting and fuel-efficient transportation, go with a throttle. And tell the spandexters that you are NOT out getting exercise; you're just out getting from Point A to Point B with the most humanly efficient form of transportation available. Take the "fitness" argument right out of the equation altogether. They don't have to know you're getting some (or as much) exercise as you want or need.

I really enjoyed your response. Your mindset on human mobility and ebikes with a throttle mimics mine almost exactly. PAS is fantastic on ebikes with mid-drives for off-road riding but for urban mobility / commuting the infinitely variable assist provided by a throttle (especially on rear hub drive ebikes) is far superior, simpler, and time tested (any motorcycle or car essentially has a continuously varibble assist but most ebikers don't think of a throttle like that.

 

[Ken M]

I agree about the Bosch Motor. I have the Performance Line speed motor. Forget and leave it in sport or turbo after climbing and you get what I can only describe as a good sized shove. Like you were a little kid and mom or dad pushed the back of your bike to get you started.

With a throttle you only have one mode because the infinitely variable assist levels provided.

I want everyone to understand that I 100% believe in the merits of getting some exercise on an ebike but for some reason many riders seem to think that if an ebike only has a throttle to control assist that no will pedal. Maybe they just understand that a throttle is just a much finer regulation of the assist than any programmed PAS will ever be. I don't need a bunch of sensors and lines of program code to provide the assist it thinks I want/need....I just want to be in full control of the assist level at all times.

This debate probably boils down to those that enjoy the real driving experience of manual transmission cars vs the mindless driving of an automatic transmission. I understand that automatic transmissions are winning all the market share because people are essentially lazy but I'm hoping that when riding a bike people can see the merits of being in full control of the assist level via a thottle. Don't let the marketing people tell you that they PAS knows better than you do....we'll if you watch reality shows it probably does.

 

[Ken M]

Only two hard reasons for a throttle on two wheels; you have a disability or you want a scooter. The rest is just personal preference and a throttle has nothing to do with transportation/urban mobility.

Let me ask you a couple questions since you seem to favor PAS...Which of the two assist control systems provides an assured way to get the assist level you want 100% of the time? Which of the two systems is the simplest method to provide the motor assist (one based on a bunch of sensors and programming or one with just a variable direct feedback to the controller)?

Forget about all the marketing buzz you have been told and answer those two questions and maybe then a throttle only ebike will make more sense.

I realize that some people would buy a McClaren, Ferrari, or Bugatti with and automatic transmission but those that want to get the most from those cars will opt for manual transmission so they are in control and not some algorithm.

 

[6zfshdb]

Perhaps the industry should drop the term "throttle" and replace it with "variable assist". A throttle on a two wheeled vehicle evokes mental images of motorcycles doing wheel stands with drag strip acceleration. Unless you're running a 2000 watt motor, this just isn't the case with e-bikes.

 

[Ken M]

Perhaps the industry should drop the term "throttle" and replace it with "variable assist". A throttle on a two wheeled vehicle evokes mental images of motorcycles doing wheel stands with drag strip acceleration. Unless you're running a 2000 watt motor, this just isn't the case with e-bikes.

That's actually the reason I use the term "variable assist" instead of throttle because it's certainly clear that many ebikers equate a throttle as not pedaling. A throttle is also associated with the high powered electric motorcycles that really need to have DOT level regulations even if they have functional pedals like a bike. I know there are bikers (mostly very good road bikers that will hit speeds well above 35mph on a bike but for the vast majority of us I'm thinking 35mph is probably a top speed we'll ever ride a bike even on a fairly steep incline so that is about the speed a bike begins to become something more.

The world record for a 1 hour ride was an amazing over 30mph average without assist. Think about that for a second when there are those saying that 20mph should be the max assist speed of an ebike before it becomes a moped/motocycle-class product. There's going to be a lot more debate in the coming years as to what an ebike should be and when it's no longer a bike-class product. All that said, I still like the simplicity of a "variable assist" device like a throttle on an ebike vs PAS.

 

[indianajo]

Only two hard reasons for a throttle on two wheels; you have a disability or you want a scooter. The rest is just personal preference and a throttle has nothing to do with transportation/urban mobility.

That statement is blatently false. The wind is going further out of control by the day, and my 24 to 30 mile commute gets no shorter if the wind is 25 mph in my face. The shorter flatter routes put me on an 8" wide strip outside a 55 mph (70 mph actual) lane. The route I'm taking now has 46 hills on the back half.
I like exercise, about 3.5 hours worth. I hate swimming & my Army veteran knees won't allow running walking, which leads to biking. 5.7 hours of pulse 130 into an unfavorable wind is waay to much exercise. No wind, I pedal. Unfavorable wind I could use the throttle. Road conditions on my route make the PAS I bought totally unsuitable. 11 mph (PAS 0) was too fast a lot of places, and it takes too much fiddling around and eyes down to turn it off or on.
Furthermore, my disability is variable. I can pedal 40 miles @ 8 mph 99% of the time. Sometimes I can't walk without a cane. I can't schedule the bad days, they just happen. Even if I pay $30 a month for a cell phone that actually works at my summer camp, there is about 20% chance a taxi is going to find it to pick me up. Plus it is 500 yards from the camp out to the road: no taxi is going to drive around looking for me. A bike with throttle will get me to town without pedaling. I am NOT going to use the motor every trip. Aerobic exercise 4x a week provides the endomorphine that allows me to walk at all.
Scooters are too short to be visible, could easily run over by cars, can't be pedaled for exercise, and are huge theft targets in this county. They also require a license plate. I've never seen a silent one here, mostly they run about 100 db or more and stink. My retarded neighbor has been hit by cars twice on a bicycle, and went over the hood with light injuries both times.

 

[Dewey]

Is there a widely popular ebike with a throttle that doesn't also have PAS?

The Pedego Comfort Cruiser, most Prodecotech models, and Hill Topper ebikes are mostly throttle only. Seems popular for DIY hub motors too, Hill Topper, Golden Motor, and Grin Tech hub kits are available with throttle only.

 

[AHicks]

My vote, coming from somebody that starts peddling when they leave, and stops only when necessary. There is no way on earth i could possibly modulate the throttle well enough at the speeds I travel most often to match what me/my bike can do using PAS.

This call (PAS vs. Throttle) is strictly a personal call. There's no right or wrong here! If you don't like PAS, don't run it, but don't condemn it as useless. Same with a throttle.

If you're building a project on the cheap, do whatever you like. There's really no justification required. The other can be added at any time. -Al

 

[Ken M]

My vote, coming from somebody that starts peddling when they leave, and stops only when necessary. There is no way on earth i could possibly modulate the throttle well enough at the speeds I travel most often to match what me/my bike can do using PAS.

This call (PAS vs. Throttle) is strictly a personal call. There's no right or wrong here! If you don't like PAS, don't run it, but don't condemn it as useless. Same with a throttle.

If you're building a project on the cheap, do whatever you like. There's really no justification required. The other can be added at any time. -Al

I'm certainly not wanting to claim PAS ebikes are bad, not my intention. I am claiming that they can not match the inherent granularity of control of a throttle.

If I'm say a 250lb guy with very bad knees or even legs with uneven capability it's very likely that I will not get the assist I desire/need from a PAS system. Most of top mid drive ebikes have torque sensor priority for the assist level that will be provided so inherently the strongest riders get the highest assist. It's not like these system give each rider parameter control of the programs (it's all preset by some guy coding an algorithm).

You are totally wrong about how finite a throttle is/can be. They can be implemented with near analog control of assist level just like the cars you most likely own/drive. How many cars do you think Tesla would sell if their throttle had poor modulation? My guess is your sensation when driving a car is that the gas pedal is perfect linear power/assist control.

I think you read too much mid-drive marketing information. Again I'm not saying they are bad.....just not as good as a throttle and I came to this conclusion only after riding Yamaha and Bosch Haibikes and then also a simple throttle only kit ebike. The $250 kit was superior based on my experience with them but it was mainly because I liked having total control of the assist and not giving that control to a programmers idea of what assist I want based on feedback from sensors (each of which adds another reduction of inherent reliability - that is just a statistical fact and a fair objective point to mention).

 

[AHicks]

Ken, you're missing my point. You like throttles, and I like PAS. Is one of us wrong? I don't think so.....

No more wrong than one of us selecting a mid drive and the other a hub drive. They're both popular options with big followings.

 

[Ken M]

Ken, you're missing my point. You like throttles, and I like PAS. Is one of us wrong? I don't think so.....

No more wrong than one of us selecting a mid drive and the other a hub drive. They're both popular options with big followings.

Agreed neither is bad/wrong but I do think one is superior to the other just assessing the merits and weaknesses.

I do tend to think simple (when it works) is always better than complexity.

I think that European laws we behind the development of PAS....if throttles would have been allowed there would PAS have really been developed. Someone on the inside may know the answer to this question. For the most part a PAS ebike looks at the riders force imput into the pedals and varies the assist power accordingly. That to me seems inherently flawed because each of us has different capability and come in different sizes. For mtn bikers in good shape they are really good and I understand why they love'em.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

My RadRover has PAS and a throttle. I use the throttle very rarely; sometimes on a hill and probably when taking off from a traffic light in traffic. (I'm using the pedals and PAS at the same time; it's nice sometimes to have a little extra kick.) On an hour ride, I probably use throttle for less than a minute. Anyway, I ride for miles everyday and have no trouble with PAS and no throttle, going exactly as fast as I want to. Maybe it takes a little practice, I don't know, it seems to come naturally to me. My point is, I don't think, for me anyway, that the throttle provides any extra granularity or desired control.

I agree with those who say do what works for you. I don't know why it should matter to me whether you propel your bike with your muscles, PAS, throttle, mind-control, or whatever.

TT

 

[Ken M]

My RadRover has PAS and a throttle. I use the throttle very rarely; sometimes on a hill and probably when taking off from a traffic light in traffic. (I'm using the pedals and PAS at the same time; it's nice sometimes to have a little extra kick.) On an hour ride, I probably use throttle for less than a minute. Anyway, I ride for miles everyday and have no trouble with PAS and no throttle, going exactly as fast as I want to. Maybe it takes a little practice, I don't know, it seems to come naturally to me. My point is, I don't think, for me anyway, that the throttle provides any extra granularity or desired control.

I agree with those who say do what works for you. I don't know why it should matter to me whether you propel your bike with your muscles, PAS, throttle, mind-control, or whatever.

TT

Ok so here's my question to you. If the bike you purchased was on the show room floor as a throttle only configuration of a PAS configuration and the PAS was $200 higher priced. Which one would you choose? Actually a better way to put this is how much more would you be willing to pay for a PAS over a basic throttle only model (and having both was not an option on the ebike)?

In reality my intend of this entire thread was to gage if PAS was as much or more "value adding" as it was "cost adding" vs the merits of the classic time tested throttle control. Keep in mind some throttle have what is termed a cruise control mode which allows you to retain a consistent assist while not holding the throttle. So you can let go of the bars and just cruise along like you would on a PAS. Grin Technologies has this feature on their controllers but my guess is most people are not even aware of it.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I'd choose PAS over a throttle-only bike in a heartbeat. That's me. If I didn't want to pedal I guess I'd get a motorcycle or Vespa or something. Again, though, if you'd rather have a throttle or you have something against PAS, it doesn't bother me at all. More power to you.

TT