Another twist to throttle vs PAS ebikes....Comments wanted...

[Ken M]

My first ebike was throttle only. I still have it actually. When I got a PAS bike it worked like any bike. When you want to go faster you pedal faster, when you want to go slower you pedal slower. It's intuitive. One does it without thinking. "It's just like riding a bike"

I'm also a motorcycle rider, I'm not against any of it. A throttle on an ebike is manual pedal assist, PAS is automatic pedal assist. I'll never go back.

A buddy of mine, a fellow ebiker, has a throttle only bike. For the longest time he didn't understand what was so great about PAS. I tried to explain the difference it makes in everyday riding. With throttle it requires constant adjustment to match your cadence for a desired speed. The one hand remains glued to the handlebar. Don't move it, don't relax or your speed will change. My buddy now has a PAS bike and loves it! When he uses the throttle bike, he finds it annoying, a distraction to the cycling experience. That's particularly true for long rides.

On my current motorcycle I have electronic cruise control. Speed automatically adjusts. Best thing ever added to a motorcycle. Cause you can't have PAS

I had stick shifts in cars and pickup trucks for decades. That got really old when I had to do a lot of stop and go driving. Constant work to maintain the desired speed. I now drive an automatic pickup. Same with throttle versus PAS. I'm enjoying the ride!

Would you buy a Ferrari with an automatic transmission (not sure if they even make such a thing because sports car drivers want gear control ... not some program guessing what gear they want to be in).

Also there are some new ebike Throttle controllers implementing both assist level and speed-hold cruise controls (they just don't have torque, cadence, speed, gear, and now the new Yamaha motors have angle detection inputs to a program to determine assist levels).

 

[J.R.]

Would you buy a Ferrari with an automatic transmission (not sure if they even make such a thing because sports car drivers want gear control ... not some program guessing what gear they want to be in).

I wouldn't buy a Ferrari at any price.

Would you buy a bicycle with a throttle? That's a rhetorical question. You would, I wouldn't.

Trying to equate an ebike with a sports car is a tortured analogy. I have a motorcycle for motorcycling, a pickup for hauling and a bicycle for bicycling (e and non e).

You started the thread painting ebikers and throttle users as victims.

Most ebikers have experienced some negativity or arrogance from spandexter road bikers and hard core mtn bikers that view ebikes as cheating. But I’m starting to sense the same kind of mindset from the ebike community towards throttle ebikes.

I don't see anyone victimized. I responded to another member with a personal anecdote and you seem to think I'm challenging your theory. Ride what you want, it's really okay. I won't try to convince you otherwise.

 

[Ken M]

I wouldn't by a Ferrari at any price.

Would you buy a bicycle with a throttle? That's a rhetorical question. You would, I wouldn't.

Trying to equate an ebike with a sports car is a tortured analogy. I have a motorcycle for motorcycling, a pickup for hauling, a boat for boating and a bicycle for bicycling (e and non e).

You started the thread painting ebikers and throttle users as a victims.


I don't see anyone victimized. I responded to another member with a personal anecdote and you seem to think I'm challenging your theory. Ride what you want, it's really okay. I won't try to convince you otherwise.

Actually I didn't deny the merit(s) of either assist method. I was just wondering if there was only a choice of one or the other which would be preferred.

Part of my reasoning was that riders tend to view throttle ebikes as a non-pedal product like a moped or motorcycle which I thought should be dispelled. The newer throttle systems with both assist hold and speed hold cruise controls may create some renewed interest in the more variable assist control a throttle provides.

Obviously marketing of the PAS products is superior so anyone implying a throttle only is just as good get run over by the big $s promoting PAS.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Yawn!

TT

 

[Toomanycats]

With a throttle you only have one mode because the infinitely variable assist levels provided.

I want everyone to understand that I 100% believe in the merits of getting some exercise on an ebike but for some reason many riders seem to think that if an ebike only has a throttle to control assist that no will pedal. Maybe they just understand that a throttle is just a much finer regulation of the assist than any programmed PAS will ever be. I don't need a bunch of sensors and lines of program code to provide the assist it thinks I want/need....I just want to be in full control of the assist level at all times.

This debate probably boils down to those that enjoy the real driving experience of manual transmission cars vs the mindless driving of an automatic transmission. I understand that automatic transmissions are winning all the market share because people are essentially lazy but I'm hoping that when riding a bike people can see the merits of being in full control of the assist level via a thottle. Don't let the marketing people tell you that they PAS knows better than you do....we'll if you watch reality shows it probably does.

I have no objection to throttles. I personally prefer pas because I do a lot of hill climbing. PAS mid motor bikes tend not to have throttles. My fiancé says if he ever gets an ebike, he wants a throttle, and so that’s what we’ll do. His knees aren’t in good shape and pushing off from a start isn’t easy for him.

 

[AHicks]

Ken,
"Rigged" couple of pictures is a bit of an understatement don't you think? There are 3 tiny strands of wire, usually encased in shrink wrap, that run from the PAS sensor to the controller. Nothing more, nothing less. To tell anyone any differently is purposely misleading.

 

[Ken M]

Ken,
"Rigged" couple of pictures is a bit of an understatement don't you think? There are 3 tiny strands of wire, usually encased in shrink wrap, that run from the PAS sensor to the controller. Nothing more, nothing less. To tell anyone any differently is purposely misleading.

Most PAS controllers have wires for a torque sensor, wires for a cadence sensor (if there is a cadence sensor almost by necessity there must be ebrake cut-wire to each brake lever), and wires for a speed sensor. This is on top of wires for the display, temperature sensor, hall sensors, battery, and phase wires.

A throttle only sensor in many cases only has the 3 phase wires going to motor (they run sensorless to keep them simple), 2 wires going to the battery, and a wire set going to the throttle. They can be significantly simpler. Just go onto ebay and search for ebike kits and you'll see how complicated most are. There is a throttle only kit listed by ProdecoTech that says it was for the outlaw and if you find it you will see just how simple a throttle only kit can be.

 

[Handlebars]

I agree with Harry. With your hesitant attitude toward it, I think it's going to need to be something you need to see/feel/experience yourself. Then make up your own mind to use it or not. Even if just used infrequently, the time/trouble/expense to install it not that big a loss, even if you hate it (which I find doubtful)!

I also doubt that I'd hate it. I don't see why I would ever want it though. But people seem delighted with the feeling. I don't see any reason to even care about the intuitiveness of it. Not a tiny bit.

 

[Handlebars]

A throttle on an ebike is manual pedal assist

I don't see how that is a fitting description, because you can use the throttle so that you don't have to pedal at all. I'd change that idea to be about the motor and pedalling. I want pedals to be a motor assist, not a motor to be a pedal assist.

PAS is automatic pedal assist. I'll never go back.

A buddy of mine, a fellow ebiker, has a throttle only bike. For the longest time he didn't understand what was so great about PAS. I tried to explain the difference it makes in everyday riding. With throttle it requires constant adjustment to match your cadence for a desired speed.

Not if you're not pedalling. Say you pedal to help the motor get off the scratch and then want to cruise without pedalling or just pedal a bit. Change to a gear that gives some help to the motor. It can't then be about throttle assist - pedalling is about motor assist. No?

The one hand remains glued to the handlebar. Don't move it, don't relax or your speed will change.

Yes, it's not a good feeling. I can foresee arthritis problems from that and so I would want cruise control and some cushy grips.

On my current motorcycle I have electronic cruise control. Speed automatically adjusts. Best thing ever added to a motorcycle. Cause you can't have PAS

I could certainly agree with part A being great, but for part B, would anyone want to pedal a motorcycle?

I had stick shifts in cars and pickup trucks for decades. That got really old when I had to do a lot of stop and go driving. Constant work to maintain the desired speed.

This is comparable to riding a bike...constant gear shifting to maintain forward motion. With throttle and cruise control, you have yourself an automatic vehicle with a gas pedal in your hand.
No?

Maybe it's different with mid motor rather than hub drive?

 

[Handlebars]

Most PAS controllers have wires for a torque sensor, wires for a cadence sensor (if there is a cadence sensor almost by necessity there must be ebrake cut-wire to each brake lever), and wires for a speed sensor. This is on top of wires for the display, temperature sensor, hall sensors, battery, and phase wires.

A throttle only sensor in many cases only has the 3 phase wires going to motor (they run sensorless to keep them simple), 2 wires going to the battery, and a wire set going to the throttle. They can be significantly simpler. Just go onto ebay and search for ebike kits and you'll see how complicated most are. There is a throttle only kit listed by ProdecoTech that says it was for the outlaw and if you find it you will see just how simple a throttle only kit can be.

Here it is https://prodecotech.com/electric-bikes/48v-1200w-diy-ebike-kit/
...doesn't it need longer wire?

 

[J.R.]

I don't see how that is a fitting description, because you can use the throttle so that you don't have to pedal at all. I'd change that idea to be about the motor and pedalling. I want pedals to be a motor assist, not a motor to be a pedal assist.

Not if you're not pedalling. Say you pedal to help the motor get off the scratch and then want to cruise without pedalling or just pedal a bit. Change to a gear that gives some help to the motor. It can't then be about throttle assist - pedalling is about motor assist. No?


Yes, it's not a good feeling. I can foresee arthritis problems from that and so I would want cruise control and some cushy grips.

I could certainly agree with part A being great, but for part B, would anyone want to pedal a motorcycle?

This is comparable to riding a bike...constant gear shifting to maintain forward motion. With throttle and cruise control, you have yourself an automatic vehicle with a gas pedal in your hand.
No?

Maybe it's different with mid motor rather than hub drive?

I find dissecting sentences like this very disrespectful of someone trying to help. You remove all context when you do this. It was a complete thought, not bullet points. I'm out.

 

[Camac]

Most PAS controllers have wires for a torque sensor, wires for a cadence sensor (if there is a cadence sensor almost by necessity there must be ebrake cut-wire to each brake lever), and wires for a speed sensor. This is on top of wires for the display, temperature sensor, hall sensors, battery, and phase wires

So what's the problem with all these wires ? It's not as though you have to plug them in every time you use the bike and I'm sure the extra weight wouldn't cause a problem

 

[Handlebars]

So what's the problem with all these wires ? It's not as though you have to plug them in every time you use the bike and I'm sure the extra weight wouldn't cause a problem

For me, those extra things give the bike away as being an ebike. It makes it a target. Gives things for vandals to destroy, as they most certainly do all the time.

 

[Handlebars]

I find dissecting sentences like this very disrespectful of someone trying to help. You remove all context when you do this. It was a complete thought, not bullet points. I'm out.

Sorry you feel like that. I prefer someone to do as I did, to make each point clearly, rather than doing Gestalt.

 

[AHicks]

Most PAS controllers have wires for a torque sensor, wires for a cadence sensor (if there is a cadence sensor almost by necessity there must be ebrake cut-wire to each brake lever), and wires for a speed sensor. This is on top of wires for the display, temperature sensor, hall sensors, battery, and phase wires.

A throttle only sensor in many cases only has the 3 phase wires going to motor (they run sensorless to keep them simple), 2 wires going to the battery, and a wire set going to the throttle. They can be significantly simpler. Just go onto ebay and search for ebike kits and you'll see how complicated most are. There is a throttle only kit listed by ProdecoTech that says it was for the outlaw and if you find it you will see just how simple a throttle only kit can be.

Our OP mentioned a KT based controller. That's one I'm pretty familiar with when used with an LCD3 display, and the info I've shared is based on that experience.

BUT, he has now selected an entirely different route. So I'm simply going to say there are HUNDREDS of different type controllers available. To say some are different than others would be an understatement? I'm sure if you look hard enough there are going to be some that could confound a wizard. I don't think it's fair to infer they're all like that. A decent KT controller, and most others I've seen, include a wiring diagram that most should be able to follow pretty easily. As they are sold on the open market to anyone that wants one, I would think it would be in the controller manf's best interest to keep thing as simple as possible, as the consequences for any but that are going to lead to a pretty expensive return rate, no?

 

[AHicks]

Handlebars, you seem to have made up your mind. I'm happy for you, and done adding to the topic. Best of luck.

 

[Handlebars]

Thanks for your help from knowledge, AHicks. I think I at least do know what I want now, after several re-thinks of my situation and the hazzards of the city for ebike longevity.

 

[Handlebars]

I find dissecting sentences like this very disrespectful of someone trying to help. You remove all context when you do this. It was a complete thought, not bullet points. I'm out.

Also, J.R., my apologies to you for my way of discussion.

 

[MarkF]

My bike has both PAS and throttle and I would never want a throttle only bike. I like the assist to do it's job and I will add throttle as needed when going up a grade or just to give my knees a break. I think if I only had a throttle I would use it more as a throttle only and not as a help like PAS does. To easy to get lazy with a throttle only and I don't want to be fiddling with moving my throttle all the time to adjust the assist as needed. I use PAS 95% of the time but would not want a bike that doesn't have a throttle.

 

[Ken M]

Here it is https://prodecotech.com/electric-bikes/48v-1200w-diy-ebike-kit/
...doesn't it need longer wire?

The wires to the battery are usually short and they have a extension for the phase wires. Everyone should look at the simplicity of that kit compared to the birds nest of wires you have with the full function PAS kits. It's just elegant.

Again, I'm not trying to downplay PAS drive units but they are more complex and they do have issues and for some riders they may not be adequate at all.