Another twist to throttle vs PAS ebikes....Comments wanted...

[Ken M]

Ken, it wasn't the amount of power I was referring to, it was the type of power (hub vs. mid drive). You were commenting regarding the complexity of the PAS system. Not knowing you were talking about a mid drive, my comment to you (and I think others may have been thinking along the same lines) was regarding the extreme simplicity of a PAS system - as used on a hub drive system. From a practical standpoint, they're no more complex than a headlight. Mid-drive is obviously a whole different story.

And after using a PAS system since I started riding e-bikes, the throttle seems a very strange sort of compromise when compared to a functional PAS system, especially one tuned to your riding style (using a tuneable controller, like Bolton's for instance). A throttle does though, have some features I would miss if it were not installed. My bikes will have both, no doubt. -Al

Actually I didn't wan to differentiate between hub and mid-drives but most mid-drives have integrated torque and cadence sensors so we are unlikely to see any throttle only assist mid-drive ebikes. I believe that throttle only does make a lot of sense on geared or DD hub drive ebikes because in reality a throttle is just an infinitely variable assist control and some are programmed that if not moved they act as cruise control but that typically requires e-brake cutoff and I don't even want the added complexity of e-brakes.

I guess maybe the question should be. If all factors are considered (complexity, reliability, performance, etc.) which assist system would you pick if you could only have one on the ebike. A throttle only or PAS only?

Again....I'm mainly interested in ebikes as a tool for real transportation so that should be considered when answer the question.

 

[Ken M]

I got my e-bike for daily commuting thinking that I would use the throttle. I have after a short while realized that I prefer the PAS, even though it only has a cadence sensor.

Cadence only assist systems are interesting because if you like a fast cadence you can just stay in a lower gear and pedal fast to get more motor assistance. I think they become a problem when the climbing grade slows the cadence and you want more assistance but are not going to get it on a cadence only ebike.

 

[AZOldTech]

Everyone should read the US federal ebike regulation/definition

Would you mind posting a link to the "US federal ebike regulation/definition"? Thanks.

 

[JRA]

A comprehensive version here plus by state but some are not changed to the Class laws that have enacted them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

 

[AZOldTech]

A comprehensive version here plus by state but some are not changed to the Class laws that have enacted them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

Thanks for the link. And just as I thought the 50 US states are all over the place with ebike regulations. 500W, <750W, 1000W, 1500W... geez...

 

[champignon]

All of this concentration on equipment and how it is configured totally misses the point. The only thing that really matters is the behavior of the trail user. The equipment that they use is irrelevant. No one wants to share a bike path with dirt bikes, but when you get down into the weeds and start debating things like Class 1, 2, and 3 bicycles, the discussion becomes one among the various interest groups of people using bike paths and city streets. I knew a guy who was the head of a non-profit organization supporting a national recreation area near where I live. His famous quote that I remember was that every group of trail users has issues with every other group of trail users. In this context he was talking about such groups as hikers, horsemen, mountain bikers, etc. but the idea is applicable here.

Instead of focusing on minutiae such as what sort of equipment is on a particular bike, why not focus on how people behave? Is the throttle on a typical e-bike more offensive than the family group of 5 people who walk together blocking both sides of a bike path? Which is worse, some old geezer on an e-trike going 20 mph under throttle, or the club ride of acoustic bicycles going 35 or 40 mph and blocking virtually the entire path as they draft each other?

Unfortunately, it is easier to focus on simple things that can be documented, which explains why in an era of nanny-state enforcement you might get a speeding ticket on your e-bike while still riding very responsibly, but someone or some people blocking a path will suffer no consequence. Is this the sort of place you want to live in?

 

[TaraBara]

I say why worry about what anyone else is doing at all? You do you!!! If I owned a bike shop and there were no laws in my state prohibiting the type of ebike allowed on the paths I would sell every type of bike I could. There is something for everybody. It's a pointless discussion worrying about what someone else is doing. Biking is all about you doing you. Find the joy!!!!

 

[trailerguy52]

All of this concentration on equipment and how it is configured totally misses the point. The only thing that really matters is the behavior of the trail user. The equipment that they use is irrelevant. No one wants to share a bike path with dirt bikes, but when you get down into the weeds and start debating things like Class 1, 2, and 3 bicycles, the discussion becomes one among the various interest groups of people using bike paths and city streets. I knew a guy who was the head of a non-profit organization supporting a national recreation area near where I live. His famous quote that I remember was that every group of trail users has issues with every other group of trail users. In this context he was talking about such groups as hikers, horsemen, mountain bikers, etc. but the idea is applicable here.

Instead of focusing on minutiae such as what sort of equipment is on a particular bike, why not focus on how people behave? Is the throttle on a typical e-bike more offensive than the family group of 5 people who walk together blocking both sides of a bike path? Which is worse, some old geezer on an e-trike going 20 mph under throttle, or the club ride of acoustic bicycles going 35 or 40 mph and blocking virtually the entire path as they draft each other?

Unfortunately, it is easier to focus on simple things that can be documented, which explains why in an era of nanny-state enforcement you might get a speeding ticket on your e-bike while still riding very responsibly, but someone or some people blocking a path will suffer no consequence. Is this the sort of place you want to live in?

Good thoughts, the bottom line is to just be polite. It's hard to regulate being considerate.

 

[6zfshdb]

I guess maybe the question should be. If all factors are considered (complexity, reliability, performance, etc.) which assist system would you pick if you could only have one on the ebike. A throttle only or PAS only?

Again....I'm mainly interested in ebikes as a tool for real transportation so that should be considered when answer the question.

It appears your post has been misinterpreted.

If I were a commuter and had a choice between throttle only or PAS only, I would choose PAS. That assumes the PAS has both cadence and torque sensors. PAS only violates fewer local laws and you are less likely to be cited in many cities.

That being said, in reality commuters need both. A throttle provides the means of quickly getting out of an unsafe situation. Yes, PAS will give you the same level of assist but it may require changing settings and gears. This takes valuable time whereas the throttle is instant.

 

[AZOldTech]

A throttle provides the means of quickly getting out of an unsafe situation....

...or getting into one, as the many e-scooter injuries and deaths have shown (e-scooters only have throttle)... apples and oranges? Maybe...

 

[Solom01]

I think anyone would consider e-scooters to be different from bikes. Assuming the injuries per mile are actually higher (and who knows, no one has any info as to the average number of miles per incident - just click-bait every time something does happen) e-scooters have tiny wheels, different brakes, and a zillion other differences. To be honest this whole conversation seems strange. As far as I know no other form of transportation has people babbling about arbitrary speed limitations. ATVs, motorcycles, boats, cars, huge trucks, airplanes - in every case there are speed limits and rules that should be obeyed and fines if they aren't. The only car maker talking about limiting speed artificially is Volvo which says they'll limit it to 120 as of 2020) is getting tons of push back from people saying they would never buy a car like that. And the deaths caused by cars are much higher than bikes or anything else. It seems like this can be handled like everything else, fines and lawsuits against those who drive negligently and if for some reason people flip out due to the lack of regulation do like regular scooters, in most places 50cc and 30 miles or under don't require a license or registration, anything above does.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I think anyone would consider e-scooters to be different from bikes. Assuming the injuries per mile are actually higher (and who knows, no one has any info as to the average number of miles per incident - just click-bait every time something does happen) e-scooters have tiny wheels, different brakes, and a zillion other differences. To be honest this whole conversation seems strange. As far as I know no other form of transportation has people babbling about arbitrary speed limitations. ATVs, motorcycles, boats, cars, huge trucks, airplanes - in every case there are speed limits and rules that should be obeyed and fines if they aren't. The only car maker talking about limiting speed artificially is Volvo which says they'll limit it to 120 as of 2020) is getting tons of push back from people saying they would never buy a car like that. And the deaths caused by cars are much higher than bikes or anything else. It seems like this can be handled like everything else, fines and lawsuits against those who drive negligently and if for some reason people flip out due to the lack of regulation do like regular scooters, in most places 50cc and 30 miles or under don't require a license or registration, anything above does.

You are profoundly mistaken.

Nearly all EVs and subcompact cars have a built-in speed limiter.

I've been driving various Toyota products for 20+ years and all of them that I have purchased have a built-in speed limiter. Sometimes they also did weird things where you could actually go faster in 4th than in 5th.

My understanding is that all autos sold in the EU after 2022 will require a speed limiter.

 

[Ken M]

You are profoundly mistaken.

Nearly all EVs and subcompact cars have a built-in speed limiter.

I've been driving various Toyota products for 20+ years and all of them that I have purchased have a built-in speed limiter. Sometimes they also did weird things where you could actually go faster in 4th than in 5th.

My understanding is that all autos sold in the EU after 2022 will require a speed limiter.

Wow...I have heard nothing about all of Europe requiring speed limiters on autos sold post 2022. That will make high priced sports cars a lot less attractive to purchase.

My issue with ebike assist speed limits is that they were set in Europe below what most decent riders are capable of without assist and then the US was being pushed state by state to mimic those limits (most likely be the mid-drive manufacturers like Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, etc. so they could sell the same models in the US that they sell in Europe. I understand the desire for economies of scale but I also understand it's not very compelling to get people out of cars to commute on an ebike if the assist stops at 25kph. I understand that some people feel it's about safety but the full picture needs to be considered. For one, we need a great human scale transportation solution more then we need to worry about someone riding an ebike with assist higher than 25kph. i realize the Class 3 regulation allows for assist to 45kph but they are going to use that for requiring insurance, licenses, and registrations is the way I see it (hopefully I'm wrong about that but public sector workers want the pensions covered and this is a new revenue stream for them to go after). I'm not even going to comment about what insurance companies will do to all ebikers if insurance is required ... they will gouge like they do on everything else for those huge profits they want for the CEO compensation packages.

 

[Cowlitz]

I discovered that a throttle can be used to help pull you up a hill whilst you are running alongside. I stalled out on a hill and ended up doing just that. It was a short hill.

I have a couple of dicey intersections to deal with. The Radmini is a heavy beast of a bike and using a throttle to get speed up to get through the intersections is very nice.

 

[6zfshdb]

...or getting into one, as the many e-scooter injuries and deaths have shown (e-scooters only have throttle)... apples and oranges? Maybe...

Good point but a throttle is a tool. How you use it is up to you.

 

[Solom01]

You are profoundly mistaken.

Nearly all EVs and subcompact cars have a built-in speed limiter.

I've been driving various Toyota products for 20+ years and all of them that I have purchased have a built-in speed limiter. Sometimes they also did weird things where you could actually go faster in 4th than in 5th.

My understanding is that all autos sold in the EU after 2022 will require a speed limiter.

The EU regulates everything they possibly can...including the curvature allowed in bananas, and forcing broadcasters to air locally produced content which no one watches, which may explain why multiple EU members are having second thoughts about being in the EU. Rev limiters in Toyotas (and just about every car) are not there to limit speed in most cases but to protect their engines from being harmed by excess rpms. Anyhow, let's see how this plays out. Maybe Americans and Canadians will suddenly be inspired by EU desires and start driving mini cars instead of huge SUVs - but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[ilanarama]

I guess maybe the question should be. If all factors are considered (complexity, reliability, performance, etc.) which assist system would you pick if you could only have one on the ebike. A throttle only or PAS only?

Again....I'm mainly interested in ebikes as a tool for real transportation so that should be considered when answer the question.

Well, for me it would be PAS all the way (which is why that's what I got). I'm a long-term cyclist for both fun and utility. In my 20s and 30s I commuted by bicycle almost daily, year round (in Cambridge MA and then in Boulder CO). For the past 15 years I've worked at home and lived in town, and so most of my cycling has been mountain biking for pleasure, with the occasional utility ride on my mtb. I'd been thinking about a town bike, and moving to a mesa 300 feet above town was the impetus for buying an e-bike.

If I wanted a motorcycle I'd get one. (I had one in my 20s, but when I got into bicycling I found I rarely used it. If the weather was nice, I'd want to bike, and if I was going a long way I'd usually be with others, or camping, and I preferred a camper van to tent camping off the motorcycle.) A PAS is perfect for my current needs: I have panniers for grocery shopping, and I can now ride to the library and to the running club track workouts without having to work too hard on the way home. I pretty much leave the motor off or in eco except for when I have to go up the steep hill home. I don't have to deal with traffic - I live in a fairly small town. I am fit and able to ride, and that's what I like to do!

I can imagine that in the future when I'm less physically able, I'll be looking into a throttle, and possibly replacing my current mtb with an e-mtb. For now, the whole point of the e-bike is the bike part, and I'm super happy with the setup I have.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

It's odd to me that so many of the posts from the PAS-only bunch seem to suppose that if you had a throttle on your bike, you would have to use it instead of using PAS.

Is there a widely popular ebike with a throttle that doesn't also have PAS? It seems like a niche market to me.

We've had some posts from people who only use the throttle, mainly for reasons of physical impairment. Other than that, it seems like those of us who have throttles rely heavily on PAS, using the throttle in certain well-defined instances.

So why all the comments like "if I wanted a motorcycle I'd get one," as though the two are mutually exclusive? This puzzles me.

I don't see people who like throttles arguing against PAS, so it's not just the usual predictable human orneriness.

 

[ilanarama]

It's odd to me that so many of the posts from the PAS-only bunch seem to suppose that if you had a throttle on your bike, you would have to use it instead of using PAS....

So why all the comments like "if I wanted a motorcycle I'd get one," as though the two are mutually exclusive? This puzzles me.

See the post I replied to (and quoted), emphasis mine: "which assist system would you pick if you could only have one on the ebike. A throttle only or PAS only?"

I chose the bike I chose for other reasons, and if it had both, that would have been fine; the presence or absence of a throttle was not an issue. But I was answering the specific question posed above, which posited one or the other and not both.

 

[Ken M]

Just so everyone understands I consider a throttle just another form of Pedal Assist System (PAS) but one without sensors and programming to determine the assist level provided by the drive system. Instead the rider is in total control of the assist level and it's ultra simple (probably why gas pedals on cars and throttles on motorcycles have stood the test of time).

It seems many ebike riders think that a throttle ebike is for those that are not planning to actually pedal but a throttle does not prohibit as active ride as you get on any PAS ebike.

I just think that simple tends to be MORE reliable. A throttle does not require cadence/torque/speed/gear sensors that are common on PAS ebikes and they feed information to a program that someone wrote that "estimates" what assist level the rider wants. I have both a Bosch and Yamaha powered Haibike models that I like but there are times when the assist is not what I want. That is what prompted me to start thinking that given the choice of one or the other I would choose a throttle ebike (it's not about wanting to ride a pedal-less ebike it's about getting the exact assist I want at all times and knowing it's going to be a more reliable than a complex PAS system and a lot lower cost to fix should something go wrong). I think the is a lot more to this debate than most people want to consider so they go with the opinion they have been manipulated by marketing to have.